Tase me, baby: Taser responds to the UN, says tasers aren't torture

Looks like the Taser parties are back on -- Taser issued a terse rebuttal to the UN today, finding fault with its conclusion that being hit with a taser is equivalent to torture. Saying that the committee is "out of touch with the reality that confronts law enforcement officers every day worldwide," Taser also noted that the criteria used to define torture, "extreme pain," also rules out other common police implements like pepper spray and batons. Like some other reports we've seen, Taser says that since their products don't actually electrocute people, the main danger involved in being struck with a taser is an "unassisted fall," which seems to us like pretty much the only kind of fall there is -- but we're not getting in the middle of this one. Looks like this is going to be a long fight -- everybody got their popcorn?

[mushrooshi @ Nov 29th 2007 8:30AM]

My sister pisses me off too much; would this work?[/sarcasm]

[superfresh @ Nov 29th 2007 10:30AM]

I suggest that while there is debate on this issue that we cease using tasers and switch to something that we're sure is NOT torture.

Waterboarding.

[blade417 @ Nov 29th 2007 8:31AM]

Tasers are also great sex toys...

I mean self defense mechanisms.

[Chuck @ Nov 29th 2007 8:33AM]

Tasers arn't torture?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7116917.stm

[Josh L @ Nov 29th 2007 8:40AM]

"Tasers arn't torture?"

No. They aren't.

Tasers can be USED to torture by torturers. But so can water, and sand, and bamboo, and car batteries, and wire cutters, and syringes. Calling all taser-owners torturers is as ignorant and idiotic as calling all gun-owners murderers, though I guess I shouldn't expect much more from the UN.

[Azayzel @ Nov 29th 2007 8:49AM]

Gee, this is a no-brainer here... get shot by a real gun and need some type of surgery or get tazed and wake up in the back of the cruiser. Too bad gang-bangers don't use these devices instead of guns, that way there'd be less kids lying dead in the streets regardless of what country you live in.

Police need some type of weapon to fight crime with, a taser isn't any more of a torture device than a screwdriver. It's simply a humane method of bringing down someone who deserves it without actually wounding them with a bullet or nightstick. Maybe they need to take out the people complaining about Tasers and give them the option of bullet or taser? That would solve the discussion then and there.

[I LOVE THE CAPS LOCK KEY @ Nov 29th 2007 8:52AM]

Tasers surely beat the alternative; a bullet in the head.

Taser > .45 Cal

[wjousts @ Nov 29th 2007 10:01AM]

@Josh L

"Tasers can be USED to torture by torturers. But so can water, and sand, and bamboo, and car batteries, and wire cutters, and syringes."

The problem with your analogy is that a Taser is designed for inflicting pain. It has no other uses. I don't disagree with your view point, I just think you analogy is flawed.

[shmengie @ Nov 29th 2007 10:43AM]

@wjousts: actually, tasers are not DESIGNED to inflict pain. they are designed to immobilize someone by taking away their motor skills via an electric shock. the pain is just a by-product.

[Colorado @ Nov 29th 2007 10:57AM]

@wjousts

"The problem with your analogy is that a Taser is designed for inflicting pain. It has no other uses. I don't disagree with your view point, I just think you analogy is flawed."

Are you serious? Do you honestly believe that the Taser is a weapon meant to harm people? The Taser is a device that is designed to disrupt muscle control in order to subdue a target. If you wanted to inflict pain, wouldn't you use something cheaper and more... painful, like a baton?

[boing @ Nov 29th 2007 10:59AM]

if we all had professional and honorable police officers there wouldn't be a problem, when you've got trigger happy thugs using them things get serious.

[wjousts @ Nov 29th 2007 12:23PM]

@shmengie: Okay, maybe designed isn't the right way to put it, but they inflict a lot of pain as part of their normal operation, which the others do not.

@Colorado: "Do you honestly believe that the Taser is a weapon meant to harm people?"

Did I say that? No I didn't. Inflicting pain and harming somebody are not the same thing. And for the record, most forms of torture are focused on causing pain, not necessarily harm. Because if you cause no lasting damage it's harder for the tortured to prove that it ever happened.

[MasterCKO @ Nov 29th 2007 1:08PM]

I think that wjousts is exactly right (i.e.: the analogy he commented on is somewhat flawed -- though I also agree with the intent of the original comment).

Anyway, @boing: you bring up what is essentially my view on the issue. They're great as another (usually) non-lethal tool to use for law enforcement, but I think that their overuse by cops who now have a cool toy to "take fools down" is becoming a problem.

Like the old Polish guy. I wasn't there, but it seems to me that there's no way that multiple relatively healthy, relatively young cops could have had so much of a problem subduing him that they absolutely needed to taser him.

I feel that the tensions are heightened because it's a relatively new thing for tasers' use to be so widespread. After a few years, it'll probably get better. Law enforcement agencies will get more used to them and implement stricter policies on when they can be used; the public will get used to them and won't get all sensationalist when seeing them used on people that actually need to be subdued in that fashion.

[daliminator2000 @ Nov 29th 2007 8:35AM]

Psst engadget I think your RSS feed's broken...top story's showing up as "Optimus Maximus in minimus sub-$1000 configurations".

[daliminator2000 @ Nov 29th 2007 10:11AM]

never mind...guess it was a temporary glitch with firefox or something...

[Static @ Nov 29th 2007 8:40AM]

I'm not sure how that article equates Tasers with torture.

[Xzavier @ Nov 29th 2007 8:44AM]

I don't care what those guys at TASER say. I bet their ass wont like it if somebody taser them!

[SleeplessKn1ght @ Nov 29th 2007 8:59AM]

Which is probably why they don't break laws.

[Blackster @ Nov 29th 2007 9:10AM]

like that polish dude at the airport?
the cops took their sweet time to assess the situation (almost 45 seconds ;) )

[GideoN @ Nov 29th 2007 10:23AM]

I'm pretty sure that some of Taser's employees have been shocked by their own product. Based on many videos on the internet, there are many displays of volunteers trying them out. I don't doubt some employees have been tased so I would think twice about that statement.

I would gladly take an electric jolt from a taser than a 9mm hollow-point.

[Xzavier @ Nov 29th 2007 11:06AM]

I didn't realize that you had to break a law to get taser?

Hold on a minuet... what law did Andrew Meyer break... oh yea... he broke the law that states "don't ask the police to taser you if you are doing nothing wrong except speaking your opinion at a University lecture hall."

[John @ Nov 29th 2007 12:42PM]

actually, he was creating a public disturbance, and the cops were functioning as basically security guards and getting him out when he was screaming like an idiot child. And yes, when you do not comply with a reasonable order from a police officer, that IS breaking the law.

[huh @ Nov 29th 2007 2:47PM]

@John, they were not following their procedure; there is no way they should have Tasered him so quickly. Investigations are under way, but they have admitted as much, and it's obvious from the video.

[riggs @ Nov 29th 2007 8:43AM]

*ahem* mi mi mi miiiiiiii

DONT TASE ME BRO!!!


thank you. *bows*

[ugg.tryptophan @ Nov 29th 2007 1:15PM]

give me your address so i can taze you

[netposer @ Nov 29th 2007 8:45AM]

I wonder what weapons the body guards of UN folks cary? Guns? Tasers?

[ugg.tryptophan @ Nov 29th 2007 11:45PM]

nukes?

[Alan @ Nov 29th 2007 8:47AM]

Anybody have any stats of injury/death from police force that does not involve tazers? Just from the stories I've heard from a friend who works as a guard at the county jail (and is not allowed to use a taser), it is not uncommon for an imate to get serverly injured or even die from guards having to use brute force.

[Art Garcia @ Dec 22nd 2007 12:15PM]

I believe Tasers themselves aren't torture devices.

They become torture devices when the piece of crap who uses them starts deriving pleasure by tazing over and over. You've seen the videos of some moron cop tazing a person over and over. thats torture.

[widgetware @ Nov 29th 2007 9:18AM]

100% Agree.
Tasers are a better solution than projectile weapons that kill more likely.

But the problem is, that you will fire rather with a taser than with a gun. You will still think twice before using a fireweapon, but with a teaser you propably wont.
There should be an institution that checks if the use was acceptable or not, and if not the cop should be fired or teasered ^^.

Have a nice day.

[NewJohnny @ Dec 11th 2007 3:50AM]

No, it's an inexperienced police officer expecting a different result from what they're seeing. They were trained to expect a compliant suspect after getting tased, but the reality is a lot of people just keep on going. So they get tased again. What we need is better training for law enforcement, and braver men and women who are willing to talk to or wrestle the suspect before breaking out the taser.

[Will @ Nov 29th 2007 9:21AM]

Ok, so "extreme pain" is what makes it a torture device. So, what, are we gonna arm the police with happy loving puppies, complimentary beer for criminals, and super models with which to deploy blow-jobs?

Yeah, that'll stop crime...

[MikeWPBF @ Nov 29th 2007 9:29AM]

ummm Will, Can you tell me what crime gets me the last punishment?

Just curious that's all.

:)

[huh @ Nov 29th 2007 11:22AM]

You're right. It'd be a really bad idea to give an outraged, out of control person a glass of water and some understanding words. Better Tase 'em, because it's so much better than shooting them.

[Robert @ Nov 29th 2007 4:27PM]

@huh
huh?

[Agus @ Nov 29th 2007 9:26AM]

teasers are not torture? So I will have one on my pocket just in case hehe
http://www.spymac.com/details/?2309609

[kuzu-b @ Nov 29th 2007 9:35AM]

Ok, no more tasers, we will just have cops go back to shooting everything that moves. People have to find a way to fucking complain about anything and everything.

[MW @ Nov 29th 2007 9:47AM]

I suppose that cops could just start shooting or beating everyone instead of trying to subdue them. Say you're in a busy (insert location) and the cop(s) are trying to restrain someone near you. Would you:

1. Have them open fire while you are close, taking a chance of killing/wounding you?

2. Using pepper spray, in which case might get you if you happen to be too close?

3. Use a device that looks like it hurts like hell, but only affects the target?

- of course the cops can miss with the taser, but the chances of you dying from a bullet are better than dying from a taser.

People have no idea what it's like to put your life second to the public. This is something a police officer does, or is suppose to. They are here to protect us. Sure, some of them are bastards and do dastardly things BUT not all of them.

You never know when someone might have a weapon, so you have to act accordingly. People need to get over their frail sensibilities and realize that if you're going to refuse to listen to police, you bet your a$$ you're going to be in trouble.

[JE @ Nov 29th 2007 10:57AM]

You're missing the point - Police officers are not required to sacrifice themselves for the public. They are around to maintain order, but their number one priority is (and should always be) staying alive and relatively safe. If a criminal comes towards a cop with a knife, it's not the cop's responsibility to try to grapple with the criminal to take the knife away, it's his duty to stop the criminal. Previously, the officer's only choice was to put a bullet in the person, now they can use a Taser, which will most likely not kill the person.

[wrabbit @ Nov 29th 2007 9:49AM]

Police must have a way to incapacitate a dangerous individual - seems to me that a taser is a much safer (to everyone involved) way to do that than a gun. If UN has better alternatives they should let us know otherwise get back to being incompetent.

[huh @ Nov 29th 2007 10:36AM]

As others have pointed out, a cop is often more likely to use the Taser than to try and use more rational means, like talking (in the Vancouver airport case, they had multiply Tased the man within 30 seconds of arriving, and he wasn't even resisting. Watch the video, and imagine how many times this happens without video).

I have full respect for police (the decent ones), but the fact is television exaggerates their job. There are many police officers, and in reality they very, very rarely draw their gun. Policing is not even on the top ten of most dangerous jobs. Social workers face daily dangerous situations they have to defuse, probably more often than police.

[Dan @ Nov 29th 2007 12:09PM]

Maybe it's time to bring back swords and spears. It would be in keeping with the general de-evolution of our species.

[MosquitoControl @ Nov 29th 2007 9:52AM]

Tasering puts the possibility of harm on the guy causing that possibility. If cops have to fight a guy down he could hurt them or people around. If they tase he hopefully just drops.


Yes, they shouldn't be overused. However, many jurisdictions require cops to go through a taser training which includes being tased. I fully support that. Cops then know exactly what they're doing because it's been done to them.

[rudeboy @ Nov 29th 2007 10:09AM]

taking down an unarmed guy with a taser should only be ok when he threatens other people BUT NOT THE COPS ! - they have been trained, they should be skilled, its their job, and besides .. if the suspect injures an officer / resists arrest there allready is a punishment for that.

[Thierry @ Nov 29th 2007 10:37AM]

Taser itself tells that is X26 is a danger when is stated : "the main danger involved in being struck with a taser is an unassisted fall..." to add to the 50 kV shock !
Taser refered to DST Lab to find pro arguments, but Taser ignored another DST Lab's report at
http://www.dstl.gov.uk/science_spot/shoot_to_stun.php
stating the opposite : We need to determine "The accuracy or discrimination of the weapons and their risk of affecting the two most vulnerable parts of the body, the skull and the chest – and especially the brain and heart.[...] In the case of tasers it was clear that, despite many years’ use in the USA, their effects were not really understood".

[besobeso @ Nov 29th 2007 10:20AM]

Here are the common alternitives that police have when dealing with someone that can't se subdued by hands alone:

Baton
OC spray
TASER
gun

If I were on the receiving end of said force, I would be saying "Taze me, bro!" Is it pleasant? Nope, I've done it. But after a 5 second burst, the pain is gone...this is not so with the other options. This is actually the real issue with a TASER, a police officer has to be trained to secure the aggressor while the initial burst is being applied. If they don't, the persons recovers, and continues to resist. This is what happens in the videos you see where someone receives multiple bursts, there is no reason that they couldn't have been cuffed during the inital burst, in most cases. If you don't touch the subject between the probes, you won't get shocked, so cuffing is relatively easy (most of the time...some people go as stiff as a board). Regardless, people have died after being on the receiving end of all the above options. All of the above options can be misused as a torture device. None of the above options are perfect. It would be a shame to eliminate the one device that has the potential to eliminate the others. As the one technological device on the list you can assume that if will follow Moore's Law and continue to improve, becoming more versitile, more efficient, and of course safer. I'm no Ray Kurzweil, but I think one day soon we will be looking back at the archaic time when cops had to hit people with sticks and spray chemicals in their face as the real barbarism, and the TASERs will be the humanitarians weapon of choice.

[huh @ Nov 29th 2007 11:02AM]

Yes, we've seen some devices on this very site where entire crowds can be immobilized. But it's just as likely to be a dystopian future, where no one can complain, everyone has to be the same, and nothing can change.

[khaiyam @ Nov 29th 2007 10:23AM]

I think the UN is more concerned with Tasers potentiality as a torture device.

I do not think cops would use a gun and shoot bullets as a means of torture, while somebody could be tasered repeatedly as means of torture.

Also unlike guns, tasers could be used by cops more indiscriminately.

[Dave @ Nov 29th 2007 10:26AM]

Of course you could always TRAIN THE POLICE PROPERLY. No, stupid of me, that would cost money.
How about reducing the threat to the police? How stupid of me, that would involve gun control and the Americans must be able to defend themselves against the redcoats.
Our Police (in the UK) are mainly unarmed and the number of fatalities at the hands of the UK police is a tiny fraction of the US record. Why? Many reasons, the 1st being the fact that very few people own firearms, secondly the police are trained to incapacitate people without resorting to (potentially) deadly force. but mainly you must have "policing by consent" if the populace feel the police are not out to help them (look at France now) then everybody suffers. Currently it looks like some American police are totally off the rails.

[Dimplemonkey @ Nov 29th 2007 11:18AM]

Hmm..

UK population as of 2005 = 60 million
UK land area = 94,526 sq. mi.

US population as of 2006 = 300 million
US land area = 3.79 million sq. mi.

"Our Police (in the UK) are mainly unarmed and the number of fatalities at the hands of the UK police is a tiny fraction of the US record."

Well DUH!