No HD-DVD games for Xbox 360 -- ever ever?

GameSpot is spreading this juicy rumor around, and it seems like it might just stick: the Xbox 360 supposedly will have no support for HD-DVD based games, even if (or when) a HD-DVD drive is released for the console. Apparently this little tidbit slipped out of Microsoft's own Yoshihiro Maruyama, their Xbox operations chief in Japan, in an interview with Famitsu Xbox, and though Bill Gates has hinted at the possible inclusion of HD-DVD for the 360 later on, it looks now like that's going to be a movies only affair. A rep with Microsoft declined to comment, and it seems unlikely because they'd just be shooting themselves in the foot here, but if this pans out it would mean Sony will have the upper hand in high capacity gaming discs for this console generation, especially late in the product cycle when those puny DVDs start to look positively CDian.

[Via Joystiq]

[knot_U @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

HAHAHA I knew it!

_____________knot_U

[Gil @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

So much for the format.
Blu-ray vs HD-DVD was a nice argument for forums.

[khaeos @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

2 words:

"Seriously Weak"

This just proves that the X360 won't be able to compete with the other next gen consoles. How can it be a next gen console if it doesnt take advantage of next gen features.

If it had HD DVD it would be a good competitor and it might have won. but now, i think its chances have DRAMATICALLY fallen (then again mayb because of its head start it might actually be a winner) but the fact that it doesnt support HDDVD jus sux.

mayb the Ps3 and Rev wont dissapoint.

Anyways, i dont plan on purchasing any console till all 3 are out and i can compare. That means 2006 end or 2007 by then the prices will have dropped and we can see the consoles at their best.

[qrayg @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Since the only benefit to HD-DVD is extra space and since no game has even come close to filling a normal DVD, why are people making a big deal out of this? There's nothing wrong with making games on the cheaper-to-produce DVD format and allowing movie playback on HD-DVD.

[Shin @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

grayg: exactly.

I consider the four posters above you as either fanboys or idiots.

[Dalvin @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Would it hurt you guys to stand up once in a while in your life and put in another dvd for your game? It wouldnt hurt me because that wouldnt take more then 30 seconds.

[Kobayashi @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Graphic card and RAM storage are main parts of a gaming system. So DVD or HD-DVD it is not something very important today,but for sure is going to be in future.

[bob goulden @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

I'm sorry, but don't any of you see somthing fundamentally wrong with making HD-DVD games, for a console that currently does not support it?

What about when those early adopters want to buy halo 3, but cant play it, because their 1.0 machines only have a DVD drive?

Microsoft made the dicision to stick with a format, they can't change that half way though a consoles life cycle.

[The1 @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

I do not see a problem with releasing games on both formats (DVD and HD-DVd). Heck, you can buy PC games on CD-ROM and DVD. I guess this move would piss off most early adopters.

[boden @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Resident Evil 4 shipped on two discs on Game Cube, seems pretty logical that that would be the way to go with X360, especially considering most folk will have a hard disk stuck inside theirs.

[enginerd @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Hi. Mr. Gates. We'd like to make FFXIII for xbox 360, but only if we can do it on hddvd is that going to be a problem.

one. sec. Steve issue a press release about the soon to be availability of xbox 360 hddvd games.

[BurntKona @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Because, in general, people are stupid and easily confused, and may well miss the diferent HD-DVD logo on the box, then wonder why it doesn't work in their console.

Lets face it, since the introduction of the CD as a videogame format, it has been pre-rendered video that has filled the discs up. I hope with the next generation, more will be done with realtime cut-scenes.

I don't see myself having a HD capable set for a good few years yet, either. DVD drive in the 360 suits me fine.

[Eric James @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

#5 : It has been said in an interview with Microsoft that Developers have already and still are complaining about filling up the DVD.

[Pip @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Considering games are nearly filling DVDs to capacity now, Microsoft really needed HD-DVD to compete.

Rockstar has already said they will be taking full advantage of the space they gain from Blu-Ray.

Which means the 360 will have no way of ever getting a port, or any port for that matter, of games on the PS3.

It's Nintendo 64 vs PS1 all over again. Cart based games or CDrom?

Who did the devs go with on that one? The more space the better.

[David @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

OK, to #6, what does being a fanboy have to do with it? M$ have done nothing really to further the console market since they entered it. Sony have several times revolutionised what we view as acceptable. As a gamer, I want the best experience I can get with it, both from a gameplay and pure visual perspective.

Why did we all buy the PS2 when it came out? Because the games looked much sweeter and gameplay was so much nicer because there was more data and more power. I can't wait for the PS3. HD here we come. Microsoft are certainly missing a trick with the 360. They could have gotten a big jump on Sony. No HD, no next Gen optical format.

I can't wait to start seeing where games developers will take the next gen over the next 12 months to two years. I know I'll be getting a new TV just in time for the release of the PS3.

Microsoft will lose again!!!

[Geir E @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Could I ask if someone forgot that the big difference with the current and coming generation is that the content now adresses a higher resolution, thus making video clip and game graphics more space hungry. Now Gamecube didn't really got shot in the foot for using a lesser sized dvd -format in the current generation - it made some games lack some of the eye candy the ps2 and xbox version had - but still. When going blu-ray or hd-dvd the extra space available is enormous and probably never in the coming generation will be utilized. but it'll be a possible edge.

So it's not that bad for xbox 360 never to have hd-dvd games, it's not that better adventage for ps3 to have blu-ray, but it'll make the ps3 have an edge to shine in a some cases the xbox 360 wont. But that's the cost for beeing first, just as less power and lack of harddrive was ps2s loss for beeing before the xbox this generation.

But i thought that games like miner 49'er was a great game on the c64, and I'm sure the amouth of space this webpage takes would host that give quite a great amouth of times.

The great thing about the coming generation is that Nintendo once again reminds the world about that fact. it's not the amouth of graphics, nor the high resolution that creates a great game. it's the gameplay. So I'll probably be one of the first to buy the revolution, and later buy a ps3 when i decide to get a hdtv television for the eyecandy.

And I've never owned a nintendo before, but dust have setteled on my xbox and i had a ps2 that i sold to someone who was more bored than me one weekend.

[Shin @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

David: I'll just ignore the fact that you said that Sony is revolutionary and just get to the point.

HD-DVD means only more storage. Games do not use that much storage, only if a game has waaaay too much HD video on it.

They never said they're ditching HD, just not using HD-DVD optical storage for games. Can you even read? The games are still im High Definition resolution. Heck, you can even store HD video on a normal DVD.

You do not deserve the title of 'gadget freak' if you got confused with the terms HD-DVD and HD.

[Zach @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

I just don't see HD-DVD or Blue-Ray being used in this next console generation. No way Sony or MS can offer a HD-DVD or Blue-Ray at a competitive price over the next year or two. It is just not going to happen, unless they want to price themselves out of the market. Sony will pull the Blue-Ray out of the PS3 and all of this talk about HD-DVD/Blue-Ray will not be a discussion again until 2010-2011 when the next consoles come out.

[John Doe. @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

LOL. You guys do realize that the PS3, the 360 and the Revolution will be with us for at least 5-7 years. If you think games aren�t going to increase in size with this next generation of processing and graphics power you are delusionally stupid. The fact of the matter is in all likelihood no game will use the full capacity of a DVD for the foreseeable future. I don�t know about you fanbois but I�d feel a hell of a lot safer in a $300-$400 purchase that has ample room to grow. Its ironic that you are calling the first couple posters fanbois when you yourselves are acting more like one then they are.

[kuroshi @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

No PS3 developer has announced that they will use the blu-ray format. the next gen format war isn't really related to games. current gen xbox games don't even fill half of a regular dvd. Unless you will be using tons of CGI cutscenes the space isn't necessary for games and don't justify the extra production cost. Sony has tricked you into beleaving that the format war matter to gaming because they are part of the format war. MS has no part in that war and are more focused on the console war. Sony is gambling with the ps3 so it can help them win the format war. If they win, it's more money than the console anyway. If they lose, the PS3 won't play movies.

[kuroshi @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

If you scan a game disc for data often less than a third of it will contain data. Current gen disc are not full. If we look to the PC, a hard drive and better compression are actually more important. The ps3 missed the boat of not supporting a hard drive for gameplay and it's compression technologies are not nearly as good. We will see gameplay from the ps3 in Dec. and the machine will launch next fall at the earliest. At that time we will see games that look the same as the 360 and none will be on blu-ray disc.

[neuro @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Their is really no big deal this just means a little less memory for games so waa i will still buy an xbox as soon as it comes out for several reasons exp:oblivian, and halo3.
On another note david u are a sony fan boy done deny it do not post if u cant even have an open opionion to others posts.

[John Doe. @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Ummm no. The only possible corrective action would be to release a new XBOX. If MS tries doing that before 2007-2008 at the earliest they are going to be eaten alive by their fanbase. Sure the tech geeks aren't going to have any problems dropping another $400 on a new XBOX but the people who live in the real world WILL. And there is NO way MS could introduce an addon for the XBOX. No addon for a game system has ever been introduced to a large enough population of game system that developers could just assume that everyone has one and base their game around it. If it isn't in the console at time of shipping it pretty much going to be a lame ass feature. Look at the addon hard drive for the PS2 vs. The built in hard drive for the XBOX.

[thomas @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

if they get their compression working ( i've read its spose to be 2:1) then it'll probably work out ok.. then a DL DVD can contain up to 17GB (8.5 x 2) so i think it'll be just fine.. remember even the newest pc games which are more hi def than x360 rarely go above the 4.5GB capacity of a single layer DVD..

[Gil @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Are you guys morons? No really... please tell me.
Take a look at GTA:SA. One DVD and no prerendered movies except for the intro movie. If they had included some better models in the game for cars and people they would have exceeded the one DVD limit.

Let's go back further in time: Baldur's Gate.
6 CDs (with the extra areas) and maybe 4 short prerendered movies. All the rest was content.

Hell take The Sims 2 - 4 CDs or one DVD.


Stop feeding yourself bullshit. How much time do you think it'll take them to outgrow DVDs?

[domer @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

This is such a non-issue for the 360. Microsoft doesn't want you playing movies from the 360. That's why it FULLY integrates with Media Center, so you can play your movie from your computer (get whatever high-def optical drive you want, blue-ray, HD-DVD etc.) and then stream it through your 360 into your living room. The PS3 will save you from having to buy a blue-ray player, but in a year (when you can finally get a PS3) you'll be able to download movies anyway (legally) straight to your computer and then stream them through your 360.

Most games don't even take up 1/2 of a DVD. The only developer that has complained is some Japanese developer who didn't have a 360 dev kit yet and didn't realize that they would use Microsoft's video encoder instead of their own bloated POS encoder. Their comments were to the effect of "our games take up a full DVD already", but they didn't actually make any games yet for the Xbox or 360. Even if a game did take up more than 1 DVD (probably likely by the end of the console's life), I doubt a developer or user would care if they had to swap a DVD once during game play. Users don't seem to care now when they release a game with 5 CDs instead of 1 DVD. The developer definitely won't care because it's cheaper for them to print 10 DVDs than 1 blue-ray disc and that's not going to change.

[Jeff @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

"HD-DVD means only more storage. Games do not use that much storage, only if a game has waaaay too much HD video on it."

Texture data in modern games is huge. The DVD format is already a severely limiting factor in this, on *current* gen consoles, at 640x480 and lower resolutions.

What do you think games are going to look like at 1920x1080 with either a bunch of 128x128 textures or a few 1024x1024 textures that repeat endlessly throughout a game?

Also, whoever said current games don't fill up DVD's now is just completely wrong. Plenty of games do, and there's not a developer alive that will tell you they couldn't use more storage space than they have available. Especially for any game with a large, persistent world (such as GTA, or any massively multiplayer online game).

What makes CGI look realistic is not the number of polygons, it's things like texture quality and lighting. I remember reading somewhere that the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park were only made up of something like 60,000 polygons each, easily within reach of real-time rendering these days. But the textures used on them were massive - far beyond anything you'd be able to store on a DVD and then have any space leftover for an actual game.

This will be a real limitation to the Xbox 360. And not in a few years; it will be a limitation *now*. If Sony can get developers to exploit the storage advantage the PS3 has (it's possible some will create textures for the lowest common denominator rather than building to each system's strengths), you will easily see the difference on day one, and the gap will probably widen over time.

[Wanax @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

@15 (David),

If you want to be taken seriously and not as a fanboy, you probably don't want to refere to Microsoft as M$. Here's some advice, all companies are out to make money, even $ony.

As for lack of innovation with the xbox... you must be an idiot. How about Live and having a HARD DRIVE?

[TJ @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

what? not come close to filling a dvd? hello? its not the only one but champions of norath filled a DUAL LAYER DVD....FILLED....as in used two layers...theres lots of other games that do very well coming close to filling and regardless are way over a regular cd....lets not forget that they have to keep it a little minimal to conserve space or people would bitch about too many dvds. think of all the super cut scenes tehyd end up packing on to a super sized HD-DVD or blu ray disc....

[jerome @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

I guess you guys are the ones who thought you'd never need a hard drive bigger than 20mb, yeah? I have spoken to the head of development at Rockstar on this very issue, and he expressed severe worries about the lack of disc space. Sure, if you don't want your games to get bigger and broader, stick to the 360. I quote him on San Andreas "we filled it right up, the DVD".

[Thayden @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

The Standard DVD format will become restrictive for next-gen games. With the increased power comes increased amounts of polygons and textures, which means more data to store. In a game like GTASA or TH American Wasteland, where the game world is massive and streamed, it is forseeable that the extra data required to take advantage of the extra computing horsepower will be more than a DVD can store. Swapping discs isn't really an option here, or at the least it will be really annoying, because the whole point of the streaming is that you can go wherever you want without breaks in the game. Imagine playing the next GTA and having to swap discs mid mission.

[Einhanderkiller @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Some games have filled a DVD.

Anyone remember STAR OCEAN 3?

That game was huge! It took up 2 DVDs!

[Tariq @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

The Xbox right now is very innovative, when in the past has a company implemented gameplay over the internet, and no Dreamcast doesn't count as they didn't do it successfully. The Xbox Live feature is why I play the xbox. It makes Halo 100 times better, and they even did a great job of making the lag free (I can get headshots all day long).

The point is, Sony is the company that has long kept gamers from utilizing the full potential of the system.

But in my honest opinion, I'll buy whatever system gets hacked first. There is no point paying 60 dollars for a game that you can buy for your PC for 20 bucks, and get free online play with.

Also, the only games that will EVER utilize the Blu-Ray will be the first party game developers like MGS, or GT. And they'll only do it to show people they did it on BluRay. MGS will have 500 cutscenes that will be all HD, so they will fill up a good part of that BluRay disc.

[James @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

It's quite possible that MS will release a game delivery system (via Live) in the next couple of years. The sooner developers get used to making 5GB games (rather than 20GB games), the better IMO.

Does anyone actually expect any PC games (excluding ones with mods) to use more than 10GB of HDD space in the next 5 years?

[J to the LOW @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Come on now, do people really want another Sega CD or 32X debaucle? Because adding a higher-end system "upgrade" later in the console's lifecycle would be just as stupid.

[Samuel Febres @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Does anybody KNOW the acutal ammount of space GTASA actually took up on a DVD?

[dij @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

"I spoke to the CEO of Rockstar, he said REEEE WOOOOO NRRRRRR FRRRG CRABAOOO NOWGEN WNU WOOOOOOO!!!!"

Seriously.

[nemi @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Some sensible comments:

If a console ships with DVD then it makes sense that all games stay on DVD, even if the console switches to a higher capacity drive (e.g. HD-DVD). This is because one 12cm optical disc looks like any other 12cm disc to the average consumer and there will be a lot of unhappy customers getting a HD-DVD Xbox360 game that won't run on their DVD Xbox360.

The Gran Turismo series on the Playstation / Playstation-2 is a fine example of storage requirements above DVD.

Gran Turismo 1 and 2 were CD based (700Mb) , Gran Turismo 3 was single layer DVD (4.5Gb), Gran Turismo 4 was double layer DVD (9.0Gb) to hold the additional content. As any player of both GT3 and GT4 games will tell you, GT4 has many, many more tracks and cars over GT3 justifying the increased storage requirements.

So, to summarize, on a high-end game like GT4 (almost?) all of a dual layer DVD is being used and this is for an "old console" (the PS2).

It does not take a revelation to realize that supporting exactly the same track and car content on a PS3 for �GT5� with improved graphics (more polygon/model data and more detailed textures) will quickly push the storage requirements over the 9.0Gb of a DVD.

Now on a lot of LINEAR games (level 1 -> level 2-> level 3 -> etc.) swapping out a DVD is no hassle. But on a non-linear game (MMOG, Racing game with track and car choices, etc. etc.) you have little option but to stream extra content from the internet or really annoy the user with constant disc swapping or reduce the scope / quality of the game.

[aural @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

who cares. the 360 will still be able to use DVD9 - that is MORE than enough space. I just dont see a game developer creating a game that uses 20+ gigs worth of data.

[jerome @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

I couldn't care less whether you believe me or not, but I worked on GTA:LCS for the PSP on a small detail of the game, and I was working with the head of development for Rockstar. We had a conversation about it, and that's what he said.

[Eagle117 @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Some of the people are right on the money. Microsoft is doing this so they don't alienate the people who buy the original consoles. Asside from Sega, what other console has switched formats without releasing a new console? It wouldn't make any sense for 3rd gen games to require a HD-DVD drive and force all users to upgrade their drives to something new. If/When Microsoft offers a new drive for the 360 it will be for movies and at that time there will be a clear winner or at least someone Microsoft is backing fully.

Some people bring up games that are currently using most of a DVD capacity but most of those there are no reasons for it to be that large or it is all pre-rendered movies. Star Ocean 3 is on two DVDs but I don't understand why. It wasn't all that specatular looking. Half-Life 2 was much better looking and realistic and it fit easily on a DVD, so manufacturers can get a lot of game to fit on a DVD, especially if they go dual layer.

Stop looking at this as a negative, and look at it as Microsoft trying not to confuse the customers. If a game can be released on XBox, PS2 and Gamecube's little disk format all at the same time, they can work around putting a game on DVD and BluRay at the same time. Customers dont' really care if a game is one or two DVDs long.

[Tariq @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Another thing that people are not debating is the whole Live issue.

Xbox has already established itself as the forerunner in this service with the original Live, and has an updated one for Xbox 360.

Playstation left it up to the game developers, and I haven't really heard anything great about it. I am curious to see what Sony has in mind for the PS3 launch.

I am guessing that with the time crunch of releasing a system by Fall next year, that they won't have the time or the resources for a Sony Live network, thus leaving it in the hands of the game development comapanies once again. This will be very bad for Sony.

[kuroshi @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

You are all listing ps2 titles. GTA san andreas xbox disc does not scan full. didn't scan the ps2 version. MS asked developers what was important and they all thought more ram and cache, not storage capacity. Next gen games will be limited by thier ability to process not by storage. A machine can only process so much at one time. You can only program in so much resolution, texturing, physics, and AI. If you program in too much the processors cannot maintain framerates. If you had unlimited storage you could program an amazing game that no machine could actually run. Movies the data is simply read, and games the data has to be processed in real time. Processing power, cache, compression ratios matters not capacity. Oh and by the way the blu ray drive is currently a 1x to save cost. Slower drive speeds = longer load times

[jerome @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

i think it's more a case of Bill realising the party's over for HD-DVD (it is) hence his speech the other day about everything being online and these being the last of the disc formats...only he's 5 years ahead of the rest of the world. X-Boxes were good DVD players, it's a shame they won't be HD video players as well.

[Tenken @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

There are also many rumors going around about the potential cost of the PS3 games, which may be around $70-$80! Given that the Xbox 360 is coming out MUCH earlier than any other next gen console, and that disc swapping isn't an entirely difficult mechanism to implement, I honestly don't see a problem with this. Most games don't need to contain all of their data on a single disc, although having ten times the space on a disc would be useful for games that need a continuous world. Then again, MS could always give those games the ability to work with the HD. Consumers who want the convenience of not swapping discs and don't have the HDD can simply upgrade. It's a much easier upgrade than the new HD-DVD drive.

[Jacob @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

"Since the only benefit to HD-DVD is extra space and since no game has even come close to filling a normal DVD, why are people making a big deal out of this?"

Speed. Think: Load times, streaming data.

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray both have speedier data access times than normal CD.

One developer was already bitching that he won't be able to take proper advantage of the speed of the HDD because of the lame HDD-less "core system" splitting the market. Now there's THIS...

[jerome @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

and the lame system also doesn't do HD output properly. they are idiots.

[Xbox360-forums.com @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Glad my xbox 360 i'll get on launch won't be made obsolete.

[Pip @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

Oh god, swapping DVDs to the HD is not a valid solution.

It's like i'll be back on my C64 again. Where did floppy #4 go?

The fact is, Rockstar has mentioned several times, they will use all the extra space on a Blu-Ray disc.

Hell, even showing an HD prerendered movie, which will be common will take up huge amounts of space. Factor in the high resolution textures for 1920x1080 resolutions and we're talking some serious space requirements.

[qrayg @ Dec 19th 2005 2:31AM]

@digem

Even developers of 360 games stated that they would never need more space than what's on a normal DVD. HD-DVD is not needed in this generation.