http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/ Engadget Comments for Renault's plug-in Kangoo be bop Z.E. features 'printed circuit' motifs, cute as a 390-point breadboard http://www.engadget.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.engadget.com en-us Copyright 2012 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 6:51AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
hydrogen technology has a lot of problems. Hydrogen is NOT a fuel - it is an anargy storage medium (just like batteries). Production, storage, distribution are all areas that would require significant improvement in order to make it a viable option.

On the other hand - battery technology is viable now (see Tesla Roadster) but batteries are being improved right now: new discoveries that makes charging times 100 times shorter, not to mention development of ultracapacitors.

Last but not the least - batteries I can charge at home / office and escape the dictatorship of oil companies.
]]>May 8th 2009 7:05AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/Plus you'll have milion cars emitting tons of steam every day...

So why not use directly electricity without the hydrogen step? (also 'cause water is actually important resource)]]>May 8th 2009 7:07AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/On the other hand hydrogen engines (wtf.. 70% is water on this planet plenty of it is avaible) are rather clean and actually being produced already over here in Europe.
If you want to be green instead of a yuppie in your Prius i´m putting my money on the hydrogen cars.]]>May 8th 2009 7:26AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 7:35AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
However, right now, we can produce electricity by various means, and hopefully we will make those methods more eficient while working on yet more methods. Solar panels, Wind turbines, Wave / flow based turbines, chemical reactions, burnd fossil fuels, etc.

Presently, we have a significant investment in the electrical infrastructure. If we lose petroleum based fuels, we also make the associated infrastructure mostly useless. WHat can be salvaged will be, while we invest in incorporating whatever fuel infrastructure we need. Going any fuel other than Electric may mean significant investment in infrastructure to support that fuel.

I would suggest that we have a significant knowledgebase related to working with electricity. We don't have nearly as much knowledge working with other fuels such as Hydrogen.


The "man" already has an infrastructure to maintain control of the populace if we shift from petroleum to eletricity... the oil company oligarchy would be replaced by the electric company oligarchy. Going to another fuel source could allow for anarchy until things get settled, so in the interest of civil obedience, electricity is a win.

Just my thoughts on the subject...]]>May 8th 2009 7:36AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
The turbines used at power stations are far more efficient than car engines. For a start they can run at their most efficient speed constantly unlike a car engine which starts and stops, speeds up and slows down at regular intervals. Electric motors can also be very efficient as they have only 1 moving part where a car engine has many moving parts, all causing friction and requiring power to start everything in motion. Car engines are also incredibly inefficient when in heavy traffic where electric motors will not use any power while stationary and are efficient at getting you moving again.

Yes it would be better if we could produce the energy perfectly cleanly in the first place but power stations (especially nuclear) are far cleaner than all the car engines.

Unless we can come up with new ways of getting hydrogen it is not a great solution as the energy required to produce it is far more than the energy it gives back in power (not to mention the potential danger of carrying rocket fuel in a car). It is much more efficient to just pipe the electricity down the wires to a power outlet. The only stumbling block with electric is the batteries and these are becoming better and better all the time. ]]>May 8th 2009 7:42AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/You might even wonder how efficient electric cars are if even Gaia considers that right now electric cars to be about as efficient as regular cars.

Also that hydrogen engines are dangerous is rather odd, over here at TU Delft I remember seeing tests of capacitors over 4 years ago which could withstand strong blows. (Also if they were dangerous, why would there being produced over 100.000 a year in the EU and quite a bit of public transport already uses them).]]>May 8th 2009 7:55AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
Leaving that aside:

a) if you're counting transmission of electricity then you also need to take into account the transport and extraction of oil (and of the coal used for electricity, which is generally found more locally and doesn't need to be taken to thousands of individual fuelling stations). I don't know what that does for the numbers, but I suspect it's better news for electricity.

b) due to limited battery capacity electric cars are usually built to be inherently much more efficient (smaller, lighter)

c) if you get an electric car now (not necessarily a good idea as they are a bit early in development, I'm just saying), it becomes more efficient as time goes on and renewable generation increases as a proportion.

d) talking of which, it's feasible to use local renewable energy (no transmission losses) to provide part of the power to charge your electric car.

I haven't looked at it in detail but I'm certain there are many studies on the topics you asked about, so if you'd really like to read one, ask about it. Every credible source I've read suggests that electric cars are significantly more efficient (in terms of CO2 emission per km) than internal-combustion-engine ones.]]>May 8th 2009 9:49AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
You need to do some research so you don't sound like an idiot next time. Powerplant turbines are far more efficient than combustion engines --- which have some of the poorest efficiency possible.
]]>May 8th 2009 3:06PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 10th 2009 9:21PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
Just let us know when it's on the market and stop bothering us with could be models....]]>May 8th 2009 6:52AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
I have no intention of driving a fluorescent box around or even seeing scooters ever again.]]>May 8th 2009 7:00AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 7:17AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
I mean why couldnt Corolla wrap their system around the Corolla? ]]>May 8th 2009 7:12AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
I mean why couldnt Corolla wrap their system around the Corolla or the Camry, they are sure to take off...]]>May 8th 2009 7:13AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 7:16AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
Everything Chevy does is always too little too late. They finally released the Camaro to satisfy the retro muscle crowd. Unfortunately, that crowd has already plunked down their cash on the Mustang, Charger, or Challenger. Yup, too little, too late.

When the Volt finally comes out, it will be a far cry from the initial concept, that was actually COOL looking. It will be a Prius wannabee. The good folks at GM Styling seem to be over-trumped by Management a lot. So, rather than go in their own direction and make a sharp looking hybrid, they'll go the market-proven route and design a EV that looks like a bug.]]>May 8th 2009 8:46AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 9:07AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
It is an electric plug-in with a gas engine to extend the range - an extended range plug in.

Got it ? Jeez

:P
]]>May 8th 2009 11:49AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 7:36AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 9:10AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 9:32AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 7:39AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 8:39AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 8:50AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 9:12AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
One: Boo, boo, electric cars aren't green because of the plants, the power grids etc. Well, hell yeah, but that can be changed. And here's the thing: you buy a car, you use it for years and perhaps you don't want to sell it for about 8-10 years. If you are driving an electric car, you've done your part of completing the greener world's puzzle. Who is more likely to invest in new energy production/consumption technology? The government or you? Obviously spending a few billion on smartgrids and green power is gonna happen a lot easier than you spending $20k on a new car. So I say EVs FTW here, mostly because they get YOU, the individual/family ready for greenery. BTW, hydrogen is terribly expensive. Honda is loosing a huge bunch of money on leasing the FCX Claritys out to people on a $600/month price.

Argument two: yO dat car loks stooopid!!!1!
Come ON! This is not the only form EVs can be produced in. If you want a masculine ubercar/SUV you might not find it today but in time you will.

Be happy that something cheaper (in the long run) is coming and you are actually doing something good for the planet by buying one of these (this is for my fellow Europeans, obviously Renault isn't taking this to the states).

Don't flame stuff that doesn't cause you bad only because it's not perfect. GM and a bunch of other huge companies may be nasty about a few things but Renault is actually trying to achieve something. IMO they're on the right track.

Peace love etc]]>May 8th 2009 9:26AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/The energy demands for doing that are just impractical. Think about it. If you wan't to charge a 120kWh (Tesla has 56, so 120 isn't unreasonable) battery in 5 minutes, you'd need a 120*12 = 1440kW power supply. So a charging station capable of charging 4 cars simultanously needs a nuclear power plant next to it. Also, assuming 99% charging efficiency (ridiculously high), you'd need to dissipate 14.4kW of heat per car. These are just basic calculations, but they won't change with better battery technology.

On the other hand, just pumping a car full of hydrogen in 5 minutes is entirely practical.]]>May 8th 2009 10:03AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 12:32PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 12:50PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
Dude... PRACTICAL???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYC23ANpEds&feature=related just skip to 1min 3sec

Hydrogen is dangerous. Hydrogen is expensive. Hydrogen isn't good for car companies OR consumers in the long run. When you've got electricity in a simpler form, why invest billions of research money when you have pure electric engines ready to roll?

And about batteries: you don't need more advanced batteries than what you have. You need charging poles, three on every block, sleek and slim; you need battery swapping programs for driving on longer trips. Whenever you stop with your car somewhere, you plug it into a high-voltage charger. For about twenty-two hours on an average working day, your EV is charging peacefully, unlimited, on the street, for a standard monthly fee.

BTW you guys know how hydrogen got to be as big as it is today? When oil companies saw the success of GM's EV1 they started to panic. So to please the green geeks, they came up with something they can sell to you (way overpriced) exactly as they sell gas today. That's hydrogen for you. We don't become a penny poorer, you get your green box, everyone's happy, right? Don't fall for it dudes. The world is evil. It wants to eat you. Mmm.]]>May 8th 2009 1:00PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 1:25PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
Also, i wouldn't want the hassle of remembering to put the plug in the car etc. etc. It is much easier to just fill the car up whenever you feel like it. And the "new better batteries are coming in 5 years! really!" nonsense is being repeated for 20 years now. Batteries don't tend to last very long too. 3 years max before performance start to suffer badly. And then only when they are treated right.
But nooo, we should all muck about with batteries because thats what the oil companies don't want us to do. Because they are evil. Great fucking logic.

Anyway, you still have only shouted about how expensive hydrogen is without citing sources, and you've spewed your horribly complicated -compared to hydrogen- utopia around.
Go compare the two without your conspiracy bullshit and then hydrogen comes on top as the easier to use and implement nextgen fuel.

*http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=lithium+battery+explosion&aq=0&oq=lithium+batt
**ever checked for new laptop batteries? Even 'compatible' batteries are very expensive. You'd need a whole array of those to power a car]]>May 8th 2009 2:00PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
The interior is refreshing though, but they will never manufacture it the way it looks here. Some idiots will come in and say "No, this is no good for the consumer, they wouldn't want something like this..."]]>May 8th 2009 9:48AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/

]]>May 8th 2009 9:52AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/a cross between a Prius and this car.]]>May 8th 2009 11:01AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/May 8th 2009 11:02AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/08/renaults-plug-in-kangoo-be-bop-z-e-features-printed-circuit/
Dude... PRACTICAL???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYC23ANpEds&feature=related just skip to 1min 3sec

Hydrogen is dangerous. Hydrogen is expensive. Hydrogen isn't good for car companies OR consumers in the long run. When you've got electricity in a simpler form, why invest billions of research money when you have pure electric engines ready to roll?

And about battery tech in EVs: you don't need more advanced batteries than what you have. You need charging poles, three on every block, sleek and slim; you need battery swapping programs for driving on longer trips. Whenever you stop with your car somewhere, you plug it into a high-voltage charger. For about twenty-two hours on an average working day, your EV is charging peacefully, unlimited, on the street, for a standard monthly fee.

BTW you guys know how hydrogen got to be as big as it is today? When oil companies saw the success of GM's EV1 they started to panic. So to please the green geeks, they came up with something they can sell to you (way overpriced) exactly as they sell gas today. That's hydrogen for you. We don't become a penny poorer, you get your green box, everyone's happy, right? Don't fall for it dudes. The world is evil. It wants to eat you. Mmm.]]>May 8th 2009 1:02PM