It's hard to say at this point whether we should point the blame at NVIDIA, Apple or right in between the two corporate campuses, but it seems that an uncomfortable amount of
17-inch MacBook Pro owners are having some serious issues with their GeForce
9600M graphics card. For those unaware, there is actually a
9400M in there too, but word on the street has it that the random green lines and nasty artifacts are only showing up when the more potent card is kicked into action. Most folks are saying that a reboot solves the problem momentarily, but eventually it returns to bother, annoy and sadden new owners. Anyone else out there pulling their hair out over this? Here's hoping a firmware update is all that'll be needed to bring closure to yet another
NVIDIA-Apple related fiasco.
[Thanks to everyone who sent this in]
Update: We just got word from an NVIDIA spokesperson, who had this to say: "Our understanding is that Apple is investigating this, and if they need our help we will certainly support them. But right now it's unclear what the issue is, so jumping to conclusions at this point is premature." We'll keep you posted!
posted Mar 5th 2009 9:48PM
Why are we shelling out $$ to be the guinea pigs?
Thank god it wasn't a Windows PC having that problem, otherwise it would've been Windows' fault not Nvidia's!
No, if it was a Windows PC no one would care.
What next? Macs catching fire??
Blasphemy I say! Apples are perfect!
All the problems I've had with my Ubuntu Dell have been the result of nVidia's crappy manufacturing.
Combined with Dell's crappy support, it's a horrible synergy.
I have furniture made out of repair return postal boxes. These four over here I have my whiteboard on, like a planning table of sorts..
Well, if it were a windows PC it would have cost, what, a thousand dollars less?
It's hard to point a finger at this point in my opinion.
It could be NVIDIA's fault for releasing a chip to early or it could be Apple's fault for pushing NVIDIA to mass produce a chip before it's really ready. Or a combo of the both.
I am just sick of this. It's not like this is the first laptop Apple's produced. Just do it right the first time. Not all press is good press....
Only people new to the whole apple ecosystem are crazy enough to buy into the first batches of _ANY_ of their new products.
This is almost not news, considering how notorious they are for doing things like these.
Sucks though, it looks like memory corruption or some kind of display signaling problem. That thing is integrated too, sucks to replace it...
@Shenanigans
"i" dont want to hear any more of your Shenanigans...
A- AHAHAHA!
@iGoon
Turn off your text to speech app and you don't have to hear me anymore.
I've been an Apple fan for awhile and an owner/ user for two years. I am tired of the pricing, lack of speedy updates, and issues. OS X is superior for my use but I can't justify buying the hardware anymore.
Wait till you spend your hard earned money ($3,000) on something that starts going bad within the first week of use.
@Shenanigans sounds alot like the vista/intel fiasco no?
@Shenanigans: I think it's pretty easy to say that Apple should have ensured that the NVidia components they selected actually worked before shipping. This is unforgivable on a laptop that costs so much more than the equivalent from the competition.
This seems to be typical of the poor quality of Apple products in general - it's difficult to point to a single Apple product that doesn't have serious problems like this. The latest Cinema Displays have similar graphical issues and then there's the melting power adapters, mooing fans, discolouring cases, dodgy RAM, hit-and-miss trackpads, cracking iPhone cases, crap iPod headphones, expanding batteries, cracking hinges, overheating Macbooks, etc., etc. God only knows why anyone would pay a premium for such poor product design and you really have to wonder why sites like Engadget continue to push Apple's products when they are so badly made. Apple users are always banging on about how great Apple's customer service is and how happy Genius Bar staff are to replace faulty products but you have to ask why people are spending so much time returning their stuff in the first place.
And in case you want some proof that Apple produce the least reliable laptops:
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Squaretrade-888128.html
Here Apple find out why increasing sales so your market includes the general public as well as fanboys is both a good and a bad thing - on one hand you make more money, on the other hand your customers are much less inclined to forgive you when you balls up.
It is very clear; If you buy an Apple you deserve what you get, get that extended warranty and that season bus pass, coz you are goona need to visit that genius bar, a lot.
@kccboy2004
Are you serious? That's an incredibly horrible thing I say. Only bad people deserve bad things to happen to them. Choosing Apple over Dell doesn't make anyone a bad person.
Jesus, fanboys, go die in a fire. It's not a Mac OS X or a Windows issue:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/02/nvidia-says-significant-quantities-of-laptop-gpus-are-defectiv/
Uh, Dale, your article is from over six months ago and refers to the previous generation of laptop GPUs at that time not the 9600s.
Although you are correct that fanboys should have combustible accidents.
Maybe its trying to kill itself because it knows it will never get to play a game.
(sorry had to do it)
that argument has been invalid for like 3 years brah
i'l help you out, never gonna play a game before it becomes outdated and all the other platforms.
why game when you can blog about ilife and starbucks
@OziD: So are you still waiting for the first Gears of War, brah'? 'Cause that game is going on 2 years from being announced for a certain OS and not actually being released.
Yup, Monkey Island , Return to Monkey Island and Revenge of Monkey Island "ARE" over 3 years old... perhaps it was trying to play GTA 4 and had a stroke.. Ooops... GTA on a Mac? ROFL COPTER TAKES FLIGHT
Stop being lame, guys. Ever since Intels became the best CPUs, suddenly better than the the previously-most-awesome, Power-PCs, and since Apple invented the dual-boot system, and then invented the multi-button mouse, people have been happily running PC games on their Macs.
@chispito
marathon was a great game, so was starcraft. but seriously, macs cant even run steam natively. you shell out the 120% apple tax to buy a mac, then shell out another 50 to buy a copy of windows?
REALLY?
Chispito,
Inaccurate.
Macs do NOT natively run games.
Macs that you purchase a Microsoft WINDOWS license for now possess the capability to run games.
As kangbp.nyc pointed out, you guys are paying the ridiculous "Apple Tax" first of all, then shelling out at least another $100+ for a Windows license on top of that, just to play what we PC/Windows users get to play natively for hundreds upon several hundreds less and with better performance to boot.
@kangbp.nyc:
"macs cant even run steam natively"
That's because Gabe Newell's being a fucking dick about it. If he actually explained why Valve and Apple aren't cooperating rather than leaving a vague "we talk, they talk," maybe I'd be slightly more sympathetic.
And if Steam would support OSX, what would you do? Launch it and look at Steams game library of which 95% are not for OSX?
@kangbp.nyc&Hamidxa
You would do well to learn from your lesson in sarcasm so that the next time you comment you don't look so stupid.
So to recap: If this is NVIDIA's fault, they'll fix it, if this is Apple's fault, the warranty will cover it, and, even though this hardly relates to the original posting, Apple computers can run any game a regular PC can (for a price) exactly the same as said PC would be able to do. Did I miss something, or was it a total waste of my time to read all the replies to MED's comment?
The question is if it's a bad batch of cards or the laptops themselves; based on NVIDIA's history though, it seems more likely the problem is on their end.
But the 9600m, as well as quite a few other models of 9xxxm series cards are humming along quite nicely in other manufacturer's notebooks, running windows and/or linux.
Then why aren't the 15" MBPs affected? Are laptops from other manufacturers using the 9600M affected?
I'm a long-time Mac user who thinks that it's Apple's fault. I just don't see how it could be Nvidia's card when the 15" MBP's screen suffers no such effect.
This looks very similar to the problems I've had with nVidia 8400M GS on my Dell XPS M1330. They replaced the motherboard twice so far within the year. I cannot believe that such shoddy products are being released. My next computer will definitely have an ATi card.
The green lines mean it just works.
haha i left that comment on someone facebook today after she said a program wont work on her mac.
I love apple, but can't they release a computer that doesnt have graphics problems with the first models???
Anyone of you clever posters actually have the machine in question? Halfway down the posts and zero information content so far....
I have a unibody MBP 17" and it doesn't get hot at all. Even sitting on a blanket it barely gets warm. So I don't think it's heat problems.
@nikster
Have you tried turning it on again?
Artifacts generally point to an overheating issue. Faulty fan, faulty thermal paste, faulty contact between heatsink and chip, take your pick.
Faulty thermal die substrate engineering..
maybe apple needs to chill with the "thin" thing if it cant handle the cooling problem
I get very similar symptoms when I overclock my 9500GT, although the temp doesn't seem to be drastically high. If the cards in the Mac running at standard speeds then I'd also go with overheating being the cause.
I also think it probably because of overheating
But then my 7600GT had artifacts because it was just not made with possible cheap components
it could also be power issues, apple trying to engineer the thing for 8 hour battery life. The 9600 chip may be getting too much or not enough voltage.
Maybe I'll put off ordering one of these for another couple of weeks then.
Just restart it again, if it still does not work take it to the Genius Bar
imo
if the "geniuses" that built it couldn't get it right, what makes you think that the "geniuses" at the "genius bar" can figure it out?
they'll just give you a new one with the same problem. Its a genius solution.
That's what you get when you spend $5200 on a computer
Where do you get the $5200? Starts at 3k Canadian, maxes out at $5100 with 256 SSD and 8gb RAM and upgraded CPU.
What you said is equal to reading that Benzes are breaking down and saying "That's what you get when you spend $520000 on a car."
it's apple, so you gotta pay extra for that apple remote, mini-displayport to dvi adapter, applecare.... and SALES TAX, biatch!!
I was going to defend you and say maybe you meant $2500 but nevermind.
Like apple, Mercedes Benz also has terrible quality control, so for those people who are ignorant or uninformed, and buy a car based off hype without knowing what they are getting in to, they do deserve the embarrassment of a busted $52,000 car, when a $15,000 car is twice as reliable.
funny how every single time a macbook comes out they have widespread problems yet fanyboys (cough, engadget, gizmodo cough*) continue to say they are the best and recommend this crap
It is not "crap"
The laptops are really good quality and have a lot of appeal. All the issues will probably be resolved soon (remember the touchpad issues? those are gone now...) even if it means repairing or replacing parts. Unless someone was dumb enough to buy a laptop this expensive without a warranty...
All macbooks come with 1 year warranty included in the price. Everybody is covered.
er the 1yr warranty isnt apple exclusive. even if you get a $300 dell, you still get 1 yr limited warranty on parts and labor
and considering how apple is being a bitch about denying shits are their fault, (i.e, iphones overheating during charging, etc) they might cover up this for monthes
so why the hell are they releasing a product with such a significant problem to begin with? why go through the pain in the ass of having to deal with shitty customer support from Apple rather than having apple stop these problems from happening in the first place?
"All macbooks come with 1 year warranty included in the price. Everybody is covered. "
Same as every other laptop manufacture ever. Same thing with my Dell, same thing with my old Toshiba, same thing with my friend's HP. Apple is not unique
@ Sacapuntas
Yeah - they'll fix it - but everyone and their mother is still complaining about Vista when M$ has fixed the lion's share of those issues. You cut apple a break when they can't get their stuff right, but rag on windows for 2+ years due to buggy release issues? yah.... i thought so.....
And therefore, I strong believe that they should've gone with AMD. 3670 along with 3300 should do well, and ATI hasn't been fcking up their drivers/chips either.
@ PCIV
When apple moving to intel it wanted to do so to improve their line, not worsen it, although i do agree that ATi is a great product. Also, Phenuoum, I agree, why cut Apple a break for messing up almost every time, and most of the time turn their backs on the beta testers of their products, but complain that Vista is the worst product ever made, mad make it sound like its crap while Microsoft is spending a lot of R&D fixing the problems with the OS, and making such a great job making sure it doesnt happen again by making such a great beta test of Windows 7. Trust me I hear people complain about how all of the machines that I sell (I work for a computer retail chain) are crap because they run Vista.
Does AMD also have that feature where it switches between the two GPUs depending on usage? I did not know that. Good to know. Know of any laptops which currently use such a setup with AMD GPUs?
But it's got a unibody; Jesus, how can a graphics card fail when you have a unibody?
This is the exact same problem with NVIDIA chips that HP, Dell, and other laptop vendors are going through. The GPU is overheating, warping, then breaking because NVIDIA borked the design. Rather than fix it, they are continuing to sell them off to vendors with promises and assurances that they work fine. In a short while Apple will release a "fix" in the form of a BIOS update that spins the cooling fan at 100% speed, 100% of the time, in an effort to cool the GPU down and keep it from killing itself and taking the laptop with it while it's still under warranty.
Yea, my first gen M1330 XPS had that 8400M overheating issues, but because I'm a college student I did the sensible thing and used it to cook those cookies you get out of the vending machine (... soo good warm) for a year till I got my new laptop.
I personally always get 1 free product out of every purchase... warranties are fun.
there goes your ultra long battery life... more like 5 instead of 8.
maybe when they said "upto 8hours" they meant no cd, no hard drive, no screen, and certainly, no fan
Hey now, useful information has no place here.
They must be paying attention to how well the 360 is still selling.
Actually the problems with the Xbox 360 RRoD and the NVIDIA GPU fiasco are very similar, but not quite the same. The case with the NVIDIA GPUs is that over repeated on/off cycles where the GPU heats up then cools down, the bonding material between the actual chip (the core, where all the little transistors are) and the substrate it's attached to (the typically green square with all the electrical connection pins) breaks down and cracks, causing sever artifacts or a system that simply dies. In the case of the Xbox 360, over extended use the GPU gets hot enough to actually warp the motherboard and eventually breaks the electrical connections, causing the dreaded Red Ring of Death.
NVIDIA's problem is that they have a HUGE inventory of these defective chips that simply can't be fixed, and to toss them all would be financially ruinous for them. It's much better for them to sell the chips (either by outright lying to the laptop vendor, telling them the chips they have are fine, like they did with Apple), or strike a deal with the vendor to help them mitigate the repair costs of the laptops that die during the warranty period (like they did with HP and likely Dell as well).
ATI has always seemed to have good laptop cards. I haven't heard any problems with those, just the 8/9 series nVidia cards.
YES!!!
seriously, when you pay so much for a computer you would expect that apple would at least have provided more testing to prevent this.
And to all of the people blaming Nvidia, was this a known issue before the release? if so, why didn't apple hold off until a fix?
BTW, why is this not an issue in the 15"? obviously this is apple's fault if it's only in the 17"
MBA hinges, MBP GPU, what's next?
Looks like you'll just have to watch all of your po-- TAX DOCUMENTS on another part of the screen.
is the 9600m the same thing as the 9600m GT? i have the 9600m GT in my laptop and havent had any problems so far..
same here. my 9600m gt in my HP runs normal and hot as it has since day 1
The 17" MBP was designed to be three things: thin, light, and quiet.
Guess what? These three design choices do not sit well with a DDR3 9600M GT's cooling needs.
But yes, let us blame Nvidia anyway.
Then why are Macbook Pro's NOT the only laptops affected? Nice try though...
Because these are the only ones that are thin, light, and quiet.
Maybe it's the integrated battery overheating it or something. That battery IS jammed everywhich way in there, isn't it?
my girlfriend's hp laptop had that EXACT same problem, and she had an nVidia graphics card too.
i told her it was probably a heat problem, and made her get a cooling fan.
then i went and upgraded her to win7 the next week or so and the problem went away.
i have no idea which one worked, but it hasn't happened since.
I don't really want to get too out of hand here but with all the problems Apple's had with NVIDIA, it's as if they have an agreement where they buy their borked GPU's. Yeah a few messed up designs every year or so is fine, but when it comes with almost every new revision the odds are leaning a little too far in one direction.
So... this is a problem? I've had this issue for years on EVERY windows PC I buy. And now all the Windows Fanboys are coming out from blowing M$ to point fingers and say "ooo look it's not just us"?
I'm sorry but it seems like NVIDIA is the issue here. This problem occurred on the LAST batch of MacBook Pros too, and NVIDIA solved it with a firmware update. Apple doesn't control how the graphics work on its OS, you idiots. OSX tells the GPU to do its friggin job, and if the GPU doesn't do that then it isn't the OS's fault.
Now, if something terrible happens when Snow Leopard is released then I might blame Apple. It uses the GPU as a second processor for normal tasks when it isn't needed for graphics. Which "might" cause graphical issues. But not assuredly so.
As to the people who whine about Macs not being able to play games: STFU AND PAY ATTENTION. MAc has been able to run Windows for at least three years now, and PCMAGAZINE rated the Mac HIGHER than the best PC for running Windows. IDIOTS. You know what that means? That means I can play all your stupid windows games on my mac, BETTER than you can play them on your PC. So please, Windolts, Continue blowing M$.
You actually read, cite, and take heed of PC Magazine. LULZ.
TJ, why are you lying to us?
mhm... PC Mag rated the mac higher than the best PC for running windows, and then like two days later the mac no longer had that title. get your facts straight.
and once again, how long ago was this? like... half a year ago?
in case you haven't noticed, things change in half a year.
then again, you're blinded and made oblivious by your apple fanboyism.
Except for the part where you can get much better graphics cards in windows-based notebooks that will eat a 9600m for a mid-morning snack. Thus they will play games far better than the macbook pro, regardless of its cpu or ram clocks.
wow really? computers overheating out of the factory? in all my eight pcs i've had over the years, I've never had out-of the box over heating problem. If you've never had a pc, just admit it.
sure apple didnt make the chips, but they did decide to put it into their laptop. so they are at fault for making that decision. It's not a rocket science. They can expect a certain amount of waste heat emitted from their chips. then, from there, they can design a cooling system sufficient enough to keep it from burning up.
but with this "thin" crap apple is shooting for, they have overlooked the problem. They pushed for two GPU design, all cramped in a space size of your palm. and dont forget that the cpu is on the other side of that same space. I was wondering how a small fan can sufficiently cool the machine from the day they dissected it, and i guess the fear wasnt misplaced.
and microsoft doesnt make the hardware, like apple do, so they're actually free of blame when a hardware is at fault. and yet, you apple fanboys (more like cultists) point at microsoft, and scream "WINDOWS SUCKS AND THAT NEVER HAPPENS ON A MAC"
well, i hope tat you know better now
If you got this problem on every Windows PC you've ever used, then you must have some shitty hardware.
oh and one more thing,
you spend 2k to buy the "best machine to run windows on" ?? and you hate windows? wow i dont get you apple people. you people should get a sanity check or something
It's funny how Apple and fanboys nag everything Window. Yet, Apple write codes that will run Windows on their machine. It's like telling a rich uncle they disapprove of his business, but doesn't mind using the rich uncle's car or swimming on his pool...bunch of bigots! I think it's time for Apple stands on its own, and have consumer buy Apple to only use Apple and stop riding MS back. While Apple is at it, they can also remove Exchange feature from iPhone.
No moron,
There are numerous PC configurations that are available on the market today via the major manufacturers, and infinite other variations from custom builders such as myself that can eat Macs for lunch.
While you guys wait for Apple to update their product line every 12-18 months, we receive a plethora of upgraded parts along the way, from i7 processors to GTX 295 GPU's in QuadSLI mode...you know, hardware that won't see the light of day on a Mac for many many more moons, by which point we will have already moved on to the next iteration of parts.
Macs always, ALWAYS lag behind PC's in terms of power and parts availability.
Always have, always will, as long as one company sees to their manufacturing/assembly.
there early adopters for the laptop so there will problems,
Windows 7 ftw!
hahaha!
3000$ for a lemon!
no wonder they needed two graphics cards. lol.
On a serious note, I don't really get the point of the 17 inch. Call me a hater, but I think a 17 inch laptop should be more powerful than its 15 inch counterpart. I get that it's thin and light, but it's still a desktop replacement, so why does it have mid range laptop graphics in a machine designed to replace a desktop?
I wanted a machine that lasts 8 hours on battery. Granted, I only get 7 out of my MBP 17", but it's still good enough and way better than the 15".
In addition: Loving the absolutely HUGE and brilliant display - people who see it for the first time are kind of shocked at how beautiful it is. Build quality is fantastic too. And it still fits in my backpack rather easily. It's 1 pound heavier but I can skip the power adapter when going out so the net result most days is it's about the same weight as I was carrying before.
Did I mention the battery life? ;)
@nikster
Still, I don't know. Battery life may be good, but 17 inch is huge. Other than the battery, it's no better than a 15 inch. The screen might be good, but I'd like a better graphics card to complement that.
Also, why is it that this problem with Nvidia GPU's was corrected in August but we're still issues like this? I suspect Apple is using old batches of GPUs to cut costs.
Nikster, if you want battery life, there's other manufacturers to look after. But if you only say you want battery life and pick the Mac cause it looks cool (which it does, I'll admit), then don't lie to yourself.
Half a year ago I bought myself a HP EliteBook 2370p for my work. I was sick sitting behind a desk drawing on the Wacom all the time, and wanted to get out in the part and do the same thing as there, but with fresh air. Granted it's a 12 incher (albeit touchscreen) and it has only a 1.87GHz CPU, and integrated Intel GMA graphics - I also updated 2GB RAM to 8GB. It get's the job done, and on top of it, I bought a HP battery-on-battery dock, which is basically 2 battery packs in one and I get 10+ hours of Photoshopping out of that machine now, without the power cord anywhere near. It was the price of a medium MacBook Pro tho ~1900EUR.
That said, this solution works on most HP notebooks, and I guess other companies offer some similar solutions with batteries. You can go for a 17" without the fancy touch screens. My second laptop is a Toshiba, which should be changed pretty soon, and I'm considering a MacBook Pro, but not because of the said battery life, but because I like the design and beauty and I know I could get similar or more powerful machine from HP, Dell, Toshiba, Acer, Sony but I don't really need it, so I'll prolly go with Apple here.
I wonder if Intel will use this as fuel for their next barrage of Nvidia insults.