Microsoft extends XP downgrade availability to 2011. When will it end?
By Donald Melanson 
posted Jun 19th 2009 1:53PM
posted Jun 19th 2009 1:53PM
Hold onto your hats folks, 'cause Microsoft has just done the unthinkable and extended availability of its Windows XP downgrade option, again. This latest move, of course, follows complaints that new licensing issues with Windows 7 could cause some serious headaches for businesses still hanging onto XP, and basically force them to either stock up on XP-ready systems before April 23rd, 2010 or face the possibility of Vista-only downgrades thereafter. The new deadline isn't quite as clear cut as past ones, however, with Microsoft saying only that the XP downgrade option will be available for 18 months after the release of Windows 7, "or until the release of a Windows 7 service pack, whichever is sooner." So, as ComputerWorld notes, if Microsoft pushes an SP1 update out the door six months after Windows 7 is released, folks could well be out of luck yet again -- at least until Microsoft sets a new deadline, that is.[Via Electronista]
This needs to stop. XP needs to die. If you can't run Windows 7, then you really need some new hardware. Simple as that.
I really think that microsoft should hurry up and end windows and jump to there new project. I forgot what its called, but I think there completely new operating system can dig them out of this hole.
Yes, if you are a consumer whore, but for the rest of people, XP is nice, runs pretty well on old machine and is quicker than windows7 on high-end machine.
And truly, many people don't care about aero.
What if you don't want vista or 7 because 7 now appears to have similar fatal flaws and stupid versions for the different types of systems. What if it's going to be plagued by problems for the first 1-2years and XP still works great.
My XP is fine, I'm getting a new computer in a month or so, I'm going to stay with XP until getting windows 7 is a good and proven upgrade.
"their" new product. not there.
@Sean
I think it's called Mojave ;-)
Seriously. XP will be 10 years old in 2011. Suck it up and buy a new PC!
If it ain't broken, don't fix it. People for whom XP works perfectly do not want to make any change to their operating environment unless they absolutely have to. A capable hardware which is sufficient to do everything you need to do should not be obsoleted just because you're forced to "upgrade" to a newer bloated operating system, which does not even provide any major new functionality.
Its not about hardware. Its about the business not wanting to upgrade. If they upgrade then they will need to get a license for ever other computer in there business which would cost a lot so they just want to keep XP. There is also the face that a lot of business use programs for XP and if they get Vista and 7 they will get compatibility errors so they would be stuck or end up having to pay for that software for vista/7 if its available which it might not be.
If your thinking "Just get another software" well that would cost more money too because you would have to pay for the license for that and you would have to train everyone in the company.
Simple Answer upgrade costs a lot of money and/or is a hassle.
no, because then everybody would scream 'omg fuck vista bring back xp!'
Microsoft just need to give a free vista pack that sorts out its infamous flaws, and make it so its similar to xp but not completely the same
Microsoft should grow some balls. Apple would never do this.
Another thing with upgrading is you would have to train everyone over again to use vista/7 too..
Magallanes are you serious?!?! wtf are you running a single core hyperthreading p4? You seriously need to check out windows 7, its not about aero either it not that it matters since most gtx 260 run for 150 dollars. And security wise is much more than the give everything admin rights approach that xp has its not only aero. If your a gamer WDDM 1.1 is a must you should look up technical differences before you say anything. And besides theres a free copy of xp to run in windows 7 for ultimate and business users you get two for the price of one.
i have a single core amd 3200+ with 1 gig of ram and a 36 gig raptor hard drive.
my computer ran xp like a champ, could edit video with cs3 programs and it never crashed.
my computer ran vista like a champ, never blue screened, never had a problem.
my computer currently runs windows 7 rc amazing, fast as xp, can still game and video edit.
all of this vista hating is a joke, if you have problems with your computer buy a fucking mac, i havnt used an antivirus program in 3 years and have never had a virus of spyware.
99% of the problems people encounter in windows is user error, in which case maybe they would better off on a computer where you cant do anything to it.
Surely if these luddites want to stick with XP they should be more than happy with their current hardware.
Oh, that's right - Hardware only has a 5 year asset life & they get new hardware which comes with a new operating system.
This is just about laziness to spend time working on compatibility issues which should be ironed out by the company buying the new kit.
Magallanes are you serious?!?! wtf are you running a single core hyperthreading p4? You seriously need to check out windows 7, its not about aero either it not that it matters since most gtx 260 run for 150 dollars. And security wise is much more than the give everything admin rights approach that xp has its not only aero. If your a gamer WDDM 1.1 is a must you should look up technical differences before you say anything. And besides theres a free copy of xp to run in windows 7 for ultimate and business users you get two for the price of one.
mike mike MIKE LOOK HERE!
shut up.
Why should a business upgrade if it has thousands of existing XP users? Specifically, what is the business case to show a return on investment for the huge migration cost (user re- training, support staff re-training, migration of existing bespoke apps, etc)? There's rarely a valid business case and that's why most large corporates are still on XP. And the reality is that substituting Windows 7 for Vista in those business cases will make very little difference.
alan! alan! ALAN!
way to fail. I'm sure you don't know the difference between the 2 but it's ok, you're just a moron ;)
"hanging onto XP"
My company is about to upgrade to XP from 2000 "some time" this year. 2000 actually boots pretty fast but the 1.6GB ram limit and IE6 are killing me.
To everyone saying that it's expensive for business to upgrade their machines:
You act as though XP was the first operating system ever invented. Let's not forget that businesses had to upgrade *to* Windows XP at some point. We're not still running DOS either...
Windows 98 used to be everywhere... but "somehow" businesses ended up on XP. What made them do that? And what makes XP the "best operating system ever... so good that we will use it forever?"
A lot of the comments here seem to think people are continueing to use XP because they don't have the hardware to run Vista or 7. For many people that is not the case and the reason I stick with XP is because it offers a vastly superior experience to Windows 7. The interface is more consistnet, more effective and and less wasteful meaning XP users can be more productive than users of Windows 7.
The fact that Microsoft need to keep offering XP downgrade extensions is proof that most people feel the same way as I do. The only way Microsoft will get out of this situation is if they implement the complete XP interface within Windows 7. If they did that I'd be happy to upgrade but I'm not giong to switch to an operating system that reduces my productivity. Since Linux supports multiple desktop environments I don't see why Windows can't and offering both environments would please everybody.
@Sean
I believe you're thinking of Singularity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Singularity
@Richard
You're assumptions are so full of shit I don't know where to begin.
@fastm3driver
It sounds like you need to find a better to work for. . .
Unless you own said company, in which case you are an asshole.
Richard, where are you getting all this? XP has random, unpredictable SNAFUs that may be easy to fix, but still scare the shit out of my parents. I reformatted their computer and installed the Win7 RC and they LOVE it. My dad finally understands file organization, and has an easy time dragging things from the downloads folder to his pictures/video/whatever folder; his desktop isn't covered in random stuff he's downloaded now.
Merging the quick launch bar and the taskbar was brilliant on apple's part, and I'm glad microsoft stole it for Win7. Again, it makes it much easier for my parents to navigate through their PC.
"@Richard. You're assumptions are so full of shit I don't know where to begin."
I suggestion you begin by learning the the English language because I'm not an assumptions and don't like being called one. Once you've done that I suggestion you explain why 61.54% of people are still using XP and only 24.35% are using Vista. Clearly there's something people don't like about Vista and 7 and in the case of myself and a lot of the people I know it's the bloody terrible user interface.
Richard, the win7 interface isn't terrible. I'd say it's FAR more intuitive than XP's. The problem that you have is a classic one: dealing with change.
I happen to agree with Richard...
Windows 7 may be more intuitive for the new user, but for someone used to XP, it's far more efficient.
I don't want Aero, I WANT the classic (small, simple, customizable) start menu (even though YOU think the search is quicker), and I want to keep a simple minimalistic windows experience when I have to use Windows.
In Vista/7 they added more crap to the windows. The Back/Forward/Location bar cannot be re-sized, removed, or combined with other tool bars like XP where I can put every button, the address bar, file menu, and everything I need to use that window in one toolbar. In Vista/7 you have to have at least 2 tool bars across the top of the window. The Navigation and the "Organize" bars. If you enable the file menus, there's another bar cluttering up the screen.
Also, in Win7 (I haven't tried the latest RC, but the beta I tried in December) you cannot put the dashed lines and +/- icons in the treeview for Explorer. If you deal with a lot of files in a lot of folders (like most programmers do) it's a MUST HAVE feature that's been removed (to make it look pretty I guess?)
I won't even get into how convoluted it is to get to the networking settings now or other advanced configurations that they have buried further making it harder to administer the system...
Just because YOU like it doesn't mean it works for everyone. Windows Vista/7 are not as customizable as XP. Period.
@Richard
"Once you've done that I suggestion you explain why 61.54% of people are still using XP and only 24.35% are using Vista."
I see you've taken those stats from hitslink. Take a look at that data again and then tell me why XP markethsare is monotonically decreasing while Vista is monotonically increasing.
And can you point to where the UI is more inconsistant in Windows 7? One of the things they've spent a lot of time on is streamlining the UI, so I bet the dev team would like to know what is still lacking.
Woohoo. I'm sitting pretty for a couple of more years. I've been using XP Pro for years and think how much this has saved on upgrading hassles. Microsoft should just dump Windows 7 and start working on Windows 8 to be ready by 2012. Maybe by then I'll be ready to upgrade. Windows XP 4ever. Known as the OS that just wouldn't die. Why buy a brand new pair of shoes if the ones you have still have rubber on the soles and they're nice and comfortable. Maybe Microsoft should just stop building new OSs with bigger feature sets and just give minor upgrades to WinXP for stability and speed enhancements. Corporations desire not to upgrade is really a compliment to Microsoft for developing an OS that doesn't warrant a replacement.
No, moron, what needs to stop is Microsoft pulling this crap. They should just sell all their products that in demand like a normal company without a monopoly.
wasnt xp launched in 2001?
ten years? in technology - seriously guys?
Windows XP, to be renamed Windows 'Zombie Edition'. Grab your shotguns!
Engadget should put up a poll as to how many people think Windows XP is flawed enough that it is necessary to upgrade to Windows 7.
I swear that XP runs great and I have never seen a BSOD in my years of running it. I don't give a crap about Aero. I have an older computer and don't want to upgrade just yet. What is it that Windows 7 can do so much better than Windows XP that consumers and corporations "MUST" upgrade. Sure I can understand some individual that has the latest hardware and the latest software and likes to lick Steve Ballmer's balls, but for the person that just wants to use MS Office and browse the internet and use e-mail, why must they be forced to upgrade.
Just because MS says, you're done with that and I can sell you this instead. Be reasonable. XP ain't broken for most users. If it really was, it would have been gone already. That's like some company telling you that your good running car is five years old and has 70,000 miles on it, so you must sell it and get a new car. Screw that. Maybe one person it's OK for, but if you own a fleet of taxis or trucks, you'd be up sh!t's creek and nobody would stand for it. I'll move up when I'm ready and nobody is gonna tell me when. In business, the customer is always right.
MS and Ballmer can kiss my buttocks. And for those that must have Vista and Windows 7, get 'em and STFU. The rest of us can manage with Win XP, OK.
There is only one reason to upgrade to windows vista/7 and that's if you need DirectX10 if not then you have an extra 10gigs of bloat for a shiny interface... as for security you can use Sandboxie or ThinApps and virtual machines for testing stuff ... ThinApps currently do not work on 7 and Sandboxie does not work on 64 vista or 7 it can work in XP 64 with the kernel patch removed. BTW I am currently using 7 and have been since the day beta started but will be dropping back to XP 64 for various reasons.
Lol!!!!!!!!
XP for Lyfe. =)
So what you're saying is that Microsoft sucked for ending XP downgrade availability, but they also suck now that they've decided to extend it? Jeez... tough crowd.
TRS..
Please prove to me that Microsoft sucks.. Thank you.
they suck for charging new pc/laptop buyers to downgrade from vista.
Ohhh gotcha... So other companies offer to take the time to uninstall the factory OS and reinstall with an older one for free? Not that I don't believe you but I'd love to see you link to that.
uninstall? who needs to manually uninstall? they can just creat a xp version restore disc for that particular model and is automated.
So you are suggesting that Microsoft simply give away millions of copies of it's software absolutely free? Not much of a business man are you..
"ok, look here. when a new OS comes out, PPL SHOULD BE EXCITED ABOUT IT and want to go out and buy it. that means the OS is good and people trust the company. this is how apple's OSes are released. when a new OS comes out, ppl dish out the extra money to get it and upgrade their old one."
Businesses aren't in the business to be "excited". I'd rather them save $, and keep people employed, than have Win7 and find that they cant keep 1/3 of their workforce.
Apple machines typically are in small outfits where upgrading some machine to do video/photo editing isnt too big a deal. So there is a big difference.
It is not uncommon to see XP on THOUSANDS of machines in a university lab.
If you can find a similar # of macs in one place, I'll bet they dont rush out for a new OS upgrade every two year either.
TRS you are obviously to mac fanboy to understand business. There is a difference bewteen average home consumer and a business. Its the businesses that want to down grade for many different reasons but the main ones are software that they have been using for the past 10 years. Its not as easy to just upgrade operating systems right away. The programs have to be rewritten and a business does not want to upgrade to the latest operating system right away because the security is unproven.
Mac are not used in the main business world and when they are its for graphic applications which get updated every year.
TRS, I am excited about Win7, and I know that many others are as well. Vista works these days too; the only reason people hate it is because the apple ads told them to/they have really really old PCs.
TRS - This has nothing to do with Individuals, Vista, or Apple. This is about corporations that use windows XP refusing to install Windows 7 on their new computers. It's not because XP is better (it isn't) its because the tech guys don't want to learn a new OS.
That is why MS needs to kill XP already, corporations CAN continue to use XP, they WILL. Because they are used to it.
And of course Apple doesn't have this problem, serious companies don't use Mac OS, they use XP.
I use ms, and am no fan of mac, but TRS has a point. I've get more than enough hardware, but still use xp. Of course, the only thing I do in windows is gaming, otherwise I'm on linux.
@Giroro:
Your assumptions astound me. With the lifespan of XP, people were able to create a lot of specific enterprise management software specifically for XP. It's not about the techs not liking it. I know a few techs that would suck off MS if they could, but even they say they like the ability to set ___ configuration remotely without having to drive to the various business locations to do it. Changing things is not about preferences. It's about replacing all your tools, applications, etc. Especially for an OS.
@Andir3.0 "With the lifespan of XP, people were able to create a lot of specific enterprise management software specifically for XP."
That shit works on Windows 7 too, That was the whole reason that Win7 can natively virtualize XP?
Applications may work... but applications that change settings for power management, securing the OS from changes, disabling certain features, etc. These are all very different than what YOU are talking about.
Why does it have to end? IMO XP > Vista & 7. I don't see this ending and if it does it will just piss off a shitload of people.
GRAHGH!
Do not comment about how 'vista' or '7' sucks worse than XP until:
A: You have used both for an extensive amount of time on hardware newer than 10 years old
B: See A
Don't be a fucktard, i have used all 3 and there is no point of upgrading to 7 or Vista when you have 1000s of comps running XP. Its just a pain in the ass.
read my other post
----------------------------
Its not about hardware. Its about the business not wanting to upgrade. If they upgrade then they will need to get a license for ever other computer in there business which would cost a lot so they just want to keep XP. There is also the face that a lot of business use programs for XP and if they get Vista and 7 they will get compatibility errors so they would be stuck or end up having to pay for that software for vista/7 if its available which it might not be.
If your thinking "Just get another software" well that would cost more money too because you would have to pay for the license for that and you would have to train everyone in the company.
Simple Answer upgrade costs a lot of money and/or is a hassle.
Wow you have a very tight grasp on the English language combining two derogatory terms into a single slanderous word! Congrats I'm impressed.
But again that is your opinion and if there is one thing I've learned today is that I don't get two sh|ts about your opinion.
Bash, you seem to forget companies have always had to purchase new licenses for their operating systems. Do you think all companies started off with XP or something?
Considering Microsoft is adding XP Mode to the Business and Enterprise versions of Windows 7, I think they're doing more than enough to encourage businesses to jump from XP to 7. The hardware issue is also moot, since Windows 7 runs perfectly on 5 year old hardware (my 1.4Ghz Pentium-M laptop runs it aero-less without a hitch).
So, essentially, it's people freaking out and hoping the mass histeria will somehow delay companies' OS upgrades a couple of years. Microsoft should stick it to them.
@ Greg2k
The XP mode is joke. Its buggy and it has compatibility issues. On top of that its pretty much a VM so its slow and doesn't have access to any of the actual hardware.
Wait... it's his opinion that upgrading software costs money? Weird.
@Bash
It has similar or better performance on existing hardware.
It's security model is more, well, secure.
It's networking features are more robust.
It has a modern internet browser built it.
The 64-bit version has better support.
It finally allows me to fire all the old farts hacking away at corporate code that cost me a fortune in health care and pension distributions.
It's damned sexy.
I'm going with Bash here, even if he feels expletives are necessary.
At my shop, the financial software that drives our business isn't even Vista compatible yet, with a major web app getting the nod for ie7 just a few months ago. We'll be upgrading a few months after 7 is out, assuming that Vista and 7 are similar enough that the we'll be able to use that software without waiting too long for it to be compatible with 7. I could care less if we upgrade, but we need to sooner rather than later, as the machines running XP are slowly dying. Since virtual desktops aren't that practical yet, I want my next workstations to be live and die with the current OS.
Microsoft's biggest goof lay in trying to force business to update faster than the typical 2-3 year lag from when consumers pick up a new OS.
Bash, the world we live in requires constant upgrades, it's something you have to accept. I agree with Greg2k that everyone's gotta keep moving, and Microsoft should help that process instead of delaying the inevitable.
I believe MOST people wont care. They'll just say "awesome, this looks cool". But for people who really want to hold on to XP they need to learn how to build their own PC and buy their own choice of OS.
@ Bash - The whole point is time moves forward not backwards. If companies need to buy new computers put windows 7 on them. Most organizations wait 5-7 years to do so and do so at the same time so what is the point of 'downgrading to XP?" If they did that NO NEW OS WOULD EVER BE LAUNCHED.
@ Kumar - Then whomever is handling the software needs to get trained ASAP because again progress starts with change, or fire the people who can't do so and hire people who can. I worked for a data supplier for auto parts and they had people working there who stopped learning at windows XP (barely) and still used windows server 2k in 2008 (with servers from 200). Every time we needed to update our software library they would pitch a fit not because of the work it would take but because they had no clue as to how to do it and they lost business in the millions.
@HotBBQ
None of those features are really worth upgrade 1000s of computers and retrain everyone in your company.
@DizWhiz
There is no //really good// features that Vista/ 7 have that companies //really need// so there would be no point of upgrading and going through all the hassle and retaining everyone.
If Microsoft won't just end XP and show it has faith in it's current/new products then how are they ever going to expect the users to want to adopt them?
i agree. If MS didn't have anything coming out and were thinking how everyone else is, with the old "XP is great, lets not make anything else" everyone would be bitching then like "Come on, MS!! Apple's putting out this new stuff and you're just sitting on your ass! Lets see something new!" So they're trying to stay competitive and everyone is crying the blues!
They need to just make a "Microsoft XP-2, .3, .4, etc" and then go on from there like they do with Apple and OSX
Now that's an idea I could get behind. Too bad it won't happen.
i believe microsoft call it service pack 1, 2, 3 etc...
just need some cool animal codenames like leopard, panther, tiger...
When microsoft makes an operating system worth a crap!
They're trying to do the right thing by their customers. It doesn't mean that they're not confident in their new products....it just means that they're trying not to step on any toes as far as their corporate users go until they absolutely have to.
It says more about Vista / Win 7 than about XP.
Not a lot of excitement from the business community of the new OS.
Most companies think XP is good enough and will not spend resources in getting Win 7.
Focus (and money) is probably invested in making workforce more mobile and agile.
Microsoft probably need Win-mobile 7 more than Win 7 right now.
mikethevee:
You know the difference between they're, there, and their????
What are you doing commenting on Engadget then?
sorry, I clicked on this post in hopes that one day, the average intarwebz dweller will be able to discern the difference between words that have similar/same pronounciations.......
Obviously I gave the intarwebz denizens too much credit.
In most work enviornments, I can't see why most people would need anything above XP.
Windows 7 is fine for those "hardware-lolicon" that thinks that every gadget/software must be, at most, 3 year old, otherwise is outdated and useless.
Or it's for people like my parents who click on "scan your system now or die of a virus" pop ups and wiped their computer useless not once.. not twice but THREE TIMES. XP = Gaping Security Hole
I got them to buy a new Vista PC, locked down the admin account and they have been running smooth without incident for 6 months. (Which is a new record for them.)
Eh? The whole point of this article is about NEW PCs!!!
You know, NEW, as in "less than 3 years old"
FFS
You caught me, I'm a tech pedophile.
Way to show no confidence in your own new OS Microsoft, way to go..
It's called business sense.
You have companies in a world-wide economic slump that have systems that rely too much on proprietary software.
No new version of that software = stupid move to upgrade when the software you use may not work.
Not to mention the staff retraining time/cost.
i don't really get it. i'm not a windows user, but i still don't get it. it'd be like driving a '47 Buick as your main car and saying "well it gets the job done just fine so why upgrade?"
i don't know... fuel injection, improved safety, better fuel economy, modern features like A/C and power doors and windows. the analogy might be a bit of a stretch, but not really. people are clinging to 10 year old technology... things have improved... move on.
and i don't care that it's big businesses and therefore more difficult to roll out.... the USPS fleet isn't a bunch of trucks from '47 either.
@justsilhouettes,
not being a Windows user myself either...I guess things are a bit more complicated.
if 95% of all use in a company with a PC is browsing, type on a word & Excel document, the additional marginal utility of upgrading to Win 7 - which would need some HD and SW as well vs. investing that money to improve mobility......say new blackberry / Win Mobile / iPhone and the cost of train the employees to use these tool efficient is probably better investment to a company.
The desktop PC is clearly loosing importance in the corporate world and hence its priority in the IT-budget is going down. Most companies have not forgotten the massive uppgrade made in 2000 for solving the "millennium bug" - which most IT managers realized today was a total ripoff and brought very little benefits.
Apples to Oranges.
I think this shows a solid dedication to there customers. Whenever Apple makes a serious OS upgrade (an no Service Pack 1 a.k.a. Leopard was not a serious upgrade) they pretty much abandon previous customers.
pre much. While Apple does seem to show great customer service, I've always thought they are very abrupt in forcing customers into newer products. Although I believe that MS needs to do this sometimes too (but they have a MUCH larger customer base to deal with)
Probably one of the many reasons why they have such a tiny market share.
Legacy support is awesome for those who want it (XP users.) I didn't want to be using XP for the next 10 years and I wanted my OS to fully maximize my computers potential so I jumped ship.
Mac OS 8 abandoned older systems for PowerPC. Now PPC support will be dropped with 10.6. This isn't the first time legacy support was dropped.
The way Apple runs their software division is far different then Microsoft. I would hope XP stays along forever so I do not have to spend six months on the phone with mom as her tech support. Like many people, she will be lost if her home page doesn't go directly to her e-mail box. Not everyone is tech savvy like us.
I thank MS for keeping XP around and thank Apple for keeping my Mac running as fast as it can.
i've been using the windows seven RC and while I like it, and it has some cool features, I just don't see the need to upgrade to it. However when the time comes to get a new machine I won't mind it at all if it has windows 7 preloaded instead of XP or Vista.
death to Vista
Magallanes are you serious?!?! wtf are you running a single core hyperthreading p4? You seriously need to check out windows 7, its not about aero either it not that it matters since most gtx 260 run for 150 dollars. And security wise is much more than the give everything admin rights approach that xp has its not only aero. If your a gamer WDDM 1.1 is a must you should look up technical differences before you say anything. And besides theres a free copy of xp to run in windows 7 for ultimate and business users you get two for the price of one.
microsoft is a joke.
Must be a bad joke cuz Apple's not laughing.
If they are, it reflects pretty poorly on their competitors, who, even combined, have 80% less marketshare.
Windows XP Zombie Edition
or Win XP the Dinosaur edition
For the love of development, people should STOP commenting and bitching about XP, i mean check the Ubuntu users they have every 6 months upgrades and non complains. If you don't want anything better because you hardware is order than you OS (main cause) then don't bitch and whine. Why you bought computers in the first place btw ?? if you don't like to update ?
Try to sell that idea to a company with 1k+ computers that does the work just fine as is...
Do you guys think micro$oft care about you? Its all about the big players...
mate i am working in a company that has about 39k users and i am working in their IT division. But the whole point and all the comments that are before and after these ones are not about the corporate users { and believe me, they do have an upgrade path (i.e. recently we upgrade to MS office 2007)} but all these people that try to find every excuse to have extended service for an OS that once was extremely good and now sucks in so many levels.