http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/ Engadget Comments for New 3D software tracks peoples' location in buildings http://www.engadget.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.engadget.com en-us Copyright 2012 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 4:02PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/and in other note
doesnt bill gates have this in his crib ?
thats pretty cool
:)]]>Feb 6th 2009 4:09PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 4:17PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 4:04PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 4:05PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/-Taylor]]>Feb 6th 2009 7:40PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 4:20PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Yeah firefighters, right.., I think it's the 'others' that like it most and that we should worry about.
]]>Feb 6th 2009 4:11PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 4:17PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 6:06PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 4:19PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 7:13PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 4:21PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 4:26PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 4:26PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 4:27PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 5:00PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 4:39PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 4:39PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Firefighter: I don't know my phone melted!]]>Feb 6th 2009 5:00PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/
"I'll find you!!"
-Random Samurai from Tenchu game]]>Feb 6th 2009 5:02PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/
I can easily imagine the same happening with interior of the buildings.]]>Feb 6th 2009 5:09PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 5:16PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 5:39PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 7th 2009 11:53PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 5:41PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/
then there have ones that can smell, put that together]]>Feb 6th 2009 5:49PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/
TadQuaint.com]]>Feb 6th 2009 5:56PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/
The gizmo has to be
-easy to use with thick cumbersome heavy gloves
-very few buttons, large buttons
-be tough...like crush, fire proof (have a class 3 thermal rating just like the radios). I've been in training fires that melted my helmet.
-not distract the user from normal fire fighting operations, the minute you forget where you are, it can go down hill quick
-weigh nothing. fire gear can get up to 100lbs quick especially if you throw in the air pack and tools.
-cant be a crutch. as soon as fire fighters start to rely on this instead of their hard skills they'll be screwed when this thing slags along with their radio

The software
-has to be able to compensate for the changing geometry of the buildings interior. Fires will warp, destroy, remove, and collapse everything. What good is a map when it no longer matches the environment?
-cheap
-be usable on different types of devices so that departments have spending and complexity options
-be able to transmit the fire fighters position back to the incident commander on scene.

This is a great idea, I love it! I want to see this as a usable product immediately. ]]>Feb 6th 2009 5:58PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Great comments. Do you know if any portable electronic devices exist which could match your criteria? Even if they don't do locating, it would be nice to see if someone has tackled those problems already. The ruggedization problem will be a big development hurdle, especially for a startup company.

What concerns me with this technology is the vagueness of the "3D sensor of some sort". The software will be useless without it, and existing real-time locating systems (RTLS) are generally too slow to track a moving firefighter. Plus, they all rely on some kind of existing infrastructure, which will either be without power or in the process of melting. GPS would be nice, but it's untrustworthy indoors, and may also be too slow.

Wouldn't the infrastructure have to arrive with the firefighters, i.e. on their trucks? ]]>Feb 6th 2009 6:22PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/
I have not run across any devices yet besides the PASS devices and radios fire fighters already carry. Those devices come with thermal ratings, X number of minutes at Y number of degrees before failure. They could probably talk to the companies that make the plastic cases for those devises. Making stuff fire fighter proof is tough… hell we’re hard on ourselves. The closest thing I’ve run across personally are the thermal cameras but those are used after the fire looking for hot spots.

I have definitely not seen any “3D” sensors that would hold up to the heat. If such a sensor does exist it would have to be back pack mounted. As for taking the infrastructure with them, that’s a really good idea! If there was a directional antenna on the truck that could constantly sweep the building looking for return pings and comparing them to a map then returning that data, it might work.

Where this would really come in handy with is locating other downed fire fighters, like the blip function on the Helio phones. Maybe if the devices got close they could shake hands and tell the wearer who they were close to. This is a tough nut to crack but it’s a step in the right direction.

I am no gizmo or mapping expert by any means, but I have lost more than one phone to a fire cause I left it in an outside pocket. I really really want to see this come to market.


]]>Feb 6th 2009 6:41PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 6:18PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 6:40PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 7:40PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 8:14PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 6th 2009 8:25PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/
Right??]]>Feb 7th 2009 2:07AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iha.dk%2FSystem-til-overv%25C3%25A5gning-af-brandm%25C3%25A6nd-5602.aspx%3FPrinterfriendly%3D3&sl=da&tl=en (I had to use the printable version for google translator to catch it).]]>Feb 7th 2009 3:13AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 7th 2009 2:12PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/I don't ever want to see that pose unless there are 2 hot Asian chicks doing the posing.]]>Feb 8th 2009 8:47AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 8th 2009 8:51AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 8th 2009 9:34PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Feb 9th 2009 5:16AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/Tell me if I'm wrong, but you'd like 3-D localization data married to a personnel accountability system like this one:
http://www.vernonsoft.com/index.html

This looks to be just software, and requires a lot of data entry, but I can imagine adding the mapping function to this and making it much more powerful. Modifying the PASS devices or exiting radios would be the way to add the 3-D positioning, in my view. At the command end, you can have the pretty maps running on hardware that doesn't have to be fireproof, as long as you can communicate with the folks inside the burning buildings.

I'm working on a radio-locating technology that could do the trick, but I need to convince someone to spend some money on building a prototype for firefighting applications. As a fire fighter, which companies would you approach to get something into the market place? Which companies have the best reputation? ]]>Feb 9th 2009 12:08PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/
Going through the PASS device seems like the way to go to me. But PASS are becoming more and more an integral piece of the SCBA (air packs). Scott and Survivair are the two brands I am familiar with. The latest models I used had a tiny LED HUD in the “nose” of the mask just above the regulator that told me where my air supply was. I think that you may have to go through either the SCBA or radio companies to fire proof the box. Motorola and Bendix King are the once used most.

One thing I forgot to mention is the display. Some times we have to take off the packs and push them ahead of us to squeeze through holes that aren’t much bigger than the helmets so the display can’t be bulky. A wrist display might work since a lot of crawling is done. It would need to have a sacrificial face plate though and be pretty thin. Hope this helps some
]]>Feb 9th 2009 5:31PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/
Firstly i would like to note that i am the person on the left in the picture.

Having said that, i am happy to see the debate and the usefull comments here.

About the article, it was written as a press release from the Engineering Collage of Aarhus (www.IHA.dk) and was never intented for a technical forum such as this.
This is the reason why some of the issues are refered to as "the little green box" etc.

There are quite a few issues on which you have all commented that i would like to address.

- "This has been done many times before"
To my knowledge no. There exists a lot of systems that provide indoor positioning, this is true, but they all rely on a infrastructure in the building in which monitoring is needed.
http://www.sonitor.com/ and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fLJWDnv7rI are examples of such systems.

- "What is this green box"
The positioning module that the program is to make use of is a Dead Reckoning Module (DRM)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_reckoning
A product that can fullfill this assignment exists and the prospects are good.
Coubling a set of relative coordinates with some apriori knowledge of the building a precise position should be attainable.

- "3d maps"
This project bases its 3d models in a format called Industry Foundation Classes (IFC).
IFC is a widely supported standard that most architect CAD tools support and as such attaining the building information is more of a bureaucratic issue than of of technical difficulty.


As a small disclaimer (also regarding the picture :) ).
This article was intented to draw focus to IHA and the educations provided by IHA.

The project was carried out as the final part of a Bachelor og Engineering in IT in cooperation with Systematic (www.Systematic.com).

@Polymath: i was particularly fond of your reply as the items of interest you mention where some of the main focus points in the project.
The navigation and use of the program was made with a "busy glove wearing firefighter" in mind. The navigation is simple and straigtforward. Furthermore the program does not demand focus but rather acts as a passive source of information, ready when needed.

As a final note, a lot of the indoor positioning systems developed are developed for a PC platform. Not only is this project the only i have seen that does not require a "rigged" building but it is also the only system i have come across that is able to present 3d building models on a handheld.

Kind regards Malik Hejle.

ps: i hope this little rant cleared out a few of the questions that where asked here.



]]>Feb 16th 2009 7:18AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/06/new-3d-software-tracks-peoples-location-in-buildings/May 19th 2009 8:01AM