Tesla scales range targets back up

It looks like the folks at Tesla are getting a little more confident in their all-electric and all-sold-out Roadster, as The New York Times is now reporting that the company has bumped its range targets back up to around 245 miles per charge. As you might recall, this follows a scaling back of range targets to just 200 miles per charge back in April, when the company's original estimates fell by the wayside when the car hit the dynamometer. One thing that's apparently not being pushed up, however, is the car's release date, with The New York Times also reporting that the initial run of 600 cars will now only "begin production late this year," making that promised roll out by the end of the year a bit of a tight proposition.

[Via AutoblogGreen]

[apeguero @ Sep 24th 2007 11:12AM]

I know I haven't RTFM or RTFA on this but perhaps someone here with the knowledge can answer for me just how much hurt this will have on my wallet with regards to my electricity bill?

[Preston @ Sep 24th 2007 11:15AM]

If you can afford to buy one of these cars, it won't hurt at all.

[Tim @ Sep 25th 2007 1:04PM]

a lot less than the equivalent you pay for regular gasoline...

[Zach @ Sep 24th 2007 11:51AM]

Unlike gasoline, free electricity is easy to find. For example, hotels would never fill up your gas tank for free. However, if you happen to be staying at a cheap motor inn where the car is parked right in front of the door, being an extension cord and charge the car for free.

[Alexander @ Sep 24th 2007 11:52AM]

If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it.

Seriously.

These cars are what Woz would call "Pricey--even for a first generation."

I am waiting for the Chevy Volt. I don't care what I have to do, that is my next car. If my current car goes FUBAR, then I am buying a Diesel. I just have to find out an American-made diesel that isin't a Mack truck...

[Brian @ Sep 24th 2007 12:22PM]

The Tesla website says that it will cost you less than 2 cents per mile to charge the battery. It takes 4 hours to charge the battery from dead to full - I imagine this is using the at home charging station and not the mobile charger that can be plugged into the wall.

Plus, they say that the only routine maintenance that you need to have done for the first 100,000 miles is to check the tires and brakes every 12,000 miles or 12 months.

They said the batteries shouldn't see any significant performance drop in the first 100,000 miles.

[apeguero @ Sep 24th 2007 12:35PM]

Thanks Brian.

Now I hope these same, "Green" thinking people making the Tesla will also consider making a more affordable electric car. I'd love to see the day when a simple, small, comfortable, not bare-bones, electric commuter car will cost about the same as a gasoline powered one. I have my fancy-schmanzy people mover mini-van which I use maybe 3 to 4 times a week (less than 125 miles/week). But I do use my 07 Jetta every day to commute to and from work and anywhere in between logging in over 380 miles per week, at least. I would love to trade that car in for a small yet comfortable (think Honda Fit) electric car that won't rape my bank account. And please don't say that these cars: http://www.electric-bikes.com/cars/ready.html#The%20Sparrow are the answer.

[Josh Warner @ Sep 24th 2007 2:02PM]

apeguero -

I think this is exactly what the Tesla people are after. I read something when this first was announced that their goal was to make a performance car, to convince people like you and me that fully electric is indeed a viable option... not just for the Green-tree-huggers, but also for the extreme performance crowd. I believe that their next project will be a "normal" car, suitable in price and performance for the masses.

This is essentially PR for them, and it seems they have done a great job. I'm looking forward to the next generation along with apeguero...

[bobartig @ Sep 24th 2007 5:00PM]

Given that Woz owns several Hummers, I don't think he would be that sticker shocked by a Tesla. Not that you can buy one now, but they only went for ~$100,000 until they sold out their initial production run.

Yes, you have to be fairly rich to get one, but there are plenty of exotic cars that go for much more. Hell, the Lexus LS08 Hybrid Starts at $104,000, makes the Tesla look down-right affordable.

[Cam @ Sep 24th 2007 11:22AM]

Until there is a sustainable renewable energy supply electric cars are no greener than your 4 cylinder compact.

[DorianGray @ Sep 24th 2007 11:31AM]

ahhh, but it's effin sexier!...

and your 4-cylinder Yaris doesn't do 0-60 in 4 seconds...

[joshua @ Sep 24th 2007 11:32AM]

but the tesla is "greener" than your ferrari but still comparable in acceleration

[Matt @ Sep 24th 2007 11:35AM]

Actually, with the increased in "green" works people are pushing.
Power supply to homes and other sources are being looked at to be powered by more "natural" resources, such as:
~Wind
~Sun
~Nuclear (if people would let us build more)
~Other

[kjb434 @ Sep 24th 2007 11:39AM]

BUZZ WORD ALERT!!!

Sustainable renewable energy? Unless we're defying the laws of physics and thermodynamics, this is completely impossible.

I'm sick and tire of people pushing ideas that have little basis in reality.

Outside of companies realizing that people will pay more for something when they slap "green, sustainable, or renewable" very few people benefit from this.

[Chris @ Sep 24th 2007 11:57AM]

"Outside of companies realizing that people will pay more for something when they slap "green, sustainable, or renewable" very few people benefit from this."

Yeah, just our children. Obviously we can't escape the laws of thermodynamics, but we can certainly try to screw things up as slowly as we can.

[Mike G @ Sep 24th 2007 11:59AM]

@kjb434

I believe the terms sustainable/renewable energy is not being thrown about as a way to defy the laws of physics and thermodynamics.

I had prepared to write a satirical response to your ignorance, yet I believe that would be a waste of good bytes.

So I decided to leave you with this bit of info:
I suppose you could say solar isn't renewable resource because once the sun is gone then you can't have another sun. I'd just say that was silly.

[staniel @ Sep 24th 2007 11:59AM]

Sustainable energy is a definite reality. All of the energy on this world comes from the sun anyways, whether it is in the form of dead plants/animals or PV cells. Sounds pretty sustainable to me.

[Daniel @ Sep 24th 2007 1:35PM]

From the Tesla Motors website,

With reguards to the battery comment:
"the tires and the battery of every Tesla Motors vehicle are recyclable."

And Cam's comment:
"Electricity may be just one answer, but it's an especially desirable one. As the universal currency of energy, it can be generated from coal, solar, wind, hydro, and nuclear sources — or a combination of all of them. No matter how or when the world changes, electricity can adapt, easily and safely."

And I couldn't find it, but I'm pretty sure the new ones come with a solar powered home charging station.

[jollyllama @ Sep 24th 2007 12:33PM]

"Until there is a sustainable renewable energy supply electric cars are no greener than your 4 cylinder compact."

Living in a place where 100% of our power comes from hydroelectric plants (the Northwestern US), I'd say that electricity is often a much greener than gas.

And yes, I know what dams do to salmon.S

[yakapo @ Sep 24th 2007 1:04PM]

i like to park my hummer in the compact parking spots.. it fit nicely (in 2 spots that is)

=)

[Grant @ Sep 24th 2007 1:19PM]

anyone with solar panels on the roof of their house(which is becoming commonplace these days) will tell you that you are wrong.

[Frankenstein Black @ Sep 24th 2007 6:34PM]

Solar, Roof, Hood and Trunk panels in the works for v3.0? Simply adds 2 hours to the charge time wile the Tesla SR (Solar Reactor) edition sits outside soaking up that most FREE, GREEN and abundant form of energy! "NATURE FINDS A WAY!" Sorry Oiligarchs!!

[chadow @ Sep 24th 2007 11:55AM]

An all electric car is "greener" then a hydrocarbon burning car in emissions AND in its recharging needs. The place where it looses its green-ness is in its battery creation and disposal.

Either way you feel about it, at least the sales of these types of cars furthers the science and shows auto makers that there is a demand for vehicles that don't need to burn fossil fuels.

[Robert Johnston @ Sep 24th 2007 1:14PM]

Personally, I still want the QED system from PML Flightlink. They converted a mini to totally electric by stripping out all the ICE systems AND the brakes, and replaced the lot with "Pancake" motors in the wheel hubs for drive and braking, as well as a small Diesel generator for long-distance driving (To recharge those batteries when you're driving from Nunavit to Florida)

[wiidude420 @ Sep 24th 2007 1:16PM]

if they can get 400-600 miles per charge with a 30 min to 1 hour chage than ya ill buy

[verdegrrl @ Sep 24th 2007 2:14PM]

A couple of comments:

The mileage claims achieved appears to be based on steady state motoring, not the more normal stop and go in traffic where the Tesla would normally be driven (longer road trips don't make sense based on recharge times). While some energy would be recovered, there is always a loss with each "exchange". I wonder if it includes running the a/c or heat, and the stereo as most folks would do in normal commuting?

What is the range of very hot or very cold days seeing as the car has both heaters and cooling system for the batteries that will draw down the charge? Can you leave it outside unplugged all day near freezing?

Sure it goes 0-60 in about 4 seconds. How many 0-60 runs can you make before needing a recharge?

Home charging appears to take 3.5 to 4 hours on 220volt. How about 110volt in the outside world?

It appears that Tesla assumes a car is worn out at 100,000 miles. The batteries will need replaced by then if not sooner, and the electric motors that drive the car typically are finished about then if other hybrid car makers are to be used as benchmarks (although those motors are assisted by gas engines under high stress situations).

Given that many US communities face future power shortages, more power plants are unpopular, the importation of electricity or natural gas from Canada and Mexico already, and emissions standards for coal fired plants in use are sometimes being reduced, not to mention transmission losses before the power reaches the car socket, the larger implications are not quite so rosy IMHO.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/gas.html

Do I think the electric car has a future? Sure. But we need to find a better solution when it comes to energy generation. Personally I think wave power generation could be a big thing if we can get around some of the environmantal issues. Europe is seeing more and more of these.

Finally, since the car is essentially silent, what safety systems will they incorporate to prevent pedestrians from coming to harm when they otherwise might not hear the car approaching?

[TrentD @ Sep 24th 2007 9:06PM]

::Finally, since the car is essentially silent, what safety systems will they incorporate to prevent pedestrians from coming to harm when they otherwise might not hear the car approaching?::
A horn :)

In all seriousness, good points.

[deenkpo @ Sep 24th 2007 8:19PM]

Here I am commenting on your questions the best that I can from what I have learned about the car.


"The mileage claims achieved appears to be based on steady state motoring, not the more normal stop and go in traffic where the Tesla would normally be driven (longer road trips don't make sense based on recharge times). While some energy would be recovered, there is always a loss with each "exchange". I wonder if it includes running the a/c or heat, and the stereo as most folks would do in normal commuting?"

The mileage is based on EPA tests. The same tests that is used for ant car to determine the sticker MPG. These test try to average all driving conditions, including city and freeway. Of course your driving habits will determine what you would get yourself.

"What is the range of very hot or very cold days seeing as the car has both heaters and cooling system for the batteries that will draw down the charge? Can you leave it outside unplugged all day near freezing?"

Not sure about this one, but since the batteries are maintained to keep their proper operating temperatures, I suspect that it will be a lot better than you would think.

"Sure it goes 0-60 in about 4 seconds. How many 0-60 runs can you make before needing a recharge?"

I have heard that if you could possibly maintain the power draw that maximum acceleration takes, you would get about a half to a full hour out of the battery. you can do the math on how many 0-60 runs you can make with that.

"Home charging appears to take 3.5 to 4 hours on 220volt. How about 110volt in the outside world?"

Again I have heard estimates as long as 8 hours from dead to full.

"It appears that Tesla assumes a car is worn out at 100,000 miles. The batteries will need replaced by then if not sooner, and the electric motors that drive the car typically are finished about then if other hybrid car makers are to be used as benchmarks (although those motors are assisted by gas engines under high stress situations)."

The batteries are not dead, but they just do not hold the same amount of charge as before. Your range will just be affected. As for the hybrids, most of them use a fixed magnet motor. The magnets in these do wear out over time, and the motor becomes less efficient. Tesla is using a phase induction motor (I think that is the correct term) meaning that there are no magnets in the motor to wear out, and thus last far longer than a hybrid's motor.

"Given that many US communities face future power shortages, more power plants are unpopular, the importation of electricity or natural gas from Canada and Mexico already, and emissions standards for coal fired plants in use are sometimes being reduced, not to mention transmission losses before the power reaches the car socket, the larger implications are not quite so rosy IMHO."

True, but electricity is available everywhere. Also the we can always add more capacity as the demand hits, or technology improves. As for alternative energies, I think that electricity is our best option for a while. Imagine how much energy it would take to build a support infrastructure to support fuel cells. Especially to the availability of electricity or gas.

I believe that as the demand increases, the market for better, cheaper, and cleaner electricity will increase. As it is, what incentives does our government have to improve our electricity? If it works, they wont fix it.

"Finally, since the car is essentially silent, what safety systems will they incorporate to prevent pedestrians from coming to harm when they otherwise might not hear the car approaching?"

How about good driving. All the safety systems in the world would not make up for a good driver. Besides, I have not heard a whole lot about the hybrids owners since the firs couple of miles tend to be silent also.

[Alex Campbell @ Sep 24th 2007 2:35PM]

Electricity is the cleanest option out there and I read an article over the weekend that in all of California, the highest per capita of residential solar stations is San Jose and Sebastopol. I work for ZAP near Sebastopol and many of our electric car customers are buying them to plug into their solar homes. This is definitely a step in the right direction as far as renewable energy. At the same time, plugging in your car at night uses surplus off-peak electricity, which causes no additional pollution.

[NHAnimator @ Sep 24th 2007 4:54PM]

"Tesla scales range targets back up"

Wha??? Wait... Oh, okay. I understand the headline now. Took me a minute.

[verdegrrl @ Sep 24th 2007 9:54PM]

"The mileage claims achieved appears to be based on steady state motoring, not the more normal stop and go in traffic where the Tesla would normally be driven "

>The mileage is based on EPA tests. The same tests that is used for ant car to determine the sticker MPG. <

What weather conditions were these tests done under? It will be very interesting to see real world range when these cars hopefully get used as they were marketed - as semi-exotic cars like the Lotus on which it is based, or the Porsche 911 which it's performance numbers mimic. Can I let off the throttle and use engine braking instead of brakes ipon approaching a corner? How come we haven't seen this technology in race cars?

"What is the range of very hot or very cold days seeing as the car has both heaters and cooling system for the batteries that will draw down the charge? "

>Not sure about this one, but since the batteries are maintained to keep their proper operating temperatures, I suspect that it will be a lot better than you would think.<

As somebody who has taken a conventional car to the Yukon several times, I would expect much the same from a car that costs $100K. 400 to 800 mile days packed with ice, gravel roads, and -40 temps. Will the Tesla be a toy or a real car?

"Sure it goes 0-60 in about 4 seconds. How many 0-60 runs can you make before needing a recharge?"

>I have heard that if you could possibly maintain the power draw that maximum acceleration takes, you would get about a half to a full hour out of the battery. <

Has any journalist been able to take the car for an extended drive? Will any before deliveries begin? Again, with heating/cooling/stereo and weather conditions, how much will this change? Typically it seems that traffic at lights moves along briskly if not 0-60 in 4 seconds every time. Maybe what, 8 to 10 seconds? This isn't as much a problem with a car that can be quickly fueled, but if a car needs to go find a plug for hours, this kind of unpredictable behaviour may not make it a very flexible transportation device.

"Home charging appears to take 3.5 to 4 hours on 220volt. How about 110volt in the outside world?"

>Again I have heard estimates as long as 8 hours from dead to full.<

Not a pretty prospect. Hardly practical as an only car isn't it? Or at least you go beyond the usual commute and errands.

"It appears that Tesla assumes a car is worn out at 100,000 miles. The batteries will need replaced by then if not sooner, and the electric motors that drive the car typically are finished about then if other hybrid car makers are to be used as benchmarks (although those motors are assisted by gas engines under high stress situations)."

>The batteries are not dead, but they just do not hold the same amount of charge as before. Your range will just be affected.<

Tesla says at 100,00K miles or 500 charges before "useful" life is impacted. How many mile range with full accessory is defined as "useful"? So if you were to plug in your car every 2nd night, that would be 3 years. If you plug in less often, you must keep in mind the ever decreasing range left in the batteries when planning out your day(s).

>As for the hybrids, most of them use a fixed magnet motor. The magnets in these do wear out over time, and the motor becomes less efficient. Tesla is using a phase induction motor (I think that is the correct term) meaning that there are no magnets in the motor to wear out, and thus last far longer than a hybrid's motor.<

Have phase induction motors been used in conditions of extreme heat, cold, dirt, salt, slush, and water? I do not have expertise in this area, but usually auto makers spend massive amounts of hours and hundreds of thousands of miles testing a car. I've seen cars being run through gritty dirty salt water baths under full throttle over and over again. Can we expect this kind of reliability from Tesla?

"Given that many US communities face future power shortages, more power plants are unpopular, the importation of electricity or natural gas from Canada and Mexico already, and emissions standards for coal fired plants in use are sometimes being reduced, not to mention transmission losses before the power reaches the car socket, the larger implications are not quite so rosy IMHO."

>True, but electricity is available everywhere. Also the we can always add more capacity as the demand hits, or technology improves. As for alternative energies, I think that electricity is our best option for a while. Imagine how much energy it would take to build a support infrastructure to support fuel cells. Especially to the availability of electricity or gas.<

Electricity is indeed everywhere, but it can easily become as expensive as gas once we have to develop exotic ways of extracting it. If electricity was easy to extract, we'd be doing it by now. As it stands, we have brownouts or blackouts during peak demand.

Fuel cells make little sense IMHO until we can figure out how to use less energy extracting hydrogen, than we get back out of it.

>I believe that as the demand increases, the market for better, cheaper, and cleaner electricity will increase. As it is, what incentives does our government have to improve our electricity? If it works, they wont fix it.<

People vote to not have power plants. They vote for tax rebates. They want cheaper utilities, so the government cuts back on plant emissions requirements. The government listens to the majority. As long as it can be obtained elsewhere, people will do their best to ignore it.

"Finally, since the car is essentially silent, what safety systems will they incorporate to prevent pedestrians from coming to harm when they otherwise might not hear the car approaching?"

>How about good driving. All the safety systems in the world would not make up for a good driver. Besides, I have not heard a whole lot about the hybrids owners since the firs couple of miles tend to be silent also.<

Search google for "safety electric hybrid noise" for over 1.5 million hits. Given traffic in the Bay area is especially casual about turn signals or following any other basic road use skills, we cannot depend on that.

Finally, the battery pack in a Tesla is around 1000lbs. Not as big a deal on one of the lightest cars already being built. Add 1000lbs instead of 400lbs for a gas engine to a regular family car......?

[deenkpo @ Sep 25th 2007 3:34PM]

Here is a short reply for a change!!

The EPA distance test are done in a lab with a dynometer. (I believe that is the right term.) Tesla has done ice driving and desert testing to ensure drive ability under extreme conditions. I heard that the car has already passed durability testing, which was why they reduced the range in the first place.

Their blog has been updated with more info:

http://www.teslamotors.com/blogs.php

On a side note, I looked up hybrid accidents due to their silent operation, and I did not see anything of value. A lot of talk, but nothing that actually proves that they are more dangerous than normal cars. But I will repeat what I said. Nothing can replace a good driver in terms of safety.

[importjap @ Sep 24th 2007 11:58PM]

"Only" 200 miles per charge. 200 miles is good 245 is better :)