Time Warner won't provide CableCARDs for Series 3 TiVos?

Remember how TiVo recently sent that letter to the FCC and cable operators telling them to be prepared for the Series 3 rollout, partly because of reports that some providers were refusing to hook up beta testers with the necessary CableCARDS? Well now it looks like the company's concerns may be completely legitimate, as a complaint on the website ConsumerFury contends that Time Warner Cable's Raleigh division responded to a recent customer inquiry on the matter by stating that "Time Warner Cable of Raleigh does not provide support for or allow TiVo devices on our cable network...CableCARDS will only be installed on cable-ready, CableCARD-slot-available television sets." Pretty harsh, especially considering the fact that Time Warner's policy may not even be legal: federal regulations concerning CableCARDS seem to indicate that providers must support them for any unidirectional TV, set-top-box, or recording device connected to a digital cable system. We certainly understand that cable companies see TiVo as a direct competitor to their own DVR offerings, but we're not sure that alienating customers with such a hard-line stance is the best move; after all, isn't a customer who brings his/her own DVR to the table better than no customer at all?

[Via TiVoBlog]

[Lou @ Jul 26th 2006 9:40PM]

Ridiculous. The law seems to only apply to content users. Providers can do what they want and sue who they want.

I'm still holding out for TiVo Series 3, hopefully Comcast won't pull the same thing.

Also, do you have to tell them what you are using it for, why can't you just say it is for your tv.

[jeff @ Jul 26th 2006 9:41PM]

I had a feeling this would happen. I don't think its legal though.

[AndrewNeo @ Jul 26th 2006 9:42PM]

I would say this is on the same line as saying something like "we do not support or allow (Sony|Panasonic|RCA|etc) TVs on our cable network.." Yeah, it's probably illegal. Hope TiVo contests it.

[Harold @ Jul 26th 2006 9:49PM]

This really sucks! I am a TWC subscriber and their DVRs are just terrible. It's not as if they have actually tried to provide a comparable product of any quality. I guess they realize that their crappy tchnology can't compete so they're forced to just refuse any competitition because they can't win in the marketplace. What a joke of a company!

[Chuck @ Jul 26th 2006 10:06PM]

Lou, I think you can't just get a card and plug it in as there is some sort of network verification procedure that has to be done by the technician. Here and in all places I know of, Comcast won't just hand you the card.

[mjsmitho @ Jul 26th 2006 10:08PM]

I looked up the Wiki on CableCARD and apparently a "technician' installs the card and reports the card and the TV's unique IDs. This gives them the power to say we do not "support" said device.

Much like Comcast and other Broadband providers use to say Macs are not "supported".

[Chris @ Jul 26th 2006 10:20PM]

to sales rep: "I'd like a cable card for my new {insert valid brand and model tv that you don't have}"

tech shows up: "I decided to get a series3 tivo instead"

if they are anything like charter, the techs are outsourced and underpaid and don't give a rats ass what you do with the equipment. the tech's also tend to be a bit on the geek side and would likely jump at the chance to play with a series3 for a bit.

[Cubedmind @ Jul 26th 2006 10:31PM]

Lou:
You cant just say its for a tv since (Atleast for TWC Northeast Ohio) when you ask for a cable card, they ask for make and model of TV, Send an actual TWC tech (Not a contractor), and do the install for you. They do this for two reasons:
1. Your average TV owner dosnet want to deal with installing the card and getting the cable hooked up properly, getting the Host and CableCard ID, and calling it in.
2. Cable cards are MUCH more sensitive to any line faults, and will come out in the form of digital breakup. If a tech installs it, he can diagnose the problem, repair or replace the line, and make sure the subscriber is getting the best quality.

[Ian @ Jul 26th 2006 10:53PM]

TWC is lame. Here Comcast just hands the things out like candy. Walk into the Comcast Store, ask for two cable cards they say "sure" and give them to you.

I'm fairly certain TWC is not abiding by the law here. The TiVO had to pass a Cable labs certification process and as such is perfectly legal. I don't see how TWC can refuse something that has been certified by the standards body that represents the cable industry.

[Sam @ Jul 26th 2006 10:56PM]

I wouldn't be worried. I am 100% sure that cable companies can not refuse to support the TiVo in this case.

Not letting TiVo use the CableCARD is like Microsoft saying that you can't install XP on a DELL. It would be using a monopoly situation to destroy another business, and the FCC won't stand for that BS.

[Bill Gates @ Jul 26th 2006 11:01PM]

ANTITRUST SUIT!

[Taylor Alexander @ Jul 26th 2006 11:46PM]

Yeah, especially since they provide some kind of DVR already... it's not like they can even say they are against DVR's, under some guise of protecting their network friends, they are just flat out monopolizing the situation.
-Taylor

[Alex @ Jul 27th 2006 12:06AM]

Bitches.

[Cliff @ Jul 27th 2006 12:35AM]

I live in their mid-south division. It's going to soon be comcast. Hopefully it will only get better from there...

[Jim N. @ Jul 27th 2006 1:04AM]

This is probably because the cable company DVRs are moving to a no fast forward button. But TIVO probably wants to keep theirs so that is why they are black balling them.

[rhamej @ Jul 27th 2006 1:10AM]

Time Warner = AOL. And this comes as a suprise?

[BillyBob @ Jul 27th 2006 1:11AM]

>>1. Your average TV owner dosnet want to deal with installing the card and getting the cable hooked up properly, getting the Host and CableCard ID, and calling it in.
2. Cable cards are MUCH more sensitive to any line faults, and will come out in the form of digital breakup. If a tech installs it, he can diagnose the problem, repair or replace the line, and make sure the subscriber is getting the best quality.

[Matthew Boyd @ Jul 27th 2006 1:17AM]

I would hate cable companies a lot more if telecom companies didn't make them look angelic in contrast.

[BillyBob @ Jul 27th 2006 1:17AM]

Oops - apparently you can't waste time quoting...

That's pure CableCo BS. It's one thing to *offer* the install service, and another to *require* the service. This reminds me of the early days of DSL service, when onsite installs were required. Now they just send you a box of HW and a set of instructions - and guess what? The majority of people either figure it out, or find someone to figure it out for them.

[Wil @ Jul 27th 2006 2:37AM]

Lou #1), I'm a Time Warner customer in NY and while I don't currently use Cable Card, what I read in the past said that one of their service people have to come and somehow pair the Cable Card with the device you want to use (box or TV). This prevents the card from being arbitrarily used with another device... say your friend's TV I guess...

[hawk @ Jul 27th 2006 7:14AM]

Yeah, who'd want to allow arbitrarily using a cablecard with a friend's TV? that'd be terrible! it'd be theft! it'd steal profits!

Customer-enabling technologies need to enable the customer, or else they're just profit protection. Not even IP protection - IP protection is just profit protection.

[adammhaile @ Jul 27th 2006 7:44AM]

Despite that I do agree that this is illegal...since anyone who would benefit from the new HD Tivos would most likely have a CableCARD ready HD TV, couldn't they just have TimeWarner install the card in the TV, then pull it out and put it in the TiVo? The cards aren't locked down to a single device are they?

[William Higgins @ Jul 27th 2006 8:31AM]

And for a bit of irony.. if you check out the link to the post on the TiVoBlog.com there is a big fat TimeWarner Cable banner add going right along with this post. Funny.

[Rox @ Jul 27th 2006 8:48AM]

CABLECARD and the STB are paired up to make sure there is no vulnerable hardware such as the infamous Dreamboxes on the network. I doubt there is any other reason. Ad skipping is really not all that big of a deal.

[Alex @ Jul 27th 2006 9:09AM]

William,
I've got to admit that it is pretty funny :)

[Chris @ Jul 27th 2006 9:21AM]

Just another example of why we need legislation forcing cable companies to open up just as the phone companies have been forced to do.

Lack of competition in the area (satilite service not included) seems to be hurting the customer. Maybe with fiber to the home we'll see less of this shit from the cable providers...granted that said provider does not own the fiber.

[Aaron @ Jul 27th 2006 9:35AM]

This is incredibly inaccurate. First, the Series 3 Tivo is not available yet, therefore it is not supported by TWC or Comcast or anyone else for that matter. Cable companies are required by law to provide a CableCARD for a supported device. Once the Series 3 is actually available and on the supported devices list, they will put a CableCARD in it (because they have to). Case closed!

[matt @ Jul 27th 2006 10:00AM]

i work for time warner cable in NYC...

1) when you install the cable card into a device you have to give TWC the host ID of the device, so taking it out of a tv and putting it into a tivo won't work to well for you

2) cable cards in general suck ass.... you end up losing your channel programing all the time and there's no real fix for it, becides rebooting the device, or reseting the card. Time warner knows this and probabbly doesn't want to deal with people calling all the time about how they couldn't record this or that show becuase the card keeps messing up on them

3) Harold, i'm not sure why u hate the time waner DVR's so much, but most people i've talked to like them more then the tivo's.

[@ Sep 21st 2006 12:46AM]

Matt, I could tell you howe much the TW DVRs suck, (as could several other folks on here whose opinion is not biased by paycheck) but perhaps reading this would help:
http://www.davehitt.com/march03/twdvr.html

I found this after trying one for three days. Then I bought a Series 2 and am happy as a clam--the UI is easy and intuitive, the Season Pass manager manages, the conflict resolution is simple and clear, and in general it does what I need when I need it and I have not had a single issue since installing my Tivo. My friends with the TW box gripe all the time about missed shows, bad conflict resolution and more. And as far as CableCards go, TW should distribute a good one. Period. I don't need a guide, nor PPV nor addressability, I just want cable without paying $100/year ($8/month) for the rest of my life for a STB I don't need. Just give me the damn digital feed and let me Tivo it to filter out all the crap I don't want to watch.

[scott @ Jul 27th 2006 10:19AM]

The SA8300HD is a POS. All of TWC's DVRs are total crap. The UI is horrible, the season pass isn't really, and the system is just not intuitive. I have one, and my picture goes all pixelated once maybe twice per show. I had one problem with my DirecTiVo in six years of use. ONE PROBLEM! I've had TWC for 2 months and have had to call 6 times! Twice was for the broadband though, so i guess its not _that_ bad...

TiVo is far superior to any DVR on the market (notice i said market). TimeWarner is stupid for not even allowing these devices on its system. Scientific Atlanta produces horrible devices that work some of the time. Not to mention TWC has some of the worst customer service i've ever encountered. The only reason i'm using it is because there is a tree blocking the southern sky...outside my apartment, otherwise, i'd have DTV.

[Big Sam @ Jul 27th 2006 10:45AM]

The Time Warner DVRs are notorious for crashing dying too. Then again, so are Comcast's DVRs. It's really sad when my Windows Media PC is the most stable DVR in my house. If only I could put a cable card in it... I wonder if a Vista WMPC will be "supported".

[John Laur @ Jul 27th 2006 10:54AM]

@Cubedmind:

You either work for a cable company or are deluded by one. Your comment is a shill and your statements are completely false.

@matt:

It sounds to me that some major cablecard use would start getting cable co's to start using cablecards that *dont* suck. You don't after all just buy "The CableCard made by CableLabs" -- a CableCard is a class of product produced by a company for the purpose of decrypting a QAM bitstream. If TWC elects to pass cheap and shitty cards onto its customers, that's their decision, but I'd imagine if 40% or 50% of their customers actually used them they'd step up and use better quality equipment.

Of course it's not always the CableCard's fault when there is a problem.. the QAM tuner in the television itself is responsible for tuning the signal, and as such if it provides a bad bitstream to the card, there's not really that much the card can do about it. If the cable co's own set top box has a better tuner, so be it, but rest assured that a Series3 TiVo will have a quality part inside -- probably every bit as good as the one in the STB.

[Harold @ Jul 27th 2006 11:42AM]

matt, the TWC DVRs are awful.

1. I have had three of them (one being an HD one) and I have three friends with HD boxes. They crash and reboot all the time.

2. They are not "intelligent" in the way they record shows. With a TiVo you just set up a season pass and it records the show automatically without recording every repeat etc... It is a pain in the butt trying to set up a show to be recorded properly on the TWC DVRs. You either have to make them only record at one time of the day or whatever, it is not intuitive like TiVo where you just press one button and the box figures everything else out.

3. The HD boxes just don't work. Sometimes you try to playback a show and the thing just crashes and resets. More often, the sound and video are not synced or the sound continually stutters. Also, I'm not sure if it's the HD feed or the boxes but there is always an incredible amount of pixelation.

My roommate had a Series 2 TiVo before I got any of these boxes and it is BY FAR the best DVR I have ever used. No question, and this was years ago. The TWC crap hasn't gotten any better over the years either, it still sucks and the system is buggy.

[Robert Aitchison @ Jul 27th 2006 11:52AM]

I'm sure that Time Warner knows that the consumer really has no choice. Since in practically all areas consumers only have a single choice for a cable provider, and the Series3 won't work with Satellite.

Assuming this is legal this policy will without a doubt move more crappy generic Time Warner DVRs to people who would otherwise choose the Series3.

[Wry Cooter @ Jul 27th 2006 12:29PM]

I think it is legal for Time Warner to say they are "Not going to support" them. That is not the same as saying, you cannot use them. There may even be a chance that they will work without any problems.

[Geno @ Jul 27th 2006 12:49PM]

From everything I have heard about this, it seems like this came from a low level tech support person that didn’t know what they were talking about.

I believe cable companies have to offer cablecards for any CableLab approved device. Which the Series 3 is one of.

I could be wrong but that’s how I am to understand it from what I have read.

[ipicu @ Jul 27th 2006 1:45PM]

*Matt,
Hate to be a "me-too" guy, but I do think the DVRs offered by TWC suck. I actually think their service here in the Twin Cities is great, but it is a shame I have had to use it so much. I own a TiVo as well on another non-HDTV, and the pain of using a SA8300 is enough that sometimes I watch things in standard def rather than dealing with the sound pops, pixelation, dropped shows, crappy user interface, etc, etc....
Peter

[Jonathan @ Jul 27th 2006 1:52PM]

Will Windows Vista Media Center’s that support the CableCard also be refused? If Time Warner or any other cable company refuses to support a CableCard device, they will only succeed in driving customers away to other services. This is an especially dumb move, when more and more prime time shows are available for download through legitimate and illegitimate services such as iTunes and torrents. Place/time shifting is here to stay, if you try to limit consumer choices, the alternatives are only a few searches and clicks away.

[Talkstr8t @ Jul 27th 2006 2:31PM]

I have a contact in the TWC executive offices. I contacted him. His response was that TWC's policy is to provide CableCards for any verified UDCP and that they'll straighten things out in Raleigh. There is, however, apparently some controversy as to whether the Tivo Series 3 has been fully validated.

[belcho @ Jul 27th 2006 4:23PM]

I'm calling BS on this one. I don't think the companies policy is to not provide cablecards for Tivo. I figure it was just some uninformed rep who didn't understand what they were saying. Ignorance is bliss huh?
I work for a large cable company and we don't have any policies against giving out cablecards. Although they're crap. Cablecard 2.0 Could be cool though.
And oh I don't have any problems with my SA8300HD, it works just fine.

[matt @ Jul 27th 2006 5:36PM]

ok... a couple of things about the time warner DVRs

1) the 8000's are completely garbage. if you have one trade it in for the 8300. the 8300 is almost as fast as the regulare digital boxes and the hard drives don't crash nearly as much as the 8000's do... plus the search feature on the 8300 makes much more sense

2) as far as cable tv and box recording goes.. for a cable company i believe that the cable companies own dvr's make much more sense the tivo's. for one thing they are a dual tuner box that uses the same interface that every cable customer understands. plus, can you even record HD on a tivo box using a cable company?

3) i'll bet alot of people's compaints about the box are really complaints about the signal from the pole. Everyone's immediate response to a problem with their cable is that the box is bad. yes, the hard drives fail alot on these boxes, but being a tech i know how many awful techs there are out there that will just swap a box instead of finding out if there is a damaged cable.

4) most cable customers are casual users. a large company is not going to buy the best equipment if they are leasing it to their customers who don't know the difference. when the cable companies DVR breaks you dont' pay for the new one they bring you

[Lou @ Sep 22nd 2006 1:10PM]

Most times it's because you speak with an uninformed rep. A no can always be turned into a yes, a yes cannot be turned into a no, and an "I don't know" just makes you look stupid. So no will always be the first answer.

[trlauer @ Nov 16th 2006 4:27PM]

I had an HD DVR from TWC, and the instant I got it last year, I hated it. The sound was completely distorted, and the picture was so pixelated that I could not watch anything recorded. It also rebooted all the time. I took it back and got a new one from TWC, and had better experience with the second one.

That is not to say I loved TWC's DVR. I still hated it. The UI is not easy to use. It recorded repeats so often it took me minutes every day to delete the shows because I had already seen them. I ended up having to spend quite a bit of time scrolling through the horrible TV Guide part of the UI to find the show and then just stopped all recording so the program.

I went with the TWC DVR last year as a second DVR in my house while I waited for Tivo to release the Tivo Series 3. The first DVR I had (and still have and still use and still love) was a Tivo series 2. The Tivo series 2 was the primary DVR I used in the living room while the second DVR, the one from TWC, was put into the bedroom.

I just received my Tivo Series 3 two weeks ago, called for an appointment for a tech to come out and install three cable cards, one for the TV and two for the new Tivo Series 3. I also requested the tech take the TWC DVR back. I could not get rid of the TWC DVR fast enough! LOL

I had the Tivo Series 3 all setup and waiting for the cablecards the day the tech was due out. I would have preferred to have gone to TWC's office and picked the cablecards up myself, but TWC insisted a tech has to do it because it's "difficult." LOL Yeah, right, and I need a tech to change my TV channel too! (that was rhetorical). The tech came out and I took him into the living room. I gave him the installation guide from Tivo on how the cablecards are supposed to be setup. I left the room for a few minutes, and when I came back, he was trying to get the cable cards to authorize. The cablecards weren't authorized, and he was telling me that we should really go with TWC's DVR because it's so much better, we'll get to keep Video-on-demand, their TV Guide, Pay-per-view, etc. I told him flatly, "No. Time Warner Cable's DVR is horrible." He went on and on about how everyone else liked them etc. I told him that those other people have obviously NOT tried a Tivo.

After about an hour, the tech could not get the cable cards to authorize and left. The cable card for the TV however authorized right away. I called TWC back a couple of hours later and said the tech left without getting the card to authorize. They setup a call for a tech to come out the next morning, which he did.

As soon as the tech came and saw the Tivo, he said TWC does NOT support Tivo. I told him, "I know that. Tivo supports Tivo. Time Warner supports the cable cards and it's Time Warner's job to get the cable cards to work." So, he changed the cable cards out, and could not get them to authorize. The tech left without getting the cable cards to authorize, and I told the tech I would call Tivo just in case Tivo support was aware of something the tech and I were not aware of.

I called Tivo that night (which was last night), and while I was on hold, I decided to take a look at the back of the Tivo to check to make sure the cable cards were pushed all the way in, etc., and right away I noticed the coaxle cable was screwed into the top coaxle outlet on the Tivo Series 3. I hung up the phone immediately because I KNEW what the problem was at that point. The first tech tried so hard to get me to use TWC's DVR that he had, while I left the room for a few moments when he first arrived, unscrewed the coaxle cable from the bottom coaxle outlet which was the correct one I had screwed the coaxle to when I set it up to the top one which is for an antenna. It's no wonder the cable cards weren't authorizing! They weren't getting any signal at all from the cable company because the tech switched the coaxle to the wrong coaxle outlet on the back of the Tivo Series 3.

I called TWC and asked the rep to unpair and repair the cards, one at a time of course, and the first one instantly authorized, but the second would not authorize. The TWC rep setup a call for today to replace the second cable card. The tech came out today, and as soon as he put the new cable card in and paired it, it received authorization right away.

For anyone looking to order cable cards for their TV and/or their new Tivo Series 3, the cable companies IMMEDIATELY try to persuade you to keep your set-top box AND to get their DVR. Don't fall for it. When the reps from the cable companies fail to get you to take their huge klunkly set-top boxes or their much inferior DVRs, they screw around during the install to make it look like, in my case, the Tivo Series 3, would not work. I even had two TWC employees, one on the phone, and one of the three techs that came out, tell me that Tivo is not supported. Don't fall for it. Cable Cards DO work in Tivo Series 3 AND in TVs.