http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/ Engadget Comments for Tampa Bay school gets pair of plug-in hybrid buses http://www.engadget.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.engadget.com en-us Copyright 2012 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
So freaky seeing a local news station, and county near me on engadget.

Well, I wonder how long it'd be to the middle schoolers going to mess it up and it costs more money to maintain then to use, last year a bus went missing cause of them...]]>Jul 23rd 2007 8:32AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/Jul 23rd 2007 2:20PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
-and it does have to start somewhere.]]>Jul 23rd 2007 8:18AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/Jul 23rd 2007 8:44AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/Jul 23rd 2007 8:57AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/Yes, the bus can run off of electricity, but where does that electricity come from? My guess is a coal plant (which "environmentalists" would call 'bad' because of the pollutants put into the air) or a hydro electric dam ('fish killers') or nuclear ('will kill for generations to come).
And what about these compact fluorescent bulbs that we're all supposed to be switching to that the "environmentalists" are telling us to use because it reduces our energy needs? It'll only be a matter of time before they're bitching because of the increased mercury in our landfills from people throwing away spend fluorescent bulbs en masse.
I'm an advocate for energy need reduction, but please just don't do it blindly by replacing one environmental sin with another...
]]>Jul 23rd 2007 10:29AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
He said "70-100% improvement in FUEL ECONOMY," not fuel costs.

What does this mean?

Say your car gets 20 MPG. A 100% improvement in fuel economy means that it gets 40 MPG, meaning 20 MORE MPG than before. 20 more MPG / 20 MPG originally = 100% improvement.

Say your car gets 10 MPG. A 70% improvement in fuel economy means that it gets 17 MPG, meaning 7 MORE MPG than before. 7 more MPG / 10 MPG originally = 70% improvement.

Hope this is clear. ]]>Jul 23rd 2007 12:22PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/i really dont get where people like you come from. you say that you would like change, but if the change has any type of downside to it...its equally bad. so we should ditch it. you're really looking to move to a complete status quo with this statement. there are no environmental fix alls to fix the environment, or to fix our energy problems. everything needs to be done in baby steps, i think everyone feels firm about this. If we had a president and a congress that felt more, well...interested, in changing the way we get out energy and some of the federal standards that are in place, then there wouldn't be coal plants burning coal to produce electricity. Solar, hydroelectric, wind, and more research all need to be pursued more. ]]>Jul 23rd 2007 9:22PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/Jul 23rd 2007 9:05AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/Jul 23rd 2007 9:31AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
"Former aerospace engineer turned school bus driver..."

OMGWTFBBQ?!?!

]]>Jul 23rd 2007 9:15AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
It looks like a pretty good retirement job to me.]]>Jul 23rd 2007 11:02AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/It's about age- you won't get a teaching job if you are over 50 with multiple master's or doctorate. $$$
Is driving a school bus better than greeting at Wal-Mart? Go figure.]]>Jul 23rd 2007 11:17AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/Jul 23rd 2007 9:22AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
Buses lose a lot of energy to all of the stopping and going, so brake energy recapture is key to improving efficiency. Given that space isn't a huge concern, they should look at the mechanical energy recapture systems like the one that UPS is starting to use:
http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/200/Issue/Article/False/38545/Issue
]]>Jul 23rd 2007 10:48AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/Jul 23rd 2007 10:34AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/

And by the way, for those bagging on plug-ins:

Making a million dollar change that only adds 1% efficiency to one school bus is a waste of money. Making a million dollar change that adds 1% efficiency to a power plant will get you a bonus and a promotion.]]>Jul 23rd 2007 11:05AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
The man in the video said "70-100% in MILEAGE IMPROVEMENT," NOT fuel costs. You based your math on the latter:

"100000miles/20mpg=5000 gallons
5000gallons*2.90/gallon= 14,500 dollars/year on fuel

saving 70% of that means you save $10,150 per year per bus." ~andy

But what does 70% mileage improvement really mean?

Let me use your figures for purpose of comparison. Again, hypothetically, assume the bus gets 20 MPG normally. A 70% mileage improvement with the hybrid system means that it gets 34 MPG, meaning 14 MORE MPG than before. 14 more MPG / 20 MPG originally = 0.7 = 70% mileage improvement.

Now, 100000miles/34 mpg = 2941.18 gal
2941.18 gal*2.90 per gallon = $8529.41 dollars/year on fuel
$14,500 dollars/year with 20 mpg - $8529.41 dollars/year with 34 mpg = $5970.69 savings/year.
$112,500 hybrid system premium / $5970.69 savings/year = 18.84 years.

Clearly, 70% mileage improvement does not translate into 70% savings in fuel costs. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to the term "mileage improvement" because a) I own a hybrid (Honda Civic Hybrid) and b) I discussed it lengthily on GreenHybrid.com forums.

Again, I will reiterate that hybrids only make sense when their premiums can be offset within a couple years by fuel savings, within the life of their original batteries and electrical equipment. This is a great start, though.]]>Jul 23rd 2007 8:56PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/Jul 23rd 2007 11:40AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
As I understand the benefits of hybrids, and assuming they incorporate regenerative braking, this could be great for buses in smaller areas, where they make many stops that are a short distance apart, or sit in urban traffic a lot. Look at the use case: the bus is out for an hour or two in the morning, making frequent stops and traveling a total of about 50 miles over two round trips (elementary school route, then high school route). It runs mostly on electric, so if the engine has to run at all, it can idle at peak efficiency the whole time. If there's stop-and-go traffic, regenerative braking recovers most of the energy spent, so the 50-mile figure doesn't go down too much. The bus plugs in for the school day, then runs the same two routes taking the kids home. You barely use any diesel, and your overnight charging comes at off-peak rates (I think most electric suppliers do charge commercial clients based on time-of-day, even if they don't charge consumers differently). I think this is pretty much the best possible use of a plug-in hyrbid. I hope it works well for them, and spreads to a national program.]]>Jul 23rd 2007 11:56AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
Did I hear that correctly? That means the state pays an extra $112,500 per hybrid bus over a normal bus.

Let's say they do indeed get about 85% improvement in fuel economy, an average of what the guy said between 70-100% improvement. Say for instance a normal bus gets 20 MPG, a hybrid bus gets 20*1.85=37 MPG. Each bus logs 100,000 miles per year, which is a very, very high estimate for a bus that drives around city conditions say, 4 times a day. It would take 20 years to pay off the initial costs! By that time the batteries in the bus would have already need to be replaced twice, the electrical motor would need an overhaul, bringing another $10,000 into the picture. This doesn't even take into account the cost of charging the bus up nightly.

Assist-type hybrids like the one shown in the bus only make sense for high-mileage commuters (we're talking 1-2 hours of mostly highway commute) and only when they have premiums which can be paid off in a matter of a couple years (i.e ]]>Jul 23rd 2007 12:16PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
20mpg is bad dead wrong. Think more like 10.

100000miles/20mpg=5000 gallons
5000gallons*2.90/gallon= 14,500 dollars/year on fuel

saving 70% of that means you save $10,150 per year per bus.

Now, when you account for the fact that buses actually get about 10mpg (std fleet bus is a non-turbo International at around 8 liters feeding an everchanging automatic), you save $20,150 per year per bus, worst case scenario (70%). Upping that to 85% saved, then you get $24,650 saved per year per bus which is a payoff time of just over 4 years.


They're still overpaying for these buses though. This doesn't DOUBLE the cost of a bus which is already in the 100's of thousands of dollars.]]>Jul 23rd 2007 12:29PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
School busses don't drive 100K miles per year. According the the FHA, the average is 8K/ year, with some states racking up 15K/year:
http://www.nasdpts.org/paperBusReplacement.html

Given:
- The fuel savings is only good for 50-75 miles per day (there's no way that you're going to get 6 hours of charging time in the middle of the day).
- There are about 180 school days per year (D of Ed)
- Beyond 100 miles per day, they have minimal fuel savings (20% is typical for most hybrids in the real world)
- Baseline non-hybrid fuel economy is 10mpg
- Energy cost savings is 85% (which seems very high; I'd bet it's more like 50% because electricity ain't cheap and diesels are already pretty efficient)
- Diesel cost is $2.50/gal (schools pay less than the rest of us due to negotiated rates, taxes, etc).

Average daily milege is 8000miles/180days=44 miles - so it can run in battery mode all day.

Non-hybrid daily fuel is 44 miles/10MPG=4.4Gal or $11/day

Hybrid energy cost is $11*(1-85%) = $1.65

Hybrid savings is $11-$1.65 = $9.35

Hybrid savings per year = $9.35*180days = $1683

Number of years needed to make up $112,500 cost adder = 66.8
Average life span of a bus = 15 years

Even if the district puts 15K miles/year on its buses and manages to stay on battery power all day, they won't get to break even. They need to get the cost of the add-on down to about $10K for this to really make sense.

]]>Jul 23rd 2007 2:35PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/Jul 23rd 2007 12:58PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
Our rooftop solar system produces more energy in the day than we use to charge up the EV at night.

That's driving free. 170,000 miles of oil-free Toyota RAV4-EV driving in the last 4 years (before that, EV1, HondaEV and RangerEV) means 8,000 gallons of gas saved, more than $16,000 which paid for our solar system.

And we get our household electric "for free".

Why not let everyone who wishes to do so, "live oil free"??

All it takes is the plug-in car, that finances purchase of the solar system.]]>Jul 23rd 2007 12:55PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
http://EV1.org

http://PlugInAmerica.com

http://SetAmericaFree.org]]>Jul 23rd 2007 12:57PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
But I'd think that bus transportation is probably the best possible case scenario for a serial hybrid plugin vehicle, assuming regenerative braking of course.]]>Jul 23rd 2007 2:12PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tampa-bay-school-gets-pair-of-plug-in-hybrid-buses/
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