http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/ Engadget Comments for http://www.engadget.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.engadget.com en-us Copyright 2008 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 5:56PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 6:00PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
Fishes,
narco. ]]>Jul 9th 2007 6:03PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 6:07PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 10th 2007 9:31AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
Imagine all the roadworks that'll be required to install those gates, New Yorkers are going to LOVE that.

The timing after the failed UK attacks are interesting too...

Big Brother control freak elitism pwns.]]>Jul 9th 2007 6:04PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 10th 2007 4:23AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 6:09PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/- Benjamin Franklin]]>Jul 9th 2007 6:17PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 6:27PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 6:24PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 7:01PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/People who implicitly hate the government are worse, imo, than those who "implicitly trust" it.]]>Jul 9th 2007 7:25PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
Yeesh, I know I don't have an expectancy of privacy when I'm out in public but that doesn't mean I want to be taped all the time.]]>Jul 9th 2007 7:25PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
Christ. It's not like any of us bitching on Engadget is going to do anything. Whatever. I wish we could just skip the slippery slope crap and jump ahead 15 years when the US is completely a police state. I'm so sick of caring when no one else does or how people just accept the government's "protection" from ourselves.

Our worst enemy is our own apathy.

-p-]]>Jul 9th 2007 7:36PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
I don't "hate" the government any more than the government hates me--but since I'm not asking to film all Congressmen and law enforcement personnel as they go about their daily tasks, I'd say I "trust" them far more than they trust American citizens.]]>Jul 9th 2007 7:36PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 8:13PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 10:19PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
Big Brother is watching.]]>Jul 9th 2007 6:16PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 7:42PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 8:16PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
Mooning the camera of course!]]>Jul 9th 2007 6:56PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
? President Theodore Roosevelt, 1918, during WWI

...but seriously, with the popularity of home surveillance items such as webcams and government spying (AT&T aka NSA), it's just a matter of time until we start getting sued for doing things like sharing files or something. ...oh. ...wait.]]>Jul 9th 2007 7:00PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

-- Martin Niemöller

You shouldn't let it go just because "you have nothing to hide."]]>Jul 9th 2007 7:54PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
"If you give a mouse a cookie..."
-Laura Joffe Numeroff

the point is, if you start giving in a little to the government on small demands, they will always demand more and more and finally where will we end up?]]>Jul 10th 2007 1:54AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
I live in a pub and partake in our local communities 'Pub net'. We use a radio system to alert, and be alerted by CCTV of any individuals that should be either picked up by the police, or watched by CCTV due to drunkenness, violence, etc.

CCTV should only bother those who have something to hide. It's a step towards protection, don't fear it - embrace it.]]>Jul 9th 2007 7:31PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
My father didn't defect from Cuba because he didn't feel safe. His government kept him quite safe. There are greater things to fear than drunks. What you have to "hide" depends on what your government decides is or is not acceptable. The cameras will still be there--even if the laws change.]]>Jul 9th 2007 7:40PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 7:43PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
Sorry, no thanks. I get health care through my job and even then, I rarely have to use it. I don't have a long wait for procedures and my meds still cost next to nothing. Once again, why would I want a national health care system?]]>Jul 10th 2007 1:58AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
I don't know how we got to national health care from surveillance cameras... Either way, you are a nasty person. First of all, if there was national health care then your company would not have to pay for health insurance. Socialized health care has a much lower overhead than privatized, therefore you would actually pay less in new taxes than you would get back on your salary. And no matter what job you went to, you would be covered even during the interim. When you lay out all the benefits (including societal, which you seem to be completely unaware of), there is no reason we should NOT have national health care. HMOs stand to lose a lot of money, which is why there is so much disinformation on the subject.]]>Jul 10th 2007 10:36AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
Internal Revenue Service
Department of Education
US Passport Office
Your local Motor Vehicle Administration

State and Federal agencies that are run for shit and are Rube Goldberg efficient. And I should want a federal agency to run my healthcare now too? Have you *been* to a government "service" agency recently? I live in DC. Dude, you don't want a gov't service agency responsible for your health and life.]]>Jul 10th 2007 4:03PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
These are just my thoughts, don't mean to offend anyone, just thought I would chime in...]]>Jul 9th 2007 7:39PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/I had briefly worked on surveillance and the problem is that in most cases these things are only viable to catch someone or find out information after a crime has occurred. The information coming in is so much that it is impossible to stop an attack since the intimidation angle hardly works for terrorists who is anyways going to blow himself up.]]>Jul 9th 2007 7:59PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 8:12PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 8:21PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
The 7/7 bombers were all caught on video and their journey traced-backwards allowing the discovery of a car containing explosives.

The 21/7 bombers whose bombs failed to detonate were all captured after their pictures from security-cameras were circulated, and this helped secure their convictions this week.]]>Jul 10th 2007 8:54AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
Whichever train the bombers did catch, when they got to London, there appears to be no photograph of the 4 of them together in the capital - no CCTV either, despite London having one of the highest numbers of surveillance cameras of any city in the world."

And you shot Jean Charles de Menezes for wearing a coat. The UK and the US are becoming alarmists. You still have a better chance of being struck by lightning than being the victim of a terrorist attack. Why don't our governments do something about the lightning if they're so worried about our safety? Perhaps federally mandated lightning rods on every home? Mandatory non-conductive body-suits?

Try to keep one eye half-open as you cower in fear.]]>Jul 10th 2007 9:38AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 8:18PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 8:24PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
if half of 5th Ave. can see you running down the street with an old lady's purse, why shouldn't the govt. be able to film you running down the street? On the same note, if you pick your nose while walking down the street, why can't someone take your picture? TMZ catches celebs all the time. http://www.tmz.com/2007/02/17/pick-a-winner/ Are you so special?]]>Jul 10th 2007 12:52AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
I don't pay taxes to TMZ to film that crap. There also isn't much fear involved with TMZ coming back later and going "Oh, well we can film anything. you can't film police brutality."

Show me some statistics that proves that cameras in London have actually made a great impact. IMHO they're a waste of time and money. ]]>Jul 10th 2007 2:03AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
Okay, discuss...]]>Jul 9th 2007 8:29PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
You have more liberties than the Privacy Rights guaranteed under the Fourth Amendment (and as they are incorporated into the States under the 14th Amendment). But I guess only those of us that don't know our asses from our mouth would think that, right?

-p-]]>Jul 9th 2007 8:38PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 10th 2007 11:56AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
There you go again... stuff that should be coming out of your ass is coming out of your mouth.

What you present are unsound legal arguments that would never hold up in court. The principal I have stated, that there is no legal expectation of privacy in public places, is established legal precedent. Even the ACLU would agree with me (although they would probably still fight it).

Additionally, I was not saying it was good or bad to install cameras. I was saying that the government has the right to do so. I was attempting to frame the discussion how it should be framed, that is in terms of right and wrong, not in terms of government legality. Otherwise it is pointless. This is not one that can be reasonably fought in the courts; however, it can be fought by lobbying your elected officials.

I also want to thank you for demonstrating Godwin's Law in near record time. ]]>Jul 9th 2007 9:33PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 9:37PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
>> I was saying that the government has the right to do so.

Reread your post. You never ONCE said this. You said you have no right to privacy and therefore it is not an infringement of your civil liberties. My reply was that while, yes, it does not infringe a right to privacy, a right covered by your Fourth Amendment civil liberties, it may in fact have a deleterious affect on people exercising their First Amendment civil liberties of Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Association.

I know there is legal precedent for being recorded in general in public. But, unless you can direct me otherwise, there has not been a mass surveillance of this nature in the US. I know the government has the right to install the cameras. I'm just saying I don't think they should and there are Constitutionally motivated reasons why they shouldn't (not that they can't). And if you know of precedent supporting mass surveillance versus ordinary surveillance, please provide it because I don't think it exists and I think there IS a difference.

For example, the NAACP does not have to disclose it's member list. If I was a member of the NAACP, and I thought I was being recorded ALL THE TIME, I may be less likely to attend a rally that the NAACP was throwing. It's not a privacy issue, it's a freedom of association issue. What if I wasn't a member of the NAACP. I also have the freedom not to be associated with a particular group. Just because I passed by and stopped to listen for a minute doesn't mean I am associated with them. If I thought I was being recorded all the time, I may cut a wide swath and avoid it all together.

Lastly, the Nazi reference was part of the quote game. It is a poem that was written about how people need to stand up for others. I never claimed that this administration was comparable to the Nazis, therefore I never invoked Godwin's Law. ]]>Jul 9th 2007 11:08PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
A cop is allowed to stroll down the street and look around with his own eyes. If this chills your speech, than that is your problem. The only thing it can reasonably be expected to chill is your propensity to perform an illegal act.

Legally speaking, there is no difference between a cop walking down the street patrolling and a cop in the operations center watching on CCTV.

Now-you make the argument that surveilling en masse changes the constitutionality. Well I would argue that we have been doing this for a long time in varying ways and degrees. At public events or demonstrations, over which you express the chilling effect of cameras on your First Amendment freedoms, you are guaranteed a strong police presence to keep the peace. Also, where I am at least, Washington, DC metroplex, there are multiple traffic cameras at almost every intersection.

Ask yourself this: What has the larger chilling effect on speech, the 50 cops that have been dispatched in uniform with firearms to your demonstration, or a ubiquitous camera array?

You can take the parting shot.]]>Jul 10th 2007 9:10AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/
Seems a sad state of affairs where you have no rights to protect yourself from being monitored and recorded in this way but if it is a video or movie instead of a person that is captured on the camera then we will pin them to the wall and take them for every penny]]>Jul 12th 2007 5:11PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/09/new-york-city-to-get-london-style-surveillance-veil/Jul 9th 2007 8:34PM