Samsung's R55 sports "world's first" HHD
By Thomas Ricker 
posted April 23rd 2007 8:37AM
posted April 23rd 2007 8:37AM
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Update: It's the R55, not the M55. Post updated.
[Via PC Joint]
posted April 23rd 2007 8:37AM
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Could this work with a non X86 processor? On like a Unix laptop with SPARC processor?
If not, when do you think one that will work for this will come out?
It could work using any processor, the limitation is the software that uses it has to know it exists. Windows XP doesn't support hybrid hard drives (to my knowledge) while Vista does.
Flash may not be cheap but 256MB of flash is. Why would anyone pay extra for a downgrade to 80GB in order to get a lousy 256MB of flash?
faster boot times? lower power consumption?
"faster boot times? lower power consumption?"
...which could be added conventionally rather than through a hybrid hard drive. Doing so would cost little and would allow you to choose a conventional hard drive without capacity limitations.
I say again, why would anyone pay extra for a hard drive *downgrade* in order to get a lousy 256MB of flash. Far more flash could be added cost effectively without changing the hard drive at all.
Even though it is a small amount of flash, it is a step in the right direction. Although flash does write slower than a traditional hard disk it does write small packets of data faster. This will result in less power consumption, less noise, and better performance.
If there's not enough flash to make a single application faster then it's not "a step in the right direction". Teeny tiny baby steps aren't worth taking particularly when you have to make sacrifices in capacity to get them. We don't bother making performance improvements a fraction of a percent at a time.
Once again babalicious babe trump whatever she is holding...
But see review of Sony UX Micro PC on Akihabara News, side by side comparison of SSD and spinners drive shows significant difference in performance.
looks like Bobby Lee from Mad TV to me. I am sure that it's just a bad pic, but something looks off to me.
That's a man, man.
I'm looking forward to the day that these drives are standard (and cheap) equipment on laptops.
you don't understand, obviously. Just any flash memory won't do, they're not just attaching a 256 MB thumbdrive to the hard drive and calling it a day, they're using very quick flash memory that will drastically speed up applications, and allow the hard drive to shut down so that the computer runs entirely off flash and RAM.
After saying that, I don't see much of a future in hybrid hard drives. I think flash memory will come down in price soon enough that we will just toss an old hard drive for a same size, same interface flash storage device.
Hybrid drives are a step in the right direction.
"Very quick flash memory" could be added anywhere in the system--there's no reason to assume that you can only put it in a hard drive or attach it via a slow connection like USB. Adding flash inside a hard drive is the worst place to put it since it's the furthest away from the CPU. Furthermore, flash doesn't need to be added in the hard drive to allow the drive to spin down. All that's necessary for that is to have enough. It's unlikely that 256MB of flash, like this solution provides, is "enough" for very many applications.
There is plenty of flash that is large enough, fast enough, and cheap enough to beat this solution and not require comprimises in drive capacity in order to obtain it. Hybrid drives exist because that's all drive manufacturers can do; not because they make technical sense. The sad thing is that there are people who believe that hybrid drives are somehow magically better and that I disagree because I "don't understand". Microsoft understands, they are the ones driving this solution, and they are not pushing hybrid drives.
Nice!!! How much...? /Borat
Putting the flash on the HD makes most sense because you can add an HHD to any computer and it will be able to leverage the advantages of very fast persistent storage.
Sure, you can put flash on the MB, and use it as a persistent cache for any HD, but that requires a new MB.
And, anyway, I thought that MS was pushing the HHD's along with Samsung.
"Putting the flash on the HD makes most sense because you can add an HHD to any computer and it will be able to leverage the advantages of very fast persistent storage."
The same could be said for any number of other means of attaching flash. The difference is that a hard drive upgrade is more difficult, especially for notebooks, than any other means of adding flash. Microsoft says it will support hybrid drives. That doesn't mean it will push them.
Is a hard drive upgrade that lowers capacity really an upgrade? 80GB notebook drives are pretty boring especially when the flash they add is only 256MB. Have you priced 256MB of flash lately?
Of course, upgrades don't matter in this context since the machine discussed here is a new notebook. There's no reason flash couldn't be integrated on the MB in this case. For new systems, local bus attachment would be marginally faster than hybrid disks.
BTW, who says there are "advantages of very fast persistent storage" besides MS? I have Vista and I've tried flash acceleration. Yawn... Even MS will tell you that 256MB of RAM is better than 256MB of flash. That costs nearly nothing.
You STILL don't understand. You could get an 80GB hard drive before. There is nothing that's stopping hard drive manufacturers from adding 1GB flash to a 120GB hard drive except space, but flash has gotten quite small, as have hard drives.
Microsoft is touting hybrid hard drives as being the next step. They support them in Vista, and say that they will increase performance dramatically.
There is no other standard of adding flash to a computer other than a 3.5 inch adapter for flash, and those are pretty non-standard and outlandishly priced.
Again, this is a step in the right direction, it's not the solution, it's the way to it.
One more thing, craig. If Samsung released a complete flash replacement for a hard drive (which Sony already did in their UMPC), they couldn't make money off the people who splurge on this new tech. In their perspective, the best thing to do is to slowly raise the flash memory on hybrid drives until you don't need the hard drive anymore, this would increase profits dramatically, and keep prices steady.
"You STILL don't understand."
What makes you think I don't understand? You think manufacturers can fit 256MB of flash on a drive but they don't have enough space for 1GB? Do you know the size difference between the two?
"Microsoft is touting hybrid hard drives as being the next step."
Really? Where does Microsoft say that? Next step from what to what?
"They support them in Vista, and say that they will increase performance dramatically."
They don't really say that but they say the same for USB flash drives. There is nothing about the flash being in the hard drive that makes the system faster compared to putting flash somewhere else. To quote you: "You STILL don't understand".
"There is no other standard of adding flash to a computer other than a 3.5 inch adapter for flash, and those are pretty non-standard and outlandishly priced."
Wow. Better tell Microsoft and all the USB flash drive vendors that. You have actually heard of ReadyBoost, haven't you?
"Again, this is a step in the right direction, it's not the solution, it's the way to it."
Again, no it's not. There are better ways to do this to the extent it's interesting at all. Frankly, I could care less about flash OR hybrid drives and I've actually tried ReadyBoost. Have you?
"If Samsung released a complete flash replacement for a hard drive (which Sony already did in their UMPC), they couldn't make money off the people who splurge on this new tech."
They won't anyway, since those customers will add flash in the manner Microsoft recommends--via USB. Hard drive upgrades, especially in notebooks, are labor-intensive. How many people do you know that upgrade their mobile hard drives?
"In their perspective, the best thing to do is to slowly raise the flash memory on hybrid drives until you don't need the hard drive anymore, this would increase profits dramatically, and keep prices steady."
Right. ;-) Somehow I don't think you understand Samsung's business model very well nor do you seem to understand the flash size limitations in Vista. Perhaps you should actually try using this tech before you claim to be an expert in how it should be implemented. Samsung is doing what they can to differentiate their product. That doesn't mean it's valuable.
By all means, Kev, spend extra money for a size downgrade in hopes that that 256MB of flash will give you a huge performance boost. Samsung is counting on true believers like you for their future profits.
USB2.0 = 400Mbits/s = 50MB/s
SATA 300 = 3Gbits/s = 384MB/s
Modern USB thumb drives use flash that's in the neighborhood of 20MB/s. (150x, a fast flash stick, = 150x150KB/s=22MB/s)
Understand now why you've had poor experiences with Vista's flash boost? Thumbdrives suck. Who knows what they're putting the in the HD? You're right, USB is probably a better solution than on the SATA bus. :rolls eyes:
Though I agree that on the Mobo, akin to RAM slots, would probably be the best solution, in the drive is the best retrofit solution requiring the least additional engineering without a thumb drive sticking out of my laptop.
Readyboost has the limitation of having the need to take into account security as well as the user plugging out the thumbdrive. Plus Vista needs to know how much space is available in the thumbdrive as well as the file distribution. The flash drive on the other hand would be less of a variable. So my guess is that the implementation for ReadyBoost would be alot different than Readydrive.
One aspect I could guess at is that for Readyboost Vista would need to check the harddisk if the data it is looking for is not in the thumbdrive. For ReadyDrive, the flash drive is the harddisk, so one extra layer is removed increasing performance. Furthermore, you can't put in critical data in the thumb drive like the data used to boot up Vista or to bring it back from sleep or hibernation. This is also the area where flash beats more RAM since RAM can't store data while the power is off.
so, way to come accross as a dick, but as anyone who has taken a high school market class will know, the introductory price is always higher than the current price of an "older" technolgy
I think samsung has come out with a wonderful idea that can really be a luxury.
but dont be so quick to say that it is too much
if you recall, the first iPods acctualy cost more than the 5g ipods
so chill
it will take a while, but prices will go down
so try focusing on how well it may work as opposed as to how insane the price is.
To craig who says that "hard drive upgrades, especially in notebooks, are labor-intensive", I must interject here. In most notebooks, it is incredibly easy to install a new HD. Arguably easier than desktop PCs since you don't have to deal with an awkward outer casing, bracket mounts, and the like. In all of the notebooks I've personally owned, the HD was easily accessible through a small plastic panel held on by a screw. The HD itself might be held in place with a few more screws, but it's really a piece of cake. I could swap hard drives in under two minutes. And as far as I know, most laptops are built with this ease of upgradeability in mind (though, yes, some have difficult to reach/replace drives - but most are not like this these days).
Well Craig, you are certainly quick to say this is garbage yet you repeatedly fail to mention anything better to support your claim. You mention readyboost but that has been somewhat shot down already. Ok sure 256 is not much but it can do more than you think. Ubuntu and many other linux variants run fine with the meager amount of ram for the whole system. This flash will be probably mainly used for caching and not for holding whole apps. This flash can be used to hold data so the cpu does not have to wait for the HDD to spin up and search out the data. That right there can be a huge boon. The cpu does not have to wait so much for the HDD to find data or write it. Being as how this is a "new" tech, you can bet that within a year, Samsung will release larger drives with more flash on them.
Also, what is with that bull crap about changing out laptop drives being difficult? YOUR QUOTE: The difference is that a hard drive upgrade is more difficult, especially for notebooks, than any other means of adding flash. You mean to tell me that you think it is hard to remove ONE screw and pull out the drive?! Really? Are you that bad at working on computers? On a large number of WINDOWS laptops, the drive is so easy to change, you can do it blind-folded!
kheldorin: ReadyDrive *may* be different than ReadyBoost and then again it may not. All your points are correct, but it's also true that "ReadyDrive" may only be a branding exercise to support hybrid drive marketing efforts. We don't know and both possibilities are plausible. Both may also be true. The real question isn't how different they are but whether either technology is even beneficial. In new systems, particularly notebooks, manufacturers can add flash without using hybrid drives or USB. For those implementations "ReadyDrive" approachs would make sense. Yes, a removable device is potentially worse than a fixed one.
willdrake: High school marketing class? Samsung came out with a wonderful idea? I'll focus on how well it works. I'm comfortable believing that 256MB will be pitiful, thank you.
rabid rabies: Only a fool would suggest notebook hard drive upgrades are easy. Most desktops simply add a drive. Notebooks must replace the boot drive and reinstall all software. Some notebooks make the physical installation difficult but that's the least of the worries. If you think installing a desktop hard drive is hard then there's something the matter with you. Most laptops are NOT designed with upgradability in mind---those are called DESKTOPS. Yes, I'm convinced there's something the matter with you.
stomper: Of course I have. I have said that the hybrid drive is too small in capacity and it offers too little flash to be useful. Who shot down ReadyBoost? If Samsung releases drives with competitive flash sizes and real, usable capacities at reasonable prices then I won't have a problem with it. That's not the case here. As far as your linux drivel, who cares? I suspect you have no idea how any of this really works in the first place.
Changing out laptop drives IS more difficult than desktop drives. Some laptops make the physical change easy, not all do, but you're still stuck with an entire system restore which is typically more time consuming than a desktop where it frequently isn't even required. Nice try. Now go out and play with rabid rabies.
engadget.com: Yes, I understand why. Flash is slow whether it's attached via USB or SATA. Understand why your comparison is meaningless? 22MB/sec flash is still 22 MB/sec whether it's attached via 50 MB/sec USB or 150+ MB/sec SATA. SATA2 is not 384 MB/sec, it is 300. http://www.sata-io.org/3g.asp Both attachment techniques will run at flash speeds.
Of course, what you are insinuating is that Samsung has access to flash that's much faster. Trouble is that doesn't exist. There is demand for the fastest flash devices that can be built, so if you believe that Samsung has flash that runs 150 or 300 MB/sec then you live in fairytale land.
Microsoft makes recommendations on thumbdrives that perform adequately and they refuse to support slow devices. If you knew anything about ReadyBoost you'd know that. Instead, you quote numbers without understanding their impact. USB is not limiting flash performance.
Yes, flash in a hard drive IS the best *retrofit* solution. However, my comment is that it's stupid to use a retrofit solution to add flash to a new notebook. There's no reason to use a retrofit solution here much less one with a measly 256MB. Future systems, assuming flash is valuable at all, will have chipset support since that's where it makes most sense.
BTW, ReadyBoost sucks for a number of reasons but USB is not really one of them. ReadyBoost has to support the spontaneous removal of the device as kheldorin pointed out, and it has significant capacity limitations (< 2GB). Unless your system does nothing, 1GB will have its limits as cache memory (256 MB even more).
Wow looks like craig knows all there is to know. We all better just agree with him since he created everything. Please get over yourself craig. Windows is a bloated system and requires more ram than any other system out there. Linux drivel huh. Shows how little you really do know. Did you know Dell ships linux on servers? Or that Dell will be shipping linux now on some of its consumer PCs? Probably not.
Also you show your lack of pc knowledge on laptops. ANYTHING you can do to desktop, you can do to a laptop as far as drives are concerned. Yes they use different size drives but you can do all the same data transfers. You say most desktops just add a second drive. Yeah and so then it is a slave drive suitable for storing data or configuring raid if your system supports it. We are talking about replacing the PRIMARY drive. Clearly you missed that. So with a desktop, you add in a second drive and transfer OR you make an image and burn it to dvd. You can do all the same stuff on a laptop except that the second drive hooks through USB. Changing out a drive on a laptop is so simple a 4 year old can do it, but not you apparently.
Wow, craig, I don't know how you can make so many ignorant replies and claim the truth. Amazing.
Craig did you ever hear about virtual memory? how about paging?
A few quick facts which immediately set the two technologies apart:
Readyboost: stores cache
Readydrive: stores paging, among other things.
Now, to continue with the niceness of Readydrive, the idea is simple: small incoming data is saved to the flash buffer first, and, when full, the buffer gets offloaded into the HD platters. This means that we no longer need to constantly write to the HD platters like it'd normally happen with regular HDs. So to recap this does two great things:
*Writing to flash first saves a lot more energy than to platters
*Writing to flash first is potentially faster than writing to platters (especially for small random files).
The same applies to read operations.
Please note that incoming data will not always go into flash first. If it's a large file, the OS (operating system) may decide to write it directly to platters which may prove to be faster. So:
*The OS may decide to write to flash first, or skip flash and write directly to platters.
Again, notice that Readydrive uses this new flash buffer smartly BECAUSE of the OS. THAT's why only Vista can take advantage of such technology. It's not just extra flash added to a HD, it's a sophisticated solution.
You can get more information here: http://www.tfot.info/content/view/83/59/
Now please stop making ignorant claims -.-
樓上的猜對啦，讀取速度提升26%，寫入速度提升71%，耗電量降低32%，還有一句沒翻的是硬碟壽命提升10%。