http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/ Engadget Comments for http://www.engadget.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.engadget.com en-us Copyright 2012 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 2:43PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 2:56PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 2:59PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 2:59PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
There's nothing wrong with that. I don't understand why everyone tries to argue this point. If someone wants to keep using Windows 95, there's literally nothing wrong with that.]]>Feb 16th 2009 3:00PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
BeOS failed because they couldn't stand up to MS and win as well as the fact that people didn't want to change

IMO it is one of the coolest OSs ever... easy to use perhaps more so than Windows and boots completely so fast even at 300mhz i could boot 3 times before Vista gets the desktop usable

Too bad Be Inc didn't make it... we do have Haiku R1 (BeOS's ideological successor open source like Linux) to look froward to soonish though and hopefully Haiku R2 will nock the socks of the competition]]>Feb 16th 2009 3:05PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 3:05PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 3:14PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
The system would likely come with Vista Home Basic. To upgrade to Vista Business it would cost ~$60. Windows XP Professional is the "equivalent" to Vista Business, not to Vista Home Basic. MS was still selling XP legally, and maintained its MSRP. The customer chose of her own free will to purchase the equivalent of Vista Business to be installed on the product purchased. The choice was not forced upon her.

This will be thrown out of court for being a non issue]]>Feb 16th 2009 3:19PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 3:21PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
You gain control of a market, you get the power, the money, and the oversight of the courts... maybe the last. Reagan, Bush and Bush packed those courts TIGHT with Federalist Society judges, and their party blocked Clinton utterly from appointing any of more, um, open-minded judges during his eight years, ie open minded to following monopoly laws. So it's up to the luck of the draw, and the luck is skewed Republican.

But the law is clear about monopoly abuse. What is not clear is whether the packed courts, all the way up to the Supreme Court, will follow the laws. ]]>Feb 18th 2009 6:35PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 3:24PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
MS isn't charging the fee, the manufacturer is. It is a cost of labor + increased support costs.
]]>Feb 16th 2009 3:37PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
MS isn't charging the fee, the manufacturer is. It is a cost of labor + increased support costs."

That depends on how the OEM reseller license is worded. If Microsoft offers the OEM the ability to sell any license of Windows with the PC then sure, it's the OEM. However, if the customer is forced to buy a Vista license that they didn't want just to get the PC then they have to pay on top of that to get XP, then MS is to blame.]]>Feb 16th 2009 3:44PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 3:46PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 4:01PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
How is that reasonable? They don't have to support XP. They've extended the support themselves. People/Consumers should have a choice no matter what that choice is. Forcing an upgrade by charging more for the customer's preferred system is abuse of market power. It's not up to the company to decide what the consumer wants. If there are still XP licenses available, people should not be charged more for them.

There is a unique problem that comes up because this is digital media. If Hasbro stopped selling the Monopoly board game, people could always buy it at a garage sale and continue playing it. Hasbro would be forced to continue making the game in order to make money. That's consumerism. Basic Supply and Demand. If people still want to use XP, they should be able to. Microsoft doesn't NEED to support it. They choose to. It's pretty obvious there are people out there that don't want Vista. The only method they have to obtain the system is illegal if Microsoft doesn't sell it to them. This is a very unique problem with digital media. Consumers (and their money) have lost power.]]>Feb 16th 2009 4:03PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
You want a custom job, you pay extra. Them's the rules.]]>Feb 16th 2009 4:21PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
1.) Physical vs Digital
2.) Both Vista and XP licenses were still available
3.) If both were still on the market, and they charged you double for the Vectra ... would you be happy with that transaction? (If you could walk into the dealer and you _really_like_ the Vectra and you went to buy it, but they said it would cost more than it's newer counterpart... would you truly be happy paying more?)]]>Feb 16th 2009 4:29PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
Yes? And?

"2.) Both Vista and XP licenses were still available"

Yup, and Lenovo chose to penalise stupid people by charging more for XP. That's their call because they don't actually have to give you a choice at all.

"3.) If both were still on the market, and they charged you double for the Vectra ... would you be happy with that transaction? (If you could walk into the dealer and you _really_like_ the Vectra and you went to buy it, but they said it would cost more than it's newer counterpart... would you truly be happy paying more?)"

No, I'd buy a used one and not whine like a little bitch. It's up to Vauxhall and their dealers what they sell. I mean I really liked the Cavalier but it's history now. Move the hell on.]]>Feb 16th 2009 4:35PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 4:53PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
If you wanted to buy XP, why should you have to pay for Vista, then pay extra for XP? That's the debate here. It's not about her getting both. She wanted XP and from the sound of it, didn't want Vista. Since the OEM is required to sell Vista with every purchase, Microsoft is essentially forcing her to buy two operating systems, when she only wants one.

How does that make sense?]]>Feb 16th 2009 5:15PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
You just argued my point. You CANNOT buy a used XP license. It's non-transferable. So you may be able to buy a used car, but you cannot buy a used OS. This is why Digital vs Physical matters (as you apparently didn't understand...)]]>Feb 16th 2009 5:18PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
I dont see her problem. If she didnt want vista in the first place then why buy a computer which comes with it? If i went out and bought something that wasnt what i wanted in the first place and had to pay more to get it the way i liked it can i go ahead and sue the manufacturer of the part i changed?

Shes an idiot, if she didnt want vista she shouldnt have bought a computer with it installed.]]>Feb 16th 2009 6:00PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
No my point was that if I'd accept that a manufacturer has a right to sell what they want and charge people who are stupid enough to want to buy an older product more money. If I want an older model then I get one from stock (and may have to pay an order and shipping fee to do it) or accept that I have to buy one second hand - just as I could buy a second hand Lenovo laptop with XP installed.

Apparently that kind of escaped you. :)

]]>Feb 16th 2009 6:02PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 6:22PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
Yeah but Paul, since when have you ever seen a car where the 4 cylinder model cost more than the V6???

]]>Feb 16th 2009 6:23PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/What? you want to charge me for old technology?!?!?! you mean I'm paying for the CD player that comes with this car??? and the 8-track??? this is nonsense!!!

if you don't want vista build a custom PC and by XP seperate... better yet try vista!!!... most people that I sell computers to hate vista but yet have never used it...]]>Feb 16th 2009 6:24PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
It's more like this, paying 35k for an 09 model while being charged 40k for an 08 model, now does that make sense???]]>Feb 16th 2009 6:30PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
Wrong analogy: the Insigna is actually a better car. Problem here is that dumb people are happy with Vista just because it's newer and don't realise/care it's actually worse than XP.]]>Feb 16th 2009 6:41PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
"if you bought Microsoft office 07, would office 03 would now be free? NO."

Oh yes you can, you fool. From http://download.microsoft.com/download/d/2/3/d23b9533-169d-4996-b198-7b9d3fe15611/downgrade_chart.doc

"Which 2007 Microsoft Office system suites are eligible to downgrade to Office 2003 suites?
Customers who have licensed Microsoft Office Professional Plus 2007 are eligible to downgrade to Office Professional Enterprise 2003 and all previous versions as described above. Customers who have licensed Microsoft Office Standard 2007 are eligible to downgrade to Office Standard Edition 2003 and all previous versions of Office Standard Edition."

It's better to shut up when you don't know what you're talking about.]]>Feb 16th 2009 7:05PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 7:16PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
Hey, why don't you just shut up?]]>Feb 16th 2009 7:31PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 8:41PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
The issue is, MS is saying you have to pay for a Vista license (or some Vista premium) in order to install XP, a completely unrelated and PRIOR product. Now, if they had competitors this would not be a problem, as even one competitor would undercut them and drive their XP sales to zero (which they might claim they wouldn't mind). However, because they are a monopoly (can anyone else sell you XP?), they can get away with charging exorbitant prices unless courts intervene.]]>Feb 16th 2009 10:46PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
"It's more like this, paying 35k for an 09 model while being charged 40k for an 08 model, now does that make sense???"

Rather, it's more like paying 35k for an 09 model while being charged 40k for an 88 model.

Vintage models that aren't produced anymore do cost more. However, just as vintage cars are still "supported", so is XP. Nobody is forced to buy a new car every year as new models are produced; but with every year comes the discontinuation of the old. I can still drive my '88 Corolla -- it's still "supported" by repair shops and the like, but in no way is Toyota forced to reproduce it. XP is still supported by Microsoft (for now, at least), but in no way should they be forced to keep producing it.

People aren't forced to change. Even if Microsoft eventually stops producing XP, it will still be widely available. That's the big difference between cars and Windows XP, as many people have been stating. But many people, I would suspect, aren't thinking about the car as if it were a computer. Just as you eventually have to replace or upgrade old parts in a car, so do you have to at least upgrade the internals of your computer if you want it to run newer software. I remember when I tried to upgrade my computer that had Windows 98 to XP (Note that I hadn't upgraded to Windows 2000 between then). I had originally bought this computer with Windows 95 installed. Well, by XP I had had enough. But I'm getting too far into this. The point is, you can't expect a computer from 2001 or before, to be able to run a new operating system, six or seven or eight years later, very well.

Regarding the "extra charge" for XP, I think RoboDan explains it very well above: "The system would likely come with Vista Home Basic. To upgrade to Vista Business it would cost ~$60. Windows XP Professional is the "equivalent" to Vista Business, not to Vista Home Basic. MS was still selling XP legally, and maintained its MSRP. The customer chose of her own free will to purchase the equivalent of Vista Business to be installed on the product purchased. The choice was not forced upon her."

This is verified by going onto Lenovo's site and customizing a computer. The downgrade to XP Professional is the same price as Vista Business. Lenovo even says that you're buying "Genuine Windows Vista Business with Windows XP Professional Downgrade." Even if you don't want Vista, you still have to buy the operating system.]]>Feb 22nd 2009 11:15PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
This is flat out wrong.

She chose to buy a computer from a company that bundles Vista with that system. She knew when she purchased that this was so. She could just as easily have bought a computer from a different company that does not bundle Vista.

Just because there is demand for an operating system that is approaching 8 years old does not mean Microsoft has an obligation to continue selling it. There are many alternatives to Windows.]]>Feb 17th 2009 12:32AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
Who else can sell you XP besides Microsoft? Well let's see...
http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=368

Newegg can!

Of course that doesn't have anything to do with being a monopoly, but you're wrong just the same. As for there being no competitors, you're wrong about that too.]]>Feb 17th 2009 12:43AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
Actually, Microsoft ISN'T saying that. Lenovo is. And it wasn't really a downgrade, despite how much this consumer (and those supporting /profiting off her) would like everyone to believe. She went from Vista Basic to XP Professional. That's an upgrade. XP Professional has many services that XP Home does not - not the least of which is the domain services, which costs money. Period. She does not have two Vista license keys, and she did NOT pay the full retail price of XP Pro (Somewhere between $200 and $400). She paid the difference that Lenovo charged between their OEM fee for Vista Basic - which MS had discounted to encourage sales, and XP Pro, which they had no need to discount.

She did not have to install, or purchase, a Vista license. There was no Vista license on the bottom of her laptop (or if there was, it wasn't required by MS to be there). And despite what you may think, it is MUCH cheaper to buy a new, failing product than an established, respected one.

What it comes down to is that she, like many MS customers, has a poor understanding of the difference between XP Home, XP Pro, and the myriad of Vista versions. She didn't NEED XP Pro, it just sounded better (or was all Lenovo offered) and so she got that. And there is no law that requires new products to be more expensive than older ones. That's how you establish a new product - discounts to help it get into customers hands so they'll actually use it, because it's better for you (and them) in the long run. ]]>Feb 17th 2009 5:16PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 2:43PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 2:43PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
*yawn*]]>Feb 16th 2009 10:29PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
Microsoft wants to move past XP because of vunerabilities. The more vunerabilities out there, the more MS has to work at getting rid of them.


]]>Feb 16th 2009 2:46PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 2:51PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/
why is our health care so expensive? malpractice insurance. people, the money has to come from somewhere, and i guarantee you the CEO's not taking a pay cut. people who sue large corporations end up punishing all the other legitimate customers out there. quit looking for that perfect opportunity to sue and get rich off the rest of america's rising prices for goods and services.]]>Feb 16th 2009 3:09PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 2:45PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 2:59PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 2:45PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 3:23PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/microsoft-gets-sued-over-windows-xp-downgrade-fees/Feb 16th 2009 5:43PM