http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/ Engadget Comments for http://www.engadget.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.engadget.com en-us Copyright 2012 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 1:31AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 8:48AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 10:00AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
Nice name. You're clearly trolling, but I always was a sucker for the bait. Please ignore this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water]]>Jul 30th 2007 10:10AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 1:33AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 1:49AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 1:51AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
And anyways - would you rather have some Chinese assembling your products while trying to do as good of a job as possible in order to not loose the job - or some fat American whining about minimal wages... Point is it doesn't matter who owns the company or who assembles your crap because all in all its all the same crap everywhere...

Just my .02]]>Jul 30th 2007 1:53AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 1:55AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
Anyone want to make a calculation of how much this could save an average household per year?]]>Jul 30th 2007 3:40AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
i've been doing it for 4 years now. it takes a little patience, and just a little more cash -- but what you do get for that little bit more is of obviously higher degree of craftsmanship. ]]>Jul 30th 2007 11:49PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 1:54AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 1:58AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 2:07AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Or maybe you can use them if you really DO want to use soap.]]>Jul 30th 2007 2:17AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
It's got some funky color schemes, too (see the "Personnalisez-moi" tab at the bottom right)]]>Jul 30th 2007 2:35AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
So it's like throwing baking soda into your laundry, then drowning it in vinegar?

But wouldn't they like neutralize each other?

I don't remember THAT much from chemistry, but i think thats how it works.]]>Jul 30th 2007 2:09AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 2:50AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
no, detergent works because half of the molecule is nonpolar and sticks to dirt, while the other half is polar and is soluble in water. OH- ions would do little to clean nonpolar dirt, grease, or oils.

water on its own dissociates into OH- and H+ ions, but they're present for only fractions of a second. i doubt that this washing machine would change that in any significant way.]]>Jul 30th 2007 3:33AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 2:40AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 2:47AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 6:35AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 5:32PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
Revrant2394 :you need to learn some history. Its the Chinese thats been screwed Historically by all other countries: Mongolians and Manchurian invaders, Europeans feeding them opium (attacking them when they tried to ban it), English and Portugal Colonizing their land (HK Macau..), Japanese invaders pillaging killing and raping their women... not to mention the Commies killing and oppressing their own people.]]>Jul 30th 2007 8:30PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 2:54AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
But there are SOME nice Chinese companies, like Lenovo, which owns IBM's PC division, and Haier is actually pretty reputable itself. The problem in China, like in many other places, is quality control and intellectual property right infringement. Many inferior brands sell their wares under a better known name so that they sell better. These brands also commonly bribe officials for quality control testing certifications.]]>Jul 30th 2007 3:18AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 3:44AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
I love China, I love Haier!]]>Jul 30th 2007 3:51AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Yea, love them till they stop regulating the freedoms of the internet.]]>Jul 30th 2007 4:10AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
Can he really do that? If somepeople hold some opinion, I suggest they should go to hospital to check his head if his head is full of rubbish!

China is more and more stronger than before!!
]]>Jul 30th 2007 3:53AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 4:14AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.neomag.fr/produits/e-docs/00/00/02/07/document_fiche_produit.php&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=3&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwash2o%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGIC,GGIC:1970--2,GGIC:en]]>Jul 30th 2007 3:56AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/

Washing your clothes with H+ ions or OH-? Love to see this... I wont be surprised if they recall this as soon as it is released!


I just took Organic chemistry this past semester and when I spilled acid (H+) on myself and tried clean it off, it just simply burned through. Your clothes might last a few cycles (assuming either ions will be in low concentrations) through this and it might even get clean, but dont expect your clothes to be in good condition after the 20th cycle.]]>Jul 30th 2007 3:58AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Washing your clothes with H+ ions or OH-? Love to see this... I wont be surprised if they recall this as soon as it is released!

when was the last time a Chinese company recalled ANYTHING unless some foreigners died from it? ;) (or foreign dogs)

if you think those companies will cave in that easily just because their product is dangerous or deadly or unsafe, you OBVIOUSLY don't know China at all. :P]]>Jul 30th 2007 5:32AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/This is equivalent to washing your clothes with bleach :|]]>Jul 30th 2007 4:59AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 5:11AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 6:52AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
Personally, I will stick to what works well...water dissolves the soluble dirt from the clothing, and the soap emulsifies the insoluble dirt from the clothing so that the water can eliminate it. It's simple, it works, and heck...soap isn't that expensive. Besides...when water is electrolytically decomposed, it breaks into hydrogen gas and oxygen gas. What they propose is an electrolytic dissociation into hydrogen and hydroxide ions, and I don't see that happening without adding a chemical agent. Acids naturally raise a solution's hydrogen (hydronium) ion level, bases raise the hydroxide level. Put them both together in solution, and they do neutralize each other. The H from the acid and the OH from the base come together to form water (since the equilibrium between H+ + OH- H2O has a very small equilibrium constant, 10e-14), and the other ions come together to form salt. When dried, that salt comes out of solution and leaves a residue. Mmm, mommy, why is that horse licking your blouse?

Soap molecules dissolve in water, unless it is really hard water, in which case it forms an insoluble precipitate known as soap scum. Soap molecules have an ionic end (Where Na+ or K+ ions are ionically bonded to an oxygen that carries a negative charge due to one excess electron). This is the part of the soap molecule that water molecules are attracted to. The other end of the molecule, past the oxygen, is a carbon double bonded to another oxygen, and then (for stearate soaps) a chain of 17 carbons, each with hydrogens. This part of the molecule water is not attracted to, but grease is. So, the soap dissolves the grease, then the water dissolves the soap. It acts as an emulsifier, much in the same way that lecithin emulsifies the oil and water in mayonnaise. If not for the emulsifier, the water and oil would separate, and no one's spreading THAT on their sandwich!

Sodium Stearate, a soap molecule:

Na+ :O-CO-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH3
ionic end, nonpolar end, attracted to grease
attracted
to water

]]>Jul 30th 2007 6:53AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
The only thing I remember from high school chemistry was that I hated stoichiometry.]]>Jul 30th 2007 8:21AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 9:05AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
You have a very rigid and elementary understanding of water. Maybe you should read a little more about hydrology. Fortunately, your pride may be spared by the mere fact most individuals have a similar simplistic understanding of chemistry.

There is a complex interchange between water molecules and the molecules they interact with. Water molecules are constantly breaking apart and reassembling. pH readings actually measure excess hydrogen or hydroxyl, not an overall percentage of each. There is a constant electron exchange going on. In the absence of such an exchange, you are correct. There would not be a breakdown to individual ions, but this is not how things work in the real world. The electrolytic process exacerbates the electron exchange by introducing additional electrons.

While the basic chemistry behind all of this seems to make sense, I would be very interested to see this technology in practice. I have serious questions regarding effectiveness and safety. :-)
]]>Jul 30th 2007 10:23AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
Electronegativity, or an atom's attraction to electrons, can easily lead to the ionization of water. When water encounters a Bronsted/Lowry base, such as NH3, the hydrogen bonding between the N of the ammonia and the H of the water allows the H of the water to leave the water molecule, forming OH-. This is why ammonia is basic when dissolved in water. The H+ bonds to the ammonia molecule via coordinate covalent bonding to form the ammonium ion, NH4+.

When water molecules encounter an acid, particularly a strong acid, like HCl, the acid ionizes to form H+ and Cl- ions. Though the bond between the H and the Cl is covalent (polar covalent), the water molecules are capable of ripping it apart due to the high electronegativity difference between the O of the water and the H of the HCl. The H from the acid coordinate covalently bonds to the water molecule, forming H3O+, the hallmark of an acid (pH is the negative log of the H3O+ ion concentration in a solution). The Cl- ion is left behind.

I am a high school chemistry teacher with 19 years of experience and two college degrees, John. Please tell me your credentials, which have apparently led you to label me as "ignorant".

I find such comments as "Thanks for trying to impress us with your ignorance" to be very troubling. I guess I can see for myself the low regard for which knowledge and education are held among many people. I am saddened by this. I work my class to make it as fun, useful and productive as possible. This is not the first time my attempt to share information has been lambasted on this site. I do not appreciate it, nor do I appreciate being labeled "ignorant" by folks who know only a little about what they are spouting off about.

And yes, Chris. I flex my mental muscles whenever I can. I am a teacher after all, it's what I do and who I am. I am not trying to impress anyone. I am only trying to help clarify certain things of which I have knowledge. I should hope anyone would be willing to do the same.]]>Jul 30th 2007 10:41AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 12:09PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 9:06PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
BINGO! Well put. Long live Le Chatelier! :) Long live detergent!]]>Jul 31st 2007 7:07AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 7:44AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 8:10AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 10:23AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/Jul 30th 2007 1:46PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/haiers-detergentless-wash20-washing-machine/
How are they forcing the dissociation of H20?

H2O H+ + OH-

And more importantly, how are they maintaining dissociation in a quantity high enough to have the claimed effect?]]>Aug 1st 2007 1:13AM