In case you haven't been following all the drama over at Engadget Mobile, Taiwanese smartphone kingpin HTC is seeing a rather unexpected
customer backlash over sub-par video playback in recent devices employing Qualcomm's MSM7xxx chipsets -- apparently, handsets like the popular TyTN II and Touch Cruise were purposely shipped without drivers that would take advantage of the embedded ATI Imageon acceleration hardware. And now, instead of issuing a mea culpa or at least providing the drivers for a small fee, HTC has basically
suggested in a recent statement that consumers will need to upgrade to future products if they want "high-resolution video support." Obviously customers are outraged, with the statement only fueling further talk of a
class action lawsuit.
We think it's time for the Engadget community at large to weigh in on this snowballing controversy: what (if anything) should HTC have done differently in order to maintain the proactive, customer-friendly image that it has up to this point been known for?
posted Jan 23rd 2008 at 9:45AM
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
orion.cassetto @ Jan 23rd 2008 12:21PM
I own an HTC Touch and it does have Wifi, 3g, flash, skins etc.
Dan @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:31AM
For allt he people that say "it's about the performance of the phone not just the video playback" and "the phone sucks it doesn't work" and "I'll never buy another HTC phone again, I hated the experience with this one"...
Why didn't you test the phone out before making a purchase? Or exercise the right to return within the first 30 days (as most if not all phone carriers have)?
Seriously, when you found out it stunk you should have returned it, not hoped for a driver update that may never come.
Chris S. @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:41AM
No reviews showed the device as lacking in any area (other than being too bulky). We believed that HTC would respond with a positive sentiment, because the overall device is wonderful, other than it being hobbled and slow. I use my device for phone calls and web browsing, just like I did my old W330i. I did expect more, but not enough to return the phone unless a statement such as the one HTC released was available.
To be honest, several people calling HTC's support lines have been informed that HTC was, "working on the issue." So, if they're working on it, why bother returning the phone? We were mislead, but I think it's more of a buyer's remorse. I will not buy another HTC product (Palm or i-Mate, I'm looking at you, too), but I was expecting more.
If anything, I'm disappointed. .
Dan @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:16AM
@Chris
At least you admit that there is buyers remorse going on here.
Honestly, they didn't advertise the functionality, you had the opportunity to test it and nothing was hidden by HTC (not like they said 'functionality supported soon' and never delivered).
Why bother returning the phone if HTC is working on it? Well, everyone describes it as 'a 640x480 monitor,' 'can't use the camera,' and 'ATi chip but computer is using Intel integrated graphcis.' That sounds pretty awful to me, why wait and hope?
Chris S. @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:23AM
Because you have faith that a company with a reputation would like to preserve that reputation. That, and XDA-Devs had people trying to issue a fix, but that road hit a dead-end. This is about letting future buyers of HTC products know that HTC really doesn't look at the customer as much as undercutting prices and selling future devices.
This is about informing the general public as to a company's bad practices, hoping that may switch the company from, "LoL Money, Money LoL," to, "oh, that's right, we have to provide for the customer the full device they paid for."
BTW, it has nothing to do with a 640x480 monitor. Where'd you pull that from?
Dan @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:33AM
@Chris
I'm not commenting on HTC's PR practices here (personally I think it's moronic as they've enjoyed a great reputation in the industry and are now shooting themselves in the foot). But again, to hope that a company will do something it doesn't have to do, and to hope that a group of people on the internet will create an unofficial fix, is not the best thing to do.
Inform the public, that's how this country works! But I'm tired of hearing all the people complaining about "we were misled!" and "false advertising!" and of course there will be the eventual class-action lawsuit.
The 640x480 monitor thing was from an_assholes 10.32 post above.
Chris S. @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:53AM
As much as I'd like to not agree with you, the truth is that HTC is not providing us support. We're out on an island, and XDA-Devs are trying to build a bridge, but we're just here for a while. I think the end result will be they'll release a future version that has the drivers, they'll be back-ported, and our 1-year-old TyTN II's by that time will be the devices they could be now. Or, HTC completely shut down the use of the graphics chip in the Qualcomm processor, thereby rendering our devices powerful, GPS/3G/WiFi-enabled LeapFrogs. Yeah, we can use the device to its full, current potential, but I feel I'm running an emulator for Windows Mobile and not Windows Mobile itself.
riobard @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:31AM
lol!
why can't MS put some strict hw/sw requirements for their software? kind of the "runs (almost) vista" stickers...
kal326 @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:34AM
Why not go after the carriers, pressure them to get HTC to develop the rom for their devices that includes the driver. I'm sure the carriers play some part in updates to devices, I certainly doubt HTC upgraded the Dash to WM6 out of the kindness of their hearts. If T-Mobile or other carriers that brand that model wanted WM6 I'm sure the put some pressure on HTC to make it so.
Why not start banging on AT&T to get some additional leverage on HTC, they have a vested interest in keeping their customers happy and moving devices as well. I got a free upgrade on my 8125 that improved performance, why the hell haven't we gotten the same for the Tilt?
If there is an validity to the free update to the iPhone because you are contractually bound to the device, wouldn't the same hold true for Tilt owners under a AT&T contract?
Khris @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:36AM
Was the Touch Cruiser/TyTN II advertised as having the accelerator? No? Awww.....too friggin bad!!
You got exactly what you paid for and have no recourse to whine and moan that the accelerator isn't being utilized since it was never advertised to begin with.
Chris S. @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:43AM
Say that when you purchase your next appliance, let's say a washer, and it doesn't do anything but normal wash cycle, but the listed model supports delicates/permanent press, but the dial won't turn there. Tell your wife, "Awww, too bad, honey, you got what you paid for."
An_asshole @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:52AM
Yes, you fucking moron, it was (and is) advertised as using the chipset that contains hardware accelerated video rendering:
http://www.htc.com/product/03-product_compare_tytnII&p4350.htm
Dave @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:59AM
Khris,
I'm sure I speak for every TyTn II and Polaris owner when I tell you to f*ck off. You dont own this device, so you have NO IDEA how unresponsive and bad it is...my mother's Hermes is twice as responsive and plays back video a MILLION times better and its 2 YEARS OLD! Also, for EARLY ADOPTERS, driver updates are expected. They arent some sort of luxury.
Khris @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:09AM
@ Chris
Your analogy is wrong. Show me where the TyTN II is ADVERTISED as USING video acceleration, not simply that it's using a chip that HAS acceleration built into it. Big difference.
@ An_asshole
What an appropriate nickname. See my point directed to Chris as the link you posted is useless.
@ Dave
There's a reason I don't own it. I had the common sense to try it out first before blinding purchasing it. Driver updates are expected....you're correct, but expecting a driver for a feature which was never initially advertised is a poor assumption on your part.
Dave @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:18AM
Khris...
We are NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE ATI IMAGEON DRIVERS!!! That is the story that HTC has run with to make us look unreasonable. We are complaining about the lack of VIDEO RENDERING SUPPORT, and if you dont know the difference you should not be commenting on this issue (and you obviously don't know the difference).
Chris S. @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:34AM
http://www.htc.com/press_room/03-press-070905.htm
Yes, HTC has the MSM7200(tm) in the Tilt/TyTN II. Once again, do you know of any washer that advertises each and every setting? No. But, it's there in the specs of the device, right? It's on the dial, it's in the machinery, it's there. Same thing. This phone may not state that it does 3D acceleration, but it has the chip capable of doing so, or, at the very LEAST, allowing it to perform at a more responsive speed than is currently available.
Now, you say you've tried out the phone before, "blinding (sic) purchasing it." Then, you know why we're upset, and you're just trolling. OR, you're working for HTC. In either case, I think you answered the poll and you needn't play the devil's advocate for too long, or you might not grow out of that phase of immaturity. Your Pampers be pimpin'.
panoz @ Feb 11th 2008 6:53AM
Well then what if your next pc comes with a cpu with its cache disabled? or perhaps a video card, lets say 8800gt with its hd video accel disabled? whould you be happy?
no??
why? not every vendor advertises explicitly the features of the components of their products, but you, and me and everyone expects them when we buy them. Because an "Intel q6600 inside" sticker or "Cpu : intel q6600" line on the specsheet directly implies that it has EVERYTHING the INTEL Q6600 Specs have, inclusive. When i advertise that it uses a msm7500 chipset i imply that it has hardware video accel, because it is right there on the specsheet of the chipset, otherwise one must advertise that it uses the msm7500 with the video accel DISABLED. And sell it as "celeron" msm7500 if it rings you any bells..
tim @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:56AM
This is not about "high resolution video" and it's not specifically about the ATI Imageon, although HTC certainly did lead people to believe it would be included and enabled on phones like the Tytn II. No, what this is actually about is the normal, every day display speed of the phone, from playing standard video to opening the Start menu, using the camera, sliding the keyboard open to switch it all to landscape - it's ALL slow, and significantly sub-par. This is a 400mhz device that runs like a 200mhz device from a couple of years ago, or worse in some cases. Not good.
Kurian @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:40AM
WTF... Why cant they just release a ROM update?
OneLove @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:47AM
If it wasn't advertised in the original specs stop whining...HTC/Sprint wheres my mogul GPS and evdo rev A. rom? :(
Davis4ever @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:47AM
There is a HUGE community for Cooking WM6 for HTC products. Just go get a driver. Do people keep the stock crap that Dell, Acer, etc, ship on laptops? --- i hope not! www.xda-developers.com (this isn't warez, it's all legit product upgrades/replacments) The WM6 Roms there are always better then the stock HTC ones.
Dave @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:04AM
You're so ignorant. If you ever have been on XDA-Devs, you would realize that we have been trying for over the last 2 months to develop these drivers, but without the SDK from HTC it is literally impossible. Maybe you should actually do some research before blindly posting on here.
derspiess42 @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:52AM
Well I guess I can feel better about choosing my Moto Q 9c over either of the HTC phones Sprint was offering 2 months ago. A buddy of mine had the Mogul & then the Touch after he went through 2 or 3 faulty Moguls. He hasn't mentioned anything negative about the Touch yet, but after reading here, he doesn't have to.
An_asshole @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:54AM
And none of them contain this driver. In fact, there's a bounty over there for anyone who can implement the driver. It was over $4k last I saw. Any other bright ideas, genius?
KnightRider @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:58AM
Even those are not any better redg video. I have tried several.
Moubarak @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:56AM
Everybody needs to calm down. My Mogul makes calls, syncs email, plays music and videos, plays tv (slingbox), connects to the internet, reads all my documents and much more. The only thing missing is gps, which i hear is coming soon. Everyone is complaining over video play back???????? C'mon people. GO BUY AN IPOD, ZUNE OR A TV!!!!!!!!!
An_asshole @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:11AM
>Everyone is complaining over video play back????????
Did you even read this thread before opening your piehole? You are capable of reading right? No one is complaining about video playback. People are complaining about *video rendering.* If you can't see the difference, then you shouldn't even be involved in the discussion.
Moubarak @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:40AM
Its so funny how passionate you are. LMAO. So it takes a second for the phone screen to switch from horizontal to vertical. Someone give me a prozac. LOL.
SimbaDogg @ Jan 23rd 2008 1:06PM
you're a moron
John @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:59AM
I think most people would expect a laptop with an advertised hardware graphics accelerator include the drivers for the hardware. Why should it be any different for mobile devices, especially when the manufacturer touts them as being... "More powerful than any mobile communications device you've seen before " and you get better performance from a model they shipped two years ago. No one sees anything wrong with this picture? Hey, I've got some nice waterfront property to sell YOU. :)
Perhpas if they had said "more features", it would be a different story, but this is flat out misrepresentation of the product. It's like the hired a champion weightlifter to move a couple boxes of those annoying stryofoam peanuts.
boe @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:05AM
With the Mogul Bluetooth issues - SPrint said it was HTC's fault, HTC said call Sprint they are responsible for the drivers - it took 5 months of constant posting before both companies took it seriously.
When Verizon and Sprint unlock their networks and other companies such as eten and imate consider making cdma phones - there isn't a lot of pressure for HTC to do much to fix their phones as neither Verizon or Sprint offer a lot of choices in manufacturers. While they do have a few to choose from many are made by HTC other other brand names.
While NO ONE makes a perfect PDA phone - part of it is planned obsolesence so the manufacturer can sell you new models, part of it is gimping on the part of the carrier - disable mms, disable the GPS or spec it with a gimped agps to begin with, part of it is bad design, part of it is a limitation of current technology - it is hard for me to go back to a standard phone.
The good news is standard phones are getting more and more features - better voice recognition, better BT technology, better browsing, better e-mail capabilities - HTC, apple and MS will have to work harder for us to want to pay extra for a full pda phone. The bad news is they are just a bit better for everything they do better, they seem to do something worse. MS and HTC should really get together and figure out why the BT on free phones reaches further, has less static, draws less power and is clearer sounding on free phones than their $500 pda phones.
J @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:04AM
If I had known that the Tilt was going to be this slow (especially when sliding open the keyboard & screen takes forever to rotate) I would not have bought this phone. Seeing as how I already purchased it I was planning on selling it and buying an iPhone but I've decided to wait for the 3G iPhone to come out. Until then I'll be waiting for HTC to come out with a fix for this. For now you can find me over at xda-developers.
ThePhwner @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:07AM
For real peeps....this isn't a PMP, its a phone. The primary focus is phone calls, SMS, mobile browsing/email, etc. If you're that concerned over high-res video on your phone, PMPs and UMPCs are all over the place. Its pretty silly to expect a pocket-sized device will be the best of everything.
MM
An_asshole @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:22AM
Ingest paint chips as a child? How many posts on this topic specifically point out that it isn't about high resolution video playback but rather *video rendering* to the screen? I count at least 5. Some people around here are slow on the uptake.
The camera is slow, the UI is slow, everything is slow because it's all software rendered.
But yes, please, continue to spout opinions you obviously have no knowledge about.
ThePhwner @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:39AM
:) Very appropriate name. At least you don't try to hide it.
You may be right - I don't see how having working knowledge of over 500 handsets in my lab and running a device team for a worldwide mobile content and platform provider qualifies me to "spout off" about devices.
I was aware that high-res video is not the only concern, but I stick to my original statement. If you want a portable device to be the best of everything, you need a UMPC. These mobiles are not designed to be high-end media devices, and its foolish to expect that anything running on a WinMo platform is going to be all that hot.
The Tilt is still smaller than the first mobile phone I used, and offers features in a handheld that were unthinkable 5 years ago.
I'm gonna go back to testing phones for compliance pre-carrier lab entry.
Ayle @ Jan 23rd 2008 4:05PM
"More powerful than any mobile communications device you've seen before, the HTC TyTN II takes global connectivity to the next level" And that's quoted from the htc website, and there is no asterisk there either, so it is clearly advertised as more powerful that previous generation device but yet my 8125 behave better than a device with twice as much ram and cpu power than it has.... There is clearly a problem there.
ThePhwner @ Jan 23rd 2008 4:10PM
I think what folks are overlooking is that this device also runs Windows and is the Tilt is the first for AT&T with WinMo6.
Did everyone forget that Microsoft is not the best OS provider?
Even if we collectively agree that HTC should have enabled the enhanced rendering, this is not the ONLY usability concern over this device.
Nokia makes some pretty bad-ass 3G media phones without Windows that don't have this issue.
Dave @ Jan 23rd 2008 4:45PM
do you read the posts at all? we've only said it like 5 times: We are NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE ATI IMAGEON DRIVERS!!! That is the story that HTC has run with to make us look unreasonable. We are complaining about the lack of VIDEO RENDERING SUPPORT, and if you dont know the difference you should not be commenting on this issue (and you obviously don't know the difference).
ThePhwner @ Jan 23rd 2008 5:21PM
Actually, there are posts where people are specifically venting about the lack of inclusion of the ATI drivers. Here's one example.
"lmjabreu @ Jan 23rd 2008 9:59AM
The people who bought the device PAYED for that ATI Imageon chip, they have the right to be able to use it."
Do you not have anything better to do than get this angry on an internet forum?
I CAN TYPE IN ALL CAPS TOO!!!!!!!
If you have any more questions, my Tilt and Touch are right here next to me...
Dave @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:08PM
ok asshole, but is that your only argument here? because I'm talking about HTC lack of DirectDraw drivers for the TyTn II, and since you are apparently such hot shit with your big testing team the overall lack of responsiveness of the device should also be apparent to you.
ThePhwner @ Jan 23rd 2008 10:59PM
See above. I did reference multiple usability concerns. We clearly disagree on the cause.
Steve @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:09AM
Sure, maybe HTC didn't explicitly advertise: "hardware graphics acceleration for smoother on-screen performance." But what if you bought a PC, it said it had a nvidia 8800 ultra in it, then you started it up and there was no driver support for it? You contact NVIDIA, and they refuse to provide support for that model of computer. Yeah, the PC never was advertised as a gaming PC with extreme graphical hardware, but it's in there, and you paid for it. You want the support you know they can give you but aren't.
I carry a $700 AT&T Tilt (Tytn II). But my last phone, a falling apart HTC Magician that lacked even WiFi had a smoother GUI, smoother camera performance, and better video playback. And the magician was a late-2004 product.
The point is that we, i.e. Tytn II owners, have paid big bucks for a device we were told would do a lot of things. It does them, but many of them very poorly as a direct product of the lack of video hardware support. It HAS a camera, but it's barely useable. It CAN play video, but only very low quality video. It HAS a fold out keyboard, but I have to wait 5 seconds when I open it for the device to calm down from switching screen orientation. It HAS a wide range of connectivity and communications abilities, but I have to soft reset the device three times a day when multitasking. You don't buy a 1080p TV expecting it to take 10 minutes to turn on or change inputs, and you don't buy a $700 business class PDA expecting it to cost you more time than it saves. When you pay this much money for a product, it's reasonable to expect above-par treatment from the producer - it's paying for a room at the Ritz and getting a nice room with Budget Inn service.
This is exactly the reason why so many business environments have avoided Windows Mobile in favor of Blackberry. Blackberry works; Windows Mobile... meh. The devices may have more potential, but they're very much a gamble, something some people just can't afford when it comes to the tools they use to make their livings.
Vic @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:22AM
Our company was looking at replacing our current devices with ATT Tilt, we are now working toward another device.
thanks to engadget for getting this story across us.
Nuocmam @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:40AM
HTC did the same thing with the HTC Mogul (also known as PPC6800) and the GPS feature. The phone has a GPS built-in, but they released the phone with GPS disabled. Now supposedly, they are coming with a new ROM to enable it.
When they developed the phone, it costs them to include the GPS. I'm sure they have passed that cost to their customers in terms of pricing the phone. And to have the feature disabled is just unethical and might be even illegal.
DonatoM3 @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:46AM
The Mogul uses the chipset that's involved in this whole debacle. The chipset has GPS built in just like video rendering. There is supposed to be an update to the Mogul on January 28th that's supposed to include the AGPS and EVDO Rev A updates.
And I wished these websites would stop talking about "video playback". We want our menus and even Internet explorer to render at regular speeds not at a snails pace.
boe @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:49AM
Unfortunately - chances are we'll never fully be able to use that GPS since it isn't a full GPS chip - yes there is a lot of debate over what an AGPS and a GPS chip is - in the end that chip requires an active phone call for triangulation. I believe it is the carriers who don't want them to put in SIRFIII chips or other full GPS chips - Sprint and Verizon want to sell you telenav monthly service. ETEN and IMATE make phones with full GPS chips on board but they don't make any CDMA versions yet. Hopefully when the carriers unlock their network they'll also have limited control over GPS and other things.
Hell, how long did Verizon make you pay to download ringers from them even though many of their phones supported direct ringer mods?
Khris @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:40AM
@ Chris
Awww.....I've got you resorting to name calling now, and ironically you're the one calling me immature. LOL
Dave @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:47AM
you're just a troll, and you don't own any of the affected phones, so please just stay out of this. No one wants to hear you talk.
Khris @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:58AM
@ Dave
I feel the same way about you princess!
DonatoM3 @ Jan 23rd 2008 12:03PM
Btw Khris,
This is from HTC's own press release in September of 07
http://www.htc.com/press_room/03-press-070905.htm
"HTC will have launched more than 10 devices based on these two dual-core solutions from the Company’s MSM7xxx-series platform. Some of the devices already available include the Mogul by HTC, HTC 6800, HTC 5800 and HTC TyTN II."
"The MSM7xxx-series chipsets from Qualcomm are the industry's first to integrate two distinct processors – each dedicated to modem and multimedia functions – to provide support for third-party operating systems, including Windows Mobile. The MSM7500 for CDMA2000® 1xEV-DO Rev. A and MSM7200 for HSPA also feature rich multimedia capabilities – such as VGA video encode/decode, 8 megapixel camera, and 3D graphics – as well as advanced data functionality with unsurpassed levels of integration. The MSM7xxx-series of Qualcomm chipsets are designed to expand the reach of compelling, connected Smartphone devices into mainstream consumer markets."
Yes HTC is running with the whole "this isn't a multimedia device" and we know that. But it is a business device and last time I checked business users did use Internet explorer (which has horrible render issues) and they did open up their start menus and scroll large documents (again this phone takes alot of time to display those on screen). The hardware is there to handle all of these with ease but the phone doesn't have the software to do it.
If you want to see what I'm talking about go into your PC's device manager go to your video card and switch the driver to the default "VGA Device" driver. You will see how horribly your PC performs at just opening the start menu and even scrolling a web page.