Microsoft VP: "I personally got burnt" by Vista Capable stickers

Those "Vista Capable" stickers certainly caused consumers a lot of confusion, and it looks like they even tripped up some senior Microsoft execs. According to internal MS emails introduced as evidence in the ongoing lawsuit over the program, several MS managers expressed concern that they were misleading people, with the VP of Windows product management saying "I PERSONALLY got burnt... I now have a $2,100 email machine" and Jim Allchin saying MS had "really botched" the program, and that it "had to do a better job with our customers." Of course, the main reason for all the confusion is the multiple editions of Vista that run with different capabilities depending on your hardware, but that's a subtle point to make with a sticker -- or, as one Microsoft employee admitted in an email, "Even a piece of junk will qualify" as Vista Capable. That's some pretty damning stuff, but the case isn't anywhere near resolution yet -- the judge has yet to decide whether to certify it as a class action, which looks like it'll depend on a technical reading of what exactly Microsoft was advertising throughout the Vista Capable program. We'll know in 10 days, when the judge has said she'll issue a ruling -- we'd imagine the plaintiffs' legal team has plenty more of these emails in store if the case goes through.

[Via Slashdot]

Disclaimer: There once was a man named Nilay / Who was indeed an attorn-eye / He wrote this post, but he's not the lawyer of most / And this post is not legal advice or analysis and should not be taken as such.

[James Scott @ Feb 12th 2008 4:08PM]

The disclaimer is awesome now.

Lots of machines were "Vista Copable" but that doesnt mean it's going to run it well. That always kindof annoyed me.

[Ryan Trevisol @ Feb 12th 2008 5:32PM]

There was research done around the time of the release that said that hundreds of years from now, archeologists would dig through our garbage dumps and find a "Windows Vista Layer" of incompatible video cards, cpus, and monitors (this was still when we were worried MS would downscale and reupscale hd content for non-secure, non-hdmi displays).

[applefreak @ Feb 12th 2008 6:05PM]

best post ever

[Keith @ Feb 12th 2008 6:21PM]

I personally thought the VP got his skin burnt from a metallic type of sticker. This story is not as ammusing now.

[KnightRider @ Feb 12th 2008 4:09PM]

I am glad they are accepting it atleast.

[Don @ Feb 12th 2008 5:07PM]

One Product Marketing employee is hardly "accepting it." Just because they work for Microsoft does not mean that they are any more computer literate as some of the fools who work for just about every company. The Product Marketing employees where I work only know what's on paper, they couldn't use our software for the life of them. Don't assume one disgruntled employee speaks for the whole company.

[Andir3.0 @ Feb 12th 2008 4:09PM]

Here they come, the Vista is crap stories... and the Vista is stable stories... hold on.

[SIC TR4NSIT @ Feb 12th 2008 4:21PM]

Hey Andir3.0... I found your website buddy

http://www.ilovemymacthesong.com/

The "What people say" section is the part that makes me proud of you.. Your really changing lives Andir3.0.

[Andir3.0 @ Feb 12th 2008 4:26PM]

Thanks, but I don't own a Mac. Good try though. ;)

[insertAlias @ Feb 12th 2008 4:47PM]

No, if I recall, you're a Linux fan, right?

You have a good point. Every Vista story I read has people saying how bad their/their friend's experience with Vista on their brand new top of the line hardware was. Immediately after comes people saying how stable their Vista machine is on their old hardware...blah blah, same story, different people. The truth is somewhere in between.

[Andir3.0 @ Feb 12th 2008 5:14PM]

I am an open source fan. Be it Linux, Haiku (which was just mentioned), or whatever.

[fahnboi @ Feb 12th 2008 6:14PM]

wow sick-o is at his mac flame baiting here too (and irrelevantly at that)? amazing the insecurity of fanboyz. i wonder if they're born with low IQ or their ideology-enforced ignorance causes them to totally not comprehend others' posts.

[Jack @ Feb 13th 2008 5:16AM]

nah, he is just telling like it is:
1)engadget post vista story
2)flame wars commence
3)????
4)PROFIT!

[Kiwi616 @ Feb 12th 2008 4:09PM]

Pencil in on all stickers:

Vista Capable..."if you spend more $$$"

[ethana2 @ Feb 12th 2008 11:02PM]

I'll bet it'd run compiz with the vista theme and effects much more smoothly than actual aero. You can knock us all you want, but even when we /do/ do the same thing, we do it better.

[insertAlias @ Feb 12th 2008 4:11PM]

I liked your "snappy dresser" disclaimer better, Nilay.

[Seoultrain @ Feb 12th 2008 4:12PM]

yeah, it sucks when people who know nothing about computers walk into a store and have to rely on stickers, flipsheets, and clueless salespeople. It's like people who buy Chryslers.

I hate having to pretend that someone made a great purchase because I'm too nice to tell them they got ripped off.

too much money is made from big companies taking advantage of consumer carelessness.

[mr. mario @ Feb 12th 2008 5:11PM]

dude,
what's w the cheapshot at Chrysler? THEY didn't lose $37B last year.

There are worse car companies, like Ford.

Ho.

lol

[Seoultrain @ Feb 12th 2008 5:20PM]

haha, yeah, that was a cheap shot. But it's pretty deserved.

Ford makes plenty of great cars. It's just that none of them are sold in America. It's only a matter of time (and desperation) before they get their crap in order and bring us the gems from Europe.

GM may be in the most financial trouble, but their products are greatly improving. It is evident that they're serious about rebuilding. Losses from financial restructuring can only be expected for such a big company.

Meanwhile, Chrysler is getting the old nip/tuck from their faceless owner in order to be sold off again to the highest bidder. While it isn't hopeless yet, the death of the Viper spells the beginning of the end for them.

Always great to talk about cars on engadget.

[Dahk @ Feb 12th 2008 7:48PM]

Eh, although Ford is apparently realizing their fault in their American lines. So by 2010, they're supposedly globally launching an even newer Focus... or something like that. I skimmed over that article quite fast, so I'm kinda unsure.

But I take it to mean, they're bringing the Euro version of the Focus over here =P.

[Luke @ Feb 12th 2008 4:13PM]

I'm confused... what's the issue here?

Didn't that internal email support Microsoft's claim, and not the opposite? The fact that a "piece of junk" can run Vista Basic is evidence that all these "Vista Capable" machines were indeed Vista Capable. Just because OEM's ignore Microsoft's recomended 1g of ram doesn't make Microsoft out to be the baddie here.

I remember when OS 10.2 Powerbooks were shipping with 256MB of Ram, that was EVEN WORSE than Vista on 512. But nobody complained or sued Apple then.

The double standard on this blog is really starting to annoy me. And for the record, I own Apple Computers as well.

[Seoultrain @ Feb 12th 2008 4:16PM]

that's mostly because no one in their right mind bought a mac pre-Intel.

[looseinthedeuce @ Feb 12th 2008 4:36PM]

I agree. Computers aren't the only things sold as "capable". Remember HD-Ready TVs? They can't do everything you want, but they are "capable" to a degree, of which is certainly debatable.

It's the slightly informed customers that lose in the end. We buy a product thinking we'll be able to do all the fancy stuff we read about, but we didn't quite have ALL the info, and the sales person had even less.

Blame the sales people that don't know what they're selling. I hate to put blame on the consumers because it's like pulling teeth trying to find information on new technology, even when you scour the interwebs.

Can we all agree to pay more for products at Best Buy so they can afford to train their employees? We could at least start buying their extended service contracts...no?

[bondsbw @ Feb 12th 2008 4:39PM]

I've always heard that newer versions of OS X run faster than older versions on the same hardware. I can't really tell with Leopard (from Tiger), but it's not any slower at least.

[telepheedian @ Feb 12th 2008 5:20PM]

@bondsbw: I personally think its more of a cumulative effect. Actually, I bet that 10.1 would run fastest on that machine, but that was released when XP was, Apple just has smaller, more frequent updates. Also, comparing Leopard to Tiger is like comparing XP SP2 to the original XP, it has a bunch of enhancements, but itls mostly a service release.

[Matt @ Feb 12th 2008 5:25PM]

You misunderstood the semantics of it. The employee was saying that even a piece of junk could get Vista Capable certification. It's just like WHQL certification, it has nothing to do with the quality of the product and everything to do with willingness to pay certification fees to Microsoft.

[adrian @ Feb 12th 2008 4:13PM]

Microsoft should get burned. One version of Vista, is all they needed, and be truthful on the equipment needed to run it.

[System48 @ Feb 12th 2008 4:16PM]

I don't think they really have anything, the PC's with the stick do in fact run Vista just not with all the eye candy. The current labeling program is "Vista Basic" and "Vista Premium", this was already in place before Vista launched and while PC's were being labeled as "Vista capable". Whatever a customer inferred from that sticker is their own fault. All Microsoft could be held accountable for is if a PC labeled as Vista capable wouldn't even run Vista at all.

[John @ Feb 12th 2008 4:19PM]

can we get a haiku for the next disclaimer?

[BeforeISleep.net @ Feb 12th 2008 5:15PM]

This post is neither /
advice nor analysis /
I'm not your lawyer

[PhilxBefore @ Feb 12th 2008 5:46PM]

Haikus are easy
but sometimes they don’t make sense
Refrigerator

[Neebs @ Feb 12th 2008 6:16PM]

I wrote a haiku
But it is not very good
So I won't share it

[carl @ Feb 12th 2008 8:57PM]

PhilxBefore is great
BeforeSleep.net was best
Neebs is in last place.

[kryptonian00 @ Feb 12th 2008 4:21PM]

so it sounds like Microsoft is now responsible for the hardware?! is that so? they say what hardware you need to run vista and the hardware company sell you crap, and now it's Microsofts fault?? why can't microsoft be even bigger pigs and make there own hardware, raise the price of a pc by $500 and make sure only cool who like buying overpriced stuff get them???

[John @ Feb 12th 2008 4:27PM]

No, the problem was that they have those "Vista Capable" stickers that are supposed to tell consumers that the computer they buy is capable of running Vista. They aren't "responsible" for other people's hardware, but they are responsible for promises that they make about other people's hardware.

[Andir3.0 @ Feb 12th 2008 4:28PM]

Microsoft's label program send out the specs that hardware must meet to be labeled as such. The hardware manufacturers only have to meet those minimum specs to place the label. So, in a way, it's Microsoft's fault for setting the hardware certification bar so low.

[pball_inuyasha @ Feb 12th 2008 7:35PM]

i think the problem is the hardware side took advantage of the loose requirements so they slapped labels on anything that you could install and "run" vista on.

[Zeus.:God @ Feb 12th 2008 4:52PM]

That doesn't mean that it's Microsoft's fault. Now, if they are allowing them to apply this sticker to machines that are below minimum requirements or just barely meet them, then yeah, that's a problem, but don't you think that the hardware manufacturers should take responsibility for their products and actually make them capable of doing what's advertised?

Maybe Microsoft is guilty, but the hardware manufacturers are just as.

[Seoultrain @ Feb 12th 2008 5:59PM]

It's not the manufacturers coming up short, it's Microsoft. Their software was more power-hungry than they let on, and the consumers are the ones who get the ish end of the stick.

Keep in mind this was even before Vista got released. Microsoft released the minimum specs for Vista, and also decided that "Vista Capable" meant a machine was capable of running Vista Home Basic. Why even release such a deceiving classification?

[nxtiak @ Feb 12th 2008 4:33PM]

I'd like to know what $2100 PC he bought that couldn't run Vista Ultimate. Seriously, is he an idiot?

[Seoultrain @ Feb 12th 2008 4:34PM]

I would guess an ultraportable that had integrated video.

[Ignatius @ Feb 12th 2008 8:55PM]

How does $2,100 become an email machine?

Toss me that thing and I'll make use of it, ya retard!

[a ham sandwich @ Feb 12th 2008 4:36PM]

Best. Poem. Ever. :)

[sinjinn @ Feb 12th 2008 4:36PM]

ive never tried vista but i have a 900 mhz celeron umpc which is "vista capable" , which would lead me to beleive that almost any pc made in the last 5 years is also "vista capable"

i dont know whats so good about vista anyway . its like trading in a fast car which runs great for a slower one that just looks great.

[jeremy @ Feb 12th 2008 4:36PM]

is it just me or does it show a super level of incompetency when the VP of Microsoft says he bought a computer that wasn't able to run his own software. does the guy not know how to look at the damn specs??

[Matt @ Feb 12th 2008 9:35PM]

I thought the same thing! I'd be pretty pissed if I had to work for this idiot.

[DWells55 @ Feb 12th 2008 6:04PM]

No kidding. Especially the "I now have a $2,100 email machine" quote. So what he's saying is that XP (assuming the system was loaded with XP by default and his problems are from his own Vista install) is incapable of doing anything but email? What a ridiculous claim. I have an old Pentium II at home with XP Pro that still functions perfectly - it can handle IMing, email, video playback, DVDs, iTunes and iPod syncing, pretty much everything the average user wants to do. And it does it fairly well.

Saying that your $2,100 PC is now an "email machine" both discredits the capabilities of XP while furthering the belief that Vista requires absolutely premium hardware. What an absolutely foolish thing to say, especially for someone employed by Microsoft.

[Joe @ Feb 13th 2008 11:11AM]

If he got a system for $2100 that couldn't run Vista, he's a moron who shouldn't be a VP of anything, let alone Microsoft. Speaking of which, I have $30,000 Honda Civic he may be interested in.

[Stephen Lang @ Feb 28th 2008 4:22PM]

"Saying that your $2,100 PC is now an "email machine" both discredits the capabilities of XP while furthering the belief that Vista requires absolutely premium hardware. What an absolutely foolish thing to say, especially for someone employed by Microsoft."

No, it's straight talk from someone trying to keep the conversation grounded in reality. Remember it's an internal email. If not for employees like him that are trying to stay objective, who knows what else they might have slapped that sticker on.

[Aaron @ Feb 12th 2008 4:44PM]

This is the same fore peripherals as well. I recently bought a webcam that has that sticker and upon hooking it up and it not working I went to there website and only the later versions are vista capable.