Apple vs. Real, Round, um, 5?
By Joshua Fruhlinger 
posted December 14th 2004 5:32PM
posted December 14th 2004 5:32PM
Remember how RealNetworks pissed off Apple by figuring out a work around that let you buy DRM'd songs from Real's online music store but let you play them on the iPod? Well, that's over. Pretty much as everyone expected, the latest iPod firmware update released by Apple makes it so that those songs do not work, again. Apple decided they would have none of that hackery nonsense and tweaked the iPod software again to disallow all that Real music. Happy Holidays!
Hold it, hold it, hold it. First off, you make no mention that this was a firmware update from a month ago, and it seems NO ONE noticed it until now. Furthermore, who is to say that Apple didn't change something completely unrelated, and Harmony broke? If they were really out to get Real, why didn't it break on 1st-4th gen iPods? AFAICT, it only broke the iPod photo and iPod mini, because they were actually adding features/bugfixes to those models. Doesn't look too sinister to me.
Reverse engineering breaks, especially when it's against a moving target (iPod firmware).
does anyone know if that update "fixes" the image hacks??
haha theyre really going at it.
I was this close to buying my first iPod but after reading this, I'm not so sure I want to. You can only load iTune mp3's into an iPod? What about mp3's from other music stores or Kazaa? Can you add iTune mp3's to non-iPod players? If so, wouldn't that make Apple a hypocrite?
Anybody who doesn't think that this was deliberate is a fool. Just another sign that all apple cares about is profit and not maximizing their customer's choices.
MP3's from Kazaa will work. You aren't **totally** restrict to playing music from iTunes.
"I was this close to buying my first iPod but after reading this, I'm not so sure I want to. You can only load iTune mp3's into an iPod? What about mp3's from other music stores or Kazaa? Can you add iTune mp3's to non-iPod players? If so, wouldn't that make Apple a hypocrite?"
The iPod can play any mp3, as well as a few other formats. This is about Real's reversed engineered ACC files.
Oh, and anyone who trusts that Real Networks was competent enough to reverse engineer the iPod so as to be future proof is a fool. And as #1 noted, there's maybe 5 people this effects anyway?
Zayo....mp3's are good....last i checked no store uses Mp3...kazaa tunes...go for it....iTunes music is mp4 i believe not the same thing and most windows based song sales are WMA.
Zayo Let me answer you question here itunes is supposed to be the only place you can BUY and dowload music fo legally. You can still take any mp3 you have on your computer and put it into itunes. Now itunes is different then the itunes music store. You can still just get an ipod and and kazaa and then take all the songs you have downloaded via kazaa and put them into your itunes wich will then put them onto your ipod. In fact some of the Peer to peer software out there will automaticly put any music you have downloaded in to iTunes(Limewire has this). Hope this helps. Go to the apple store and the employ's there can tell you all about it and you can try out all of the different ipods to see wich one you like the best.
I just bought my first IPOD(mini) and i transferred my mp3 collection to it flawlessly... and it has the latest firmware *AND* image hacks.
Why wouldn't Real Networks be competent enough to reverse Apple's simple drm packaging of the aac format. It is comments like these that give apple fanatics a bad name. There are other companies out there, and some of them are quite good. I'm sure those 5 ipod owners that actually gave the realplayer music store a chance liked what they saw, as the features of the store are very intuitive and ideally suited to introducing people to new artists and artist similar to ones they are already familiar with. Now you ipod owners don't have that option do you. Just another part of Apple watching out for their customers, right?
APPLE = MICROSOFT REINCARNATE
Can't you just simply convert the Real AAC files to MP3 from within iTunes, and then transfer the MP3 file to an iPod? Or has Real prevented the user from converting their AAC files to MP3s?
Ok, I think I got it now (and if I don't, someone please add a link to Digital Music for Dummies or something to help me out) MP4 is Apples own format of downloadable music files for iPods which somehow Real hacked and made available through their site? What does ACC DRM'd mean? Can you play iTunes on any portable MP3 player?
Looks like a few people are actually starting to get it. You cannot play iTunes songs on anything but iPod. Maybe you can convert them, but going from one lossy format to another is very bad. What happens if you build an extensive library of iTunes songs, then you decice to switch to a player other than iPod??? Sorry says Apple.
At least almost every device that works with Windows (save Sony and Apple) will play WMAs. So what is the better choice for purchased music?
Honestly, if iPod supported WMA, I would probably buy one. But I'm not letting Apple back me into a corner with their monopolistic BS.
Looks like a few people are actually starting to get it. You cannot play iTunes songs on anything but iPod. Maybe you can convert them, but going from one lossy format to another is very bad. What happens if you build an extensive library of iTunes songs, then you decice to switch to a player other than iPod??? Sorry says Apple.
At least almost every device that works with Windows (save Sony and Apple) will play WMAs. So what is the better choice for purchased music?
Honestly, if iPod supported WMA, I would probably buy one. But I'm not letting Apple back me into a corner with their monopolistic BS.
"Why wouldn't Real Networks be competent enough to reverse Apple's simple drm packaging of the aac format."
If you read what I wrote, I never said they couldn't reverse engineer it. They did. But honestly, for me at least, when I look at Real Player and its practices, I would not trust them to continually update their hack to keep things working. It sure isn't Apple's job to ensure they don't change something Real's kludge relies upon.
It's okay to like something as popular as the iPod, you know. It's that good.
see jeff for those that use an apple....an iPod works terrifically seamless interfacing....its everything i could ask for in an MP3 player....apple had done a terrific job of integrating it into windows as well....once they use iTunes they usually will use it for all their downloads....considering how iTunes is also becoming much more popular....alot more people are getting the iPod
bottom line ,
what "real" did is bad biz ethic ,
and if apple doesnt want "real" then thats their call.
dont blame apples huge market share on apple.
its the customers fault ofcourse,
for everyone i know has an ipod . . . even though they cant use real
or wma. you know why - because the all in one solution of itunes and the ipod is unbeatable . . .and if real has one or two features that are better, doesnt matter - because the ipod is it!
real just put yourself to bed,
i cant stand realplayer - worst type of stream ever.
Oh, and btw in general, I don't get the argument of locking yourself into an iPod because of the store. IF you use the store, and if a superior mp3 player does come along (bound to happen eventually, I suppose, unless the industry loses its mind and makes video players en masse), are you going to forget how to burn a music CD - perhaps a music DVD - and then rip your purchased songs into the 'next big thing'?
Are you even allowed to burn wma to CDs without DRM? (A serious question)
Just in case it wasn't clear:
iTunes and the iPod handle many DRM-free formats, including AIFF, MP3, Apple Lossless, and AAC (also sometimes referred to as MP4). These files can come from P2P networks, from websites, or they can come from ripping your CDs. But you can easily fill your iPod with songs without ever visiting the iTunes Music Store.
What we're talking about is DRM-enabled songs. With DRM in the mix, the iPod will only play songs from the iTunes Music Store. The format for these files is AAC (an open format invented by Dolby) "wrapped in" a DRM mechanism known as FairPlay (a propietary format owned by Apple).
Apple has stated that they (currently) have no interest in licensing FairPlay to other stores (and really, why would they be?). Real, pissed off by this, decided to reverse engineer FairPlay. Apple in retaliation warned that they made no guarantees that songs purchased from Real would work on the iPod in the future.
And here we are in the future. Apple's most recent firmware upgrade -- perhaps intentionally, perhaps not -- breaks Real's reverse engineering (or perhaps reveals its shortcomings). Any of you who bought a song from the Real store hoping to play it on your iPod can now be pissed off.
The other 5,999,995 of us really shouldn't give a damn.
re:21
so what if there are only 5 people in the world who actually uses real + ipod?
it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out Apple's business tactics have become monopolistic.
Some may say Apple has always bundled their HW with proprietary SW, but that was when Apple had 2% of the market.
iTunes and iPod changed all that.
One can make an argument that Apple is using its market share to 'rub out' the competition.
either Apple has to make iTunes compatible with other players, or iPod compatible with other services, otherwise it will have an army of anti-trust lawyers breathing down its neck, if not already.
The Apple-haters still have not answered a fundamental question: If Apple's true intention was to block RealNetworks (rather than simply adding features that revealed shortcomings in Real's reverse engineering), then why did they *only* do so on the iPod Photo and iPod Mini? If they were really actively trying to block Real, they would have released firmware updates for all iPods. They didn't - they released firmware updates for iPods that *gasp* added features and fixed bugs. Apple did nothing predatory here, as pretty much anyone with any technical skill (especially in software/hardware development) would realize.
Reverse engineering is almost inherently fragile - you're trying to rebuild something without knowing *really* how it works, making a lot of assumptions. Apple updated their firmware and some of Real's assumptions turned out to be wrong. Apple tested the new firmware with the things they support - iTunes, Mac OS X, Windows, MP3, AAC, iTunes music, etc, but they certainly had no reason to test Real. If you want your Real-purchased songs to work on the iPod, then yell at Real, who provided a broken tool to convert them.
Yes, Apple pretty much has a monopoly on music downloads and MP3 players. They've also been very clear that they have no intention of allowing WMA on the iPod, or iTunes-purchased songs on any other player.
You buy an iPod knowing this. If it bothers you, don't buy an iPod. The rest of us will enjoy our iPods, enjoy the music store, enjoy the seamlessness of it, enjoy the lax restrictions on the music purchased there (and burn a CD if we really want these restrictions removed), and get on with our lives. The rest of you (a rather small minority, given it took nearly a month for anyone to even *notice* this happened) can continue to whine and moan.
Stop the crying of "monopoly." A monopoly, in and of itself, is not illegal. If you want to compare Apple to MS, then you understand neither Apple nor the MS cases.
MS was taken to court by the government, Sun, Netscape, IBM, etc., for leveraging their monopoly illegally. For example: forcing the OEMs to make IE the default browser, or MSN the default ISP. By doing that, Microsoft forced the OEMs to do things they did not want to do (such as remove Netscape as the default browser, or run the MS-modified version of Sun's Java) or the OEM could be faced with MS pulling the Windows license. That is illegal - when one uses the monopoly power to play hardball like that.
In the Apple/Real case: this is not leveraging a monopoly. It is a monopoly, yes. But Apple is not breaking any laws by updating its hardware, via its software. If the iPod were being cloned, and could play any known format (MP3, AAC, OGG, AIFF, WAV, etc.) from any store (Napster, Real, Wal-Mart, etc.), then you have the beginnings of a case. Apple would then have to force the clone manufacturers to lock their iPods to only the iTunes store, or else they withhold firmware updates, for example. Then that would be illegal.
But, since Apple is the only one that makes iPods (the HP iPod is still Apple-manufactured and supported and HP simply resells its branded iPods), and they makes iTunes, run the iTunes Music Store, and have to deal with dozens of record labels, then they make the call since all of the items are their products, no one else's. And, yes, that is legal.
Don't like it? That's your choice. It's your right to vote with your wallet. Don't buy an iPod if you don't like Apple's way of doing business.
I recommend folks remind themselves of what a monopoly is. A monopoly is when a customer has no choice.
Is iPod the only digital music player? Certainly not.
Is iTunes the only place to download music? Nope.
So how is this behavior monopolistic? You have every right to go out and buy some WMA-enabled device and use it with a WMA-enabled store. And you'll probably pay the same price, if not less.
You like the iPod better? Well, you've made your choice.
iPod is p.o.s. Crap equalizer, no gapless playback, no way to download and show pictures directly from digital cameras. Only lemmings and pimps buy it.
you are absolutely right. Apple has not legal obligation to allow its products to be compatible with other services, or make its services compatible with other products. I would argue that they should though. The ipod has gained a monopoly through a admittedly slick interface, small size, sheek class symbol, and probably most people not even evaluating the competition and just buying the ipod because it is the one they have heard about. It might not have the best price, or the best audio quality, or the most features, or the most options for downloaded music/subscription plans, but whatever it is the most popular.
People should stop harping on apple. Their popular, so their customers will accept whatever features/functionality they decide to bestow on them.
The whole Apple/iTunes/iPod/Seamlessness argument always seems to creep into every argument. You guys do realize that WMP can automatically sync whatever you choose, whether it be all songs, popular songs, rarely heard songs, etc. Yes, it's automatic and seamless with Microsoft, too. Apple had it together sooner, but the argument is moot now, so put it away please!
nothing wrong with monopolyzing the market.
i'm saying, when a company is in a position to dictate the market, every move it makes is scrutinized, and lawsuits will be filed.
the shaky ground here is that Apple is using iPod to push iTunes, and vice versa. Plus it's keeping competition out of that loop, and it holds 90% of the market for both digital audio players and online music download service.
and that's enough for some to file a suit against apple IMO.
Well, now that this has degenerated into a general discussion of why Apple rules/sucks...
As long as you can only play iTunes-purchased music on an iPod, and as long as their compression renders those same files at a lower quality than CD audio, I won't be using the store. I have no problem with restricting the iPod so that it only works with iTunes (a free program), but restricting the store so that if the iPod stops being the best product I will have to choose between my own (paid for) music collection and using the best mp3 player is just unacceptable to me. It's a justifiable business decision (Apple believes, probably correctly, that they can make more money by using the iPod's popularity to force people to buy from iTunes instead of, say, Real) but not one that'll convert me. I applaud Real for at least trying to make their store compatible with as many mp3 players as possible--even if this isn't an act of charity, it gives consumers MORE choice, not less.
I'll stick with the iPod as long as it's the best mp3 player out there (and frankly I see that window closing in the next year or two) but I'm not going to chain myself to an overly-restrictive music store.
Real's Harmony technology convinced me to buy an iPod, as I already had 200 tracks purchased from the RealPlayer Music Store. I'll take a 192Kbps AAC file vs. 128Kbps any day of the week. Even Playlist Magazine agrees with me.
BTW, RealPlayer 10.5 rips CDs as 192Kbps .m4a AAC files by default. It so reads and writes CD-Text so you never have to enter a track name (unlike iTunes).
I have a friend who wants to buy TWO 40GB iPods. Maybe I will tell him to buy something else instead.
The whole argument that if you buy music on iTunes you can only ever play it on an iPod is of questionable validity. You can burn your iTunes songs to CD and rerip them into any format you want. In fact Apple suggests that you burn your purchased songs to CD in case something happens to your computer. If you have any plans to keep the music you paid for, you should be burning it to CD. Once it's burned to a CD, the DRM is gone. If you get a new MP3 player at some point down the line, just rip your CDs at whatever bit rate you want in whatever encoding you want and you're good to go. As for the less-than-lossless bitrate of the iTunes songs, well, you're paying about 30% less for an album there than you would for a CD, so I think it's a fair trade off (I'm no audiophile, though). If you want CD-quality music, buy CDs. But don't point your finger at Apple like they're the only ones who sell lossy music. Sheesh.
I'll just quickly address your points, kerry:
First, asking me to burn the music (at less-than-CD-quality) to CD just so I can approximate the experience of DRM-less music-buying is silly. I'm wasting CDRs and a ton of my time because of Apple's DRM policy. (And yes, it's at least as much the music industry's policy, and as DRM policies go, it's not really very restrictive... nonetheless, I'll rip my own mp3s at higher audio quality with no restrictions.) As soon as buying music online becomes more of a pain in the ass than buying CDs (as it still is, IMO) it loses its appeal to me. Your point about pricing is well-taken (and the fact that you can just buy the tracks you want is nice, also) but it's still not worth it to me. And of course Apple isn't the only one who sells lossy music--I'm not saying there are better music store options out there (although there are, if you're not desperately in love with your iPod). I'm just saying that iTunes isn't an acceptable alternative to amazon.com just yet.