http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/ Engadget Comments for Alterna-fuel RV takes family cross-country on $47 of diesel http://www.engadget.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.engadget.com en-us Copyright 2012 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
RV'ing is a growing industry. If makers are going to continue selling these traveling homes, they're going to have to do something about fuel economy or offer a new, less expensive, source of power. The alternative is to continue to cater to only those who have very deep pockets. I don't like paying $5.00/gallon or more for fuel, but it will help all of us adjust our behaviors, and perhaps attitudes, regarding alternative energy.]]>Jun 7th 2008 12:54AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/Dec 10th 2006 1:36PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
Anita]]>Dec 10th 2006 1:51PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/Dec 10th 2006 1:52PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
Actually there are a few bands touring in vegetable oil-powered buses. mewithoutYou has been touring in a converted Greyhound bus for a couple years, and Piebald also tours in a van powered on vegetable oil.]]>Dec 11th 2006 12:51AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/JJ]]>Dec 10th 2006 2:18PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/Dec 10th 2006 2:11PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/Dec 10th 2006 2:24PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/Dec 10th 2006 2:25PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/Dec 10th 2006 3:24PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/Dec 10th 2006 3:39PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
Actually all consumers should have the option to convert when buying new or used cars, so one can specify diesel/vegetable, or waste vegetable oil, or solar. I admire the young people who think of their mother earth planet.
]]>Dec 10th 2006 4:10PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/Dec 10th 2006 5:50PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
Just my two cents.]]>Dec 10th 2006 5:30PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=svo+conversion&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Ususally if you filter with a 5 micron filter and your waste oil source is good, and you replace your (cheap) filters regularly, you are good. Government studies back this. Is it worth it for you? for the planet? It is for me and my 1999 cummins diesel dodge ram. :-) Feels good anyway. ]]>Dec 10th 2006 8:13PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
I don't think it matters too much how efficient this system is the waste oil is essentially carbon neutral. Fossil oil is sequestered the oil used in fryers is only recently captured by the eco system.]]>Dec 10th 2006 6:04PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
If the bands had to cancel due to high fuel costs, then I doubt they have $100k lying around (which doesn't include the purchase price of the vehicle BTW) to do the conversion.

On another note, there is not nearly enough used vegetable oil available to support our energy needs. If we used every drop of waste vegetable oil manufactured in the US for transportation fuel it would replace less then 1% of our current fuel usage. So this is only a solution to the extent that it is used by very few people.

Biodiesel is better from the standpoint of being able to produce enough to replace petroleum based fuel, and if properly done can result in far less carbon production, but this is offset to a point by higher nitrous oxide and carbon dioxide emissions (aka Smog), and greatly increased production of particulates which damage the health.

For more info on truly sustainable bio-fuels, visit here: http://www.biofuelwatch.org.

The best path to a healthier environment, and sustainable fuel would be the development of truly renewable fuels like Solar and wind, combined with electric.


]]>Dec 10th 2006 6:33PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
If they paid that much they got royally screwed but about $98,000.

And seriously....we would make a lot bigger impact than 1% on our fuel usage. Reasons being: 1) Most diesels get double the mileage of the family car they would be replacing. 2) Even small resturaunts have roughly 5 or more gallons of oil EACH DAY! I can guesstimate there are about 20-30 or more resturaunts within a 3 mile radius of me and I'm not even near a decent sized city. 30resturaunts x 5gal = 150gallons x 35mpg = 5250miles That fuels 21 cars per week based on a 50mile/day commute. All of those numbers on the extreme low side just so you can gauge what the real impact could be.

Also, these systems aren't hard to make. The only requirement is that the oil is filtered thoroughly and it's heated enough to flow freely. That's why most systems are just a tank, heated filter, and a switching selonoid to switch from diesel to gas. Tubing is coiled or layed in the tank and connected to the cooling system so when the engine warms up to operating temp on diesel, you push the switch and it switches to the veggy oil which has just been heated by your cooling system. If you leave the car for longer than an hour though you should switch to diesel a few miles before you get to your destination to flush the WVO out of your injectors or else it could start to gell as the engine cools.

Oh, and putting a newer TDI engine(basically the same design, just has a plastic cover) in an old Rabbit like mine will make it a 14second 1/4 mile car that gets 60mpg :)]]>Dec 10th 2006 9:10PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
Solar and wind would seem attractive, but there is'nt really practical infrastructure, where with biodiesel or SVO, the diesel technology is proven, pumping stations are already there, the greatest emilssions leverage is with large transport vehicles already using diesel, and really the availability and sourcing and burden to agriculture can be offset with algal feedstock sourcing:
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html

We are nowhere near using the waste oil and virgin iol feedstocks available. Clean, renewable, domestically produced, using proven technology, and no war required...

I saw something on digg a while back, the new passat TDI will get 63mpg, which actually exceeds the efficiency of the prius (still uses pertodiesel), and has more torque to boot. :-)
]]>Dec 10th 2006 8:30PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
Agreed but you have many other factors to consider: You have to store your WVO somewhere which cuts into space you can keep musical equipment and people. Most bands barely fit into a 15 passenger van, so in order to make this work you either need to be a small band, such as a trio (i.e. Rush) or you need a larger vehicle like a Bus. Most bands can't afford a brand new bus, or even a modestly used bus, so we are probably talking about a fairly old vehicle, with a high breakdown/use ratio. Add to that the inherent maintenance risks with WVO (i.e a new fuel pump which is an expesnvie job), plus the time factor invovled in collecting, filtering, and storing the WVO, and the result is unlikely to present any true cost savings to the bands you mention. That's not to say that it isn't noble or admirable to use WVO, but rather that if cost is the primary factor affecting their ability to tour, WVO is not going to change the equation in a favorable way.

"I can guesstimate there are about 20-30 or more resturaunts within a 3 mile radius of me and I'm not even near a decent sized city. 30resturaunts x 5gal = 150gallons x 35mpg = 5250miles That fuels 21 cars per week based on a 50mile/day commute. All of those numbers on the extreme low side just so you can gauge what the real impact could be."

I'm surprised you don't see the problem with your numbers right there: those restaraunts require more then one person per week to stay in business. A town big enough to support 20-30 restaraunts has a population well over 10,000, and that's if it has one of the highest restaraunts per capita ratios in the country, which unless you live in Dallas, Wichita, or Madison, it doesn't. http://www.articlealley.com/article_108023_26.html. My guess is that if your town is close to the national average your town's population is closer to 40,000.

So you have identified a source of fuel for 21 people (which perhaps not coincidentally is .05% of the population). What are you going to do for the other 39,980 people who live there too?

Also you are ignoring the fact that there are other commercial uses for WVO, and in a market based economy the highest bidder is going to win.

Spend some time here and get acquainted with the facts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_oil_used_as_fuel


]]>Dec 10th 2006 11:35PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.ybiofuels.org/bio_fuels/history_diesel.html
" Diesel demonstrated his engine at the Exhibition Fair in Paris, France in 1898. This engine stood as an example of Diesel's vision because it was fueled by peanut oil - the "original" biodiesel. He thought that the utilization of a biomass fuel was the real future of his engine." ]]>Dec 10th 2006 10:19PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
Particulates cause cancer and asthma. IMHO a better solution would be one that didn't trade one toxic gas for another.

"Solar and wind would seem attractive, but there is'nt really practical infrastructure,"

I'm not sure I follow you here. In terms of distribution it's hard to beat the power outlet. Just about every building has one. From what I can tell the problem isn't infrastructure, it's the efficiency of power gathering and storing. With some of the new technologies coming online (solar cells with 40% efficiency, tidal power stations, improvements in wind power, fuel cell improvements, etc.) perhaps the pendulum will swing back towards truly clean and renewable energy. Tesla roadster indeed.
]]>Dec 11th 2006 12:03AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/We've been making biodiesel for a year now (there's a rundown of the system on my blog), driven over 8000 miles first in an '84 Mercedes wagon and now in a 2003 Jetta TDI wagon with no mechanical problems for around $1.50/gallon (not including the setup - you can build your own biodiesel "reactor" for ]]>Dec 10th 2006 11:25PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/you can build your own biodiesel reactor for ]]>Dec 10th 2006 11:31PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
In case you missed it, they were driving a "21 ton, 40-foot luxury RV". They could have just taken up one part of the luggage bays but they chose to have a massive tank and also a filtering unit about the same size. All they needed was the tank as big as one of the bays and guess what?...they still have 5 HUGE spaces to store stuff. Bands that spend gobs of money on busses like that probably won't care about saving all the costs of fuel so they aren't likely to do it.

....Now people with normal 15 passenger busses or converted school busses, they obviously haven't spent much money unless they bought it new. There are busses and vans selling consistently on Ebay for under $5,000. How is adding a 50gallon tank(which isn't that big by the way) going to be some super expensive project? If you were that lazy, you could even just mount a 55gallon drum in there.

As far as maintainence, I suggest you go and research what a diesel engine is exactly. They are far simpler and far more reliable than any other type of engine. Newer diesels are starting to get a lot more technology put into them but the decades before the mid-90s they were still pretty much all mechanical and the only electrical connection causing my old diesel to run is from the key. If the engine isn't firing, that wire isn't getting power and the injector pump solenoid is still closed. Ummm and that's the only likely scenario you'd have that might effect your trip.... If the engine is taken care of it will go to 400,000miles easy. Most diesels will easily clear 200,000miles even when people neglect them.

Your assumption that a bad fuel pump would be major problems is also wrong. Most newer diesels have pumps but only to help push a bit. If it stopped working the injector pump should still be spinning and sucking the fuel down the tubes. Unless it's a common rail diesel, which are just starting to come out, the fuel isn't pressurized until it gets into the injector pump, before that it's usually not pressurized much if at all.

There's also no spark plugs, wires, distributors, O2 sensors, and pretty much half of the components that can develop problems on gasoline engines. So you've cut your possible car troubles in half, you've doubled your mileage, your driving with free fuel, and resturaunt owners are happy your taking all their oil so they don't have to pay someone to take it. I really don't see how it's not a win-win situation for any consumer....I could care less how an Exxon or BP executive feels about it.]]>Dec 11th 2006 5:52AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
That's kind of true, but did you ever think there's thousands of people from neighboring cities, states, etc, that don't live in the town they're driving through, working in, visiting, or shopping at? Not to mention many resturaunts don't sell to each citizen once per week, most of the business is repeat customers anyway. The many resturaunts I went to and worked at while growing up had regulars that ate there at least 3 times a week. Then there are the countless people that eat all their meals out. When I delivered pizza, more than half the orders went to regulars that I knew by name and it was multiple times a week.

6 drivers for the night x 12deliveries each = 72 seperate orders
+ dine in, lunchtime sales, catering, etc.

That's at least 90 orders a day and that wasn't even a chain pizza place or anything.

"A town big enough to support 20-30 restaraunts has a population well over 10,000, and that's if it has one of the highest restaraunts per capita ratios in the country, which unless you live in Dallas, Wichita, or Madison, it doesn't. http://www.articlealley.com/article_108023_26.html. My guess is that if your town is close to the national average your town's population is closer to 40,000."

GEE THANKS FOR INFORMING ME THAT MY TOWN HAS OVER 10,000 PEOPLE! I've lived here for 20 years and had no idea it was so big... I mean I should go tell the people that update those population signs that they're short by about 6,000!

*I never even mentioned towns anyways, I said a radius. The population in a given radius doesn't relate proportionally to the number of resturaunts.

"So you have identified a source of fuel for 21 people (which perhaps not coincidentally is .05% of the population). What are you going to do for the other 39,980 people who live there too?"

Since I've already pointed out how ridiculous your numbers are, I don't think I have to remind you that is 21 people out of a population in this general area of about 4,000. That's also if all these resturaunts were small local resturaunts and didn't change their oil that often. If I factor in the multiple locations of Burger King, KFC, MCdonalds, Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, Chilis, Applebees, Dominos, and all those sorts of places that are within 5-10miles in either direction, that means well over 300 cars for a whole week on the low side. I'm guessing most people don't do a 50mile commute to work though so with a more realistic 25mile commute all of a sudden that's 600 cars.

I think it's funny when I give the lowest possible output that you take that as "See it will only supply 20 cars!" like it's the max output or something.

"Also you are ignoring the fact that there are other commercial uses for WVO, and in a market based economy the highest bidder is going to win."

Umm the highest bidder would be you because your not charging them to remove the waste oil.]]>Dec 11th 2006 6:15AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/you can build your own biodiesel reactor for less than $500 - we have our setup with pics at http://theseep.blogspot.com and we're planning to convert my 87 VW Westfalia Syncro to biodiesel/SVO (straight vegetable oil) to be entirely off of petrol.
Although ethanol is less efficient and harder to transport, you can convert most gasoline cars to "flex-fuel" with a kit from a Brazilian company at http://www.flextek.com.
Also, there are quite a few bands running their tour buses on biodiesel including Willie Nelson, Jack Johnson, Damian Marley, Ben Harper, and Dave Matthews.
Let's all be enviro-heroes and get some more alternative fuel cars on the road (Tesla roadster anyone?) - stop foreign oil dependance and the war! ]]>Dec 10th 2006 11:37PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
Any diesel vehicle can run biodiesel with no modifications at all. Some states even have laws dictating that all diesel fuel sold in their state have at least some biodiesel in it's makeup. This is completely different from running on WVO. And it should also be noted that the economics of the groups you mention are drastically different from that of a small band struggling to decide whether they can afford to tour or not. It's always going to be easier to walk the walk when you can afford a nice pair of shoes.

]]>Dec 10th 2006 11:43PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
hugemongous
mad love
crazies
Mr. MidLifeCrisis Adler
converting that gunk into usable fuel on the fly
the Adler fam
alterna-fuel

Jesus by the end of that article I wanted to kill myself.]]>Dec 11th 2006 2:32AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/Also, biodiesel and VO are fairly similar in that they both come from the same source, can both run in diesel engines, and are both much cleaner than traditional fossil fuels. Biodiesel is VO mixed with Methanol and Potassium Hydroxide to catalyze the transesterification (biodiesel is a single free fatty acid chain with a methanol group on the end) and does not require any modification to your car as long as it was made after 1993 (older cars simply need the fuel lines and fuel fiter changed). SVO systems need a simple dual-tank, switch and heated filter mod for less than $2000 rather than modifying the fuel itself.
These really are viable interim fuel options until we get the "Mr. Fusion" reactor a la Dr. Brown's DeLorean. ]]>Dec 11th 2006 9:12AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/Dec 11th 2006 9:09AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
http://www.greasenotgas.com/ ]]>Dec 11th 2006 1:53PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
I can't believe that a technology professional that makes a living writing software could actually put up a web site so riddled with typos and errors.

Makes me wonder about his code, that's for sure.

Posting monster screenshots of the forum threads he was posting to instead of linking to the forums themselves was really annoying, too.
]]>Dec 12th 2006 11:08AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/10/alterna-fuel-rv-takes-family-cross-country-on-47-of-diesel/
www.businmotion.com]]>Dec 21st 2006 10:01AM