Apple uses Trusted Computing techniques in its Intel dev kit
posted Aug 1st 2005 11:45AM
Not that it should come as any huge surprise, but apparently recipients of the Apple Intel Developer Kit DVD (which
has been "officially" leaked, and is on all the big torrent sites as we speak) have discovered that portions of Rosetta
do in fact use trusted computing techniques to ensure system integrity. Users have already begun on making workarounds,
but if you're familiar with trusted computing, you know that workarounds are only very temporary once the wheels of the
system get rolling. For those uninitiated with "trusted computing" and its many distracting monickers (Trusted Platform
Module [TPM], Palladium, Next-Generation Secure Computing Base [NGSCB], LaGrande Technology (LT), Secure Execution Mode
(SEM), Transmeta Security eXtensions (TSX), Embedded Security Subsystem, ThinkVantage Technology, SafeKeeper, Super
I/O, Core Managed Environment (CME), FirstWare Vault, ProtectTools, ActiveArmor, Padlock, etc.), it's basically a
hardware-based encryption mechanism that affords software and hardware companies complete and total control over what
software does and does not run on "your" machine. Besides making it theoretically impossible for viruses to infect your
machine, it also makes it theoretically possible for Microsoft to say, flip the switch off on any/all open-source
software, or in this case, for Apple to disallow x86 OS X to run on non-developer machines.
[Via slashdot]
I wonder how long before I drop Apple and move onto GNU/Linux then? I mean, all I do is use the thing for Apple gossip and porn... Oh wait, porn will be outlawed soon! Computers are stupid.
osx is based on darwin which is opensource, so it's quite possible that we'll be able to compile our own kernel with the trusted computing code disabled.
http://developer.apple.com/darwin/
http://www.opendarwin.org/en/faq/ch04s02.html
That's true Mike, except Darwin is essentially a form of BSD that is used mostly by Apple fans use when trying to set up GUI-less boxes for non-desktop applications (servers, embedded systems, whatnot). Aqua is what makes OSX unique, and that's not open source.
Nobody really cares about Darwin when you've got BSD and Linux out there, both of which are better supported and have a wider variety of software.
Trusted computing does NOT make it theoretically impossible for viruses to infect your machine. In fact, it will likely have no effect at all on malware. Maybe you were joking, but this isn't something to joke about.
Morwan, I know that, I'm just saying that it may be possible to inject a custom kernel into the standard osx install.
Yeah, but what do you think the chances of getting the Apple-compiled Aqua and OS X parts to run on a non-signed, non-trusted Darwin kernel?
This is a little misleading. The DRM is NOT in the OSX kernal. It is only in the PPC compatibility program Rosetta. Which is being licensed by Apple so the DRM may or may not even be something that Apple plans on using. That said, it is logical for Apple to use Palladium in OSX. But they haven't actually done it yet.
I'll never buy a machine based on the Trusted Computing Architecture, even if it's a Mac. If Apple goes to an all Intel lineup I'll have to just switch to something else.
The thing I like best about my current Mac is the flexibility to mess with the internals. If I no longer have that ability then the computer is useless to me.
of course they're going to charge less money for these machines that have limited functionality, right?
I doubt Apple will screw with this too much. They want to build market share, let developers have free tools, build stuff based on open source/standards.
Now, I could see them be required by the movie companies to include something (just like Fairplay for music). But then, it will also be required on every other platform (including Linux) or you won't get the content.
To Brian: By having a mac you are essentially locking yourself out of being able to buy any off the shelf PCI cards and software at your local computer store. How would this be any different?
To Everyone Else: As much as I support the tinkering of computers, I really do hope that they manage to lock out PC users from getting their hands on this software mainly because I'm a shareholder and I want to protect my investment. I am, however, well aware that someone will come along and break this hardware lock, but much like all the iTunes hacks, they will quickly be remedied.
Yeah, I really don't see the big deal here. You can't install OS X on a PC today, so why should you be able to tomorrow?
People by Macs for the operating system at least as much as they buy them for the hardware. It's what Macs are all about.
I think you guys are missing the point of thie article. They aren't saying that Apple will be using trusted computing techniques in it's intel devices... they're saying that the developer kits have the architecture built in.
Of course Apple wants PC users to install OS X... a broader consumer base is the whole reason for switching to intel based machines in the first place.
"By having a mac you are essentially locking yourself out of being able to buy any off the shelf PCI cards and software at your local computer store. How would this be any different?"
PCI cards are an issue of hardware compatibility. Hardware-based DRM is an issue of manufacturer control over *software*. If you don't understand that there's a difference then I have nothing but pity for you.
And the dumbest comment goes to.... #12!!
I agree with Steve (#12), Apple is making this move strategically. This is like chess, always think 3 moves ahead. In this case, move one is to switch to intel and get all the software working, move two is to make some core parts open source to fuel the decision for software devs to switch, and move three is to let normal intel users install it as an alternative OS. The marketshare would then be HUGE, but their hardware sales would slow down.
Also from what I have read, the "Trusted Computing" system does allow for certain adjustments to be made. Think about windows, you can change out say a hard drive and some ram, maybe add a new video card and a DVD burner and your fine, but switch the motherboard and whoops, you have to re-activate.
Just curious, but does anyone know how the whole dual-booting thing works? I mean, has anyone hacked together a bootloader?
I think I read an article somewhere that talked about the problems that would arise from installing both on the same computer. Something about the MBR and such,
I have to agree, #12 comment is pretty bad. Apple will not open OS X to the PC market in the near future. Apple is gaining marketshare regardless of its software to hardware lock.
#12 comment moves me to apply for a job at Apple Benelux in Bunnik !
I to agree that #12's comment makes no sense what so ever. Why would Apple want its consumers to run its software on some other box that is not theirs. Isn't that the reason why there are no "clones" running Mac OS. But I would love to dual boot some day.
#12 was in a whole during June....
They are doing this because of IMB had trouble making a G5 for thier Power Book and because Intel is cheaper AND will be faster. They don't plan on letting u use thier software with ur PC or they would have already released a intel copy.
Apple is postioning itself to compete directly with MS vis a vis software (or platform, it's the same thing). Like it or not, that's the future. Those that think otherwise: Come on, don't you ever get tired of being wrong? You were wrong about Apple's platform switch, wrong about PPC's superiority, wrong about who knows what else (since that seems to be your lot in life - to be wrong). I said it before and I'll say it again - wait and see. Deny all you like but, mark my words, you *will* see. (Oh in case it's not obvious, Apple can't come-out and reveal, this early in the game, their intention to compete against MS, or they'll be crushed.)
Now, has anyone tried this yet? There was an article on /. recently about multi-booting Darwin, XP, and Linux. It IS (?) possible (maybe I'll write a HOWTO based on that guy's original article).
Regarding the Trusted Computing DRM: don't think for even a second that it won't be thoroughly defeated. There's nothing, technically, in the implementation that prevents it, it's all in how, technically, to engineer the solution.
Finally, how wonderful it is to live in an era of Usenet indexing and Bittorrent. No longer is one required to go slumming on the wrong side of the tracks, waitng in line at the soup kitchen for slop (IRC), or frantically parse group headers to obtain the latest and greatest 53r45. :P
I'm done with InteliApple. Give me something new and better - please.
That's just the thing though, SK... there won't be anything new and better. Plenty of articles have been written about how Apple and Intel are both innovative and this will allow them to freely explore -- it's no joke.
As for the Apple OS being licensed for installation on standard PCs (#22), you're off your rocker. Mark your words. Right. They went through the licensing growing pains long ago and it makes absolutely no sense for Steve Jobs to sacrifice the OS functionality and hardware sales of Apple in order to Beat Bill.
The switch to Intel was an ineviteble (I was one of the few screaming for years that an x86 OSX really did exist), but it basically only removes the speed and manufacturing limitations Apple had with Motorola and IBM. This isn't a change in marketing strategy or operating infrastructure, not really. Licensing the OS would require a completely different approach, and not one Apple would be inclined to bother with.
wow, #12 is retarded.
Just like the copy protection of a playstation. palladium shit will be circumvented... just watch out with DMCA because you can't circumvent copy protection on the machine you own, just get the infineon chip out and put your own version of it in...
http://www.little-gamers.com/index.php?comicID=1153
Ahem, little Apple joke.
Uninformed opinions are about as useful as a bucket of warm spit. Before posting we should all take the time to understand - at least at a reasonably detailed level - exactly what the DRM technology being discussed actually *IS*.
Google TCG,TCPA,NGSCB,Trusted Computing or start here.
http://www.osx86.classicbeta.com/wiki/index.php/TPM
Now - as for my opinion...
This is a high stakes game and the players are just getting their invites. The switch to Intel just insured that Apple will actually be present *at* the game. How it plays out ? Well, none of us actually know what lurks in the hearts the men and women that will decide how to use power this "security regieme" will enable. If MS, Intel, and Apple abuse the public trust with this technology the dollars will flow elsewhere.
If the government abuses this stuff - and I pray it doesn't - god help us all.
I fear the freedom of information act may need revising in light of our new realities.
RP
I wounder where all these comments get there merrit. Not a single one of you in here have even touched an Apple / Intel dev box, nor the chances of any of you will in the future. You have not seen the finished product, you have not played with the beta at all, so why make comments that you know nothing about.
"I have had it with apple / intel, get me something better" I have something better for you, but to post it would be a threat and against the law. Close your mouths for a min and read the articles from the dev's that are useing the kits now. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE int he way OS X runs on PPC or intel.
You will never know the difference. So, untill someone has hard evidance that you are useing one, PLEASE Shut it and wait for the finished product to arive.
#12... You will never be able to instal OS X on a pc? They said you would never be able to install Linux on an Xbox either...
#29 gabe:
You are right, none of us have ever touched a development box, but Apple has publically said that OS X will not run on 3rd party PC hardware.
And yes, someone will probably install OS X on their PC, but in no way will Apple officially support it... it will be a dirty dirty hack, no matter what, and you start to lose the consistency of the Mac experience... Apple certainly won't help you get it working smoothly on brand-x hardware.
Why does everybody just assume that PowerPC processors are inherently inferior? The new Xbox and Playstation are using the PowerPC and Cell processors. Apparently they're good for something despite their insanely low clock speeds. The PPC vs. x86 debate is no closer to decided than it ever was.
I want to download and run Mac Os X on my pc...Please Link it to me