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Also...


First!

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You cannot generate electricity from a treadmill - a treadmill *requires* electricity.

The amount of electricity you can generate from a stationary bike (probably the optimum device you could generate electricity from in the entire gym) is trivial - less than $.01/hour.

Its not even enough to power the computer and display on the bike, never mind the personal LCD television (if it has one). If they had neither a computer nor LCD, in an average sized gym 10 bikes would probably generate less than $20/mo in electricity.
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And if that weren't bad enough, you either put a big enough battery of ultracaps to store the longest rides people might take (~50 miles), and have that much cost and deadweight adding nothing for the 5-mile trips, or you cut it back and rip hard riders off on their bus fare.

The practical thing is to use a smaller ultracap on the bike (since you only need to store energy from one downhill or stop, for the next uphill / start, not the entire ride) and use the power on the bike, where the power levels are nicely matched. Since this bike will be easier to ride than a standard bike, you can rent them a bit higher, and use the difference to slightly help buy electricity/LPG/whatever to run your buses
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It only puts resistance on when you are braking. That's how regenerative braking works. This is just like any normal bike pedaling wise, it just weighs a bit more.]]>Jul 17th 2009 11:43AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
Too bad it'll never get realized. Americans don't like bikes in their cities. :(]]>Jul 16th 2009 2:03AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
Read the comment of Charles Melbye again... it already exists in Sevilla!
I believe it is also tested in Paris now... but hey at least you can enter Engadget's recession antidote]]>Jul 16th 2009 2:30AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
--JJ
http://www.PostcardFilms.com]]>Jul 16th 2009 3:05AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/Jul 16th 2009 3:32AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
So many things would be feasible, yet, then so worthless if materials/manufacturing cost was zero.]]>Jul 16th 2009 2:10AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/Jul 16th 2009 2:10AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/Jul 16th 2009 2:13AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/]]>Jul 16th 2009 2:12AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/Jul 16th 2009 2:32AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/the best ultracapacitors have a power density of 30wh/kg, which is four times worse than simple Lion cells (a 0.5kg laptop battery stores about 60wh).

So let's say you put a 2kg (4.5 pound) ultracapacitor on a bike. That's 60Wh - the same energy capacity as the aforementioned laptop battery. A typical bus will use about 60kw of power on average for ~30mph city use. For one hour that's 60Kwh, or 60,000 watt-hours. Divided by the ultracapacitor capacity of 60wh, a fully charged bike can provide the bus with 1/1000th of an hour of power, or precisely 3.6 seconds. To fully power one city bus for one hour, you would need 1000 fully charged bicycles, which would save you a grand total of four gallons of gas (assuming a 45% efficient diesel drivetrain). Given the expense of producing bicycles with this capacity, and factoring in the weight penalty to riders, this idea is completely invalid.]]>Jul 17th 2009 9:35PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
Average size person using moderate effort cycling for 30 minutes = about 300 calories burned
100 calories = 1.1897 BTUs
One gallon of gasoline contains approximately 12000 BTUs of energy

Therefore, the cyclist will produce the energy equivalent of 0.0099147% of 1 gallon of gasoline.

Then factor in all the energy used to make and maintain all those ultra capacitors and the infrastructure and it just doesn't work out.

Sorry to burst bubbles. I think it's a great concept too but I've just never seen anyone prove how this stuff could actually generate any significant net energy gain.]]>Jul 16th 2009 2:19AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/Jul 16th 2009 2:24AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
]]>Jul 16th 2009 3:03AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/Jul 16th 2009 5:14AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/Jul 16th 2009 6:26AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
Granted, that dissipation energy also isn't that much, but it is still more than you think. Remember, hybrid cars reclaim a lot of energy when you brake and store it in the battery (that is the only energy source to recharge the batter in most hybrids). If you get millions of people using these bikes in a major city, just by shear volume it could add up to a lot of energy that is presently being wasted.

Don't forget, this technology is probably in its infancy, so the performance isn't that impressive, but if we give it a shot and keep innovating in the space, we could really get moving. Arguments like your make me glad that Henry Ford didn't listen to naysayers who said "Why do we need this automobile thing? It goes slower than my horse-drawn carriage!"]]>Jul 16th 2009 9:30AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
I think you are correct that, according to the article, the plan is only to harness the braking power. Therefore simple physics would mean that the power you get out of the braking is going to have to be less than the power you put into the pedaling. And obviously it would be significantly less because most of the energy of riding is dissipated as friction.

My point is not that there aren't ways of reclaiming power generated by humans. The point is how small of an amount it is. No matter how efficient you can make the technology you can't violate the laws of physics. Even at 100% efficiency, the human body is no match for other energy sources.

The other point is that most ideas like these are implying a net energy gain but they rarely talk about how much energy is used to produce the bikes, deliver them their locations, maintain their systems (including more travel by vehicles to where the bikes are), etc. To me this makes these plans more about politics and giving people "warm fuzzies" than actually making a difference for our energy needs.

Let's keep up the innovation like Henry Ford, but let's make sure that we are actually having an impact.
]]>Jul 16th 2009 11:21AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/that's a really shallow analysis. For starters, the food a cyclist consumes is not necessarily any more than what another human would consume-- Most people work out; someone driving a car is likely to go burn a bunch of food calories on a treadmill or playing field elsewhere, so your assumption that cycling inherently means more food consumption is off-base.

Further, food is a renewable resource. Fossil fuel is not.

I also think that when you talk about the "social cost" of driving, you're leaving out a lot of externalities. Fuel consumption and carbon dioxide production are only two of the issues cars bring up. Air and noise pollution, traffic fatalities, roadway building and maintenance costs, obesity (and subsequent healthcare costs), and a myriad of other problems all constitute social costs of driving that everyone has to bear, and that non-drivers bear disproportionately.

Finally, I'm not sure where you get the idea that a bike is only 10 times more efficient than a car. A fit person on a bike (not an enthusiast or racer) generally puts out in the neighborhood of 100 watts, or 1/7th a horsepower. Even with a more underpowered new car car today, let's say 100 horsepower, that's at most 1/700th of the power required to move the car around.

True, it takes longer to ride a bike somewhere than a car, so the power comparison isn't completely straightforward. But ignoring the case of cities (where bikes are often quicker than cars), let's assume the bike takes 3 times as long (i.e. the bike averages 15mph while the car averages 45mpg)-- even then, we're talking about 1/200th the total energy for the bike to get somewhere versus the car.

Are you sure you're not an auto lobbyist?]]>Jul 17th 2009 10:38AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
that may be true, but people get exercise biking.]]>Jul 17th 2009 1:14AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/until someone decides to steal the bikes!]]>Jul 16th 2009 2:45AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/Jul 16th 2009 2:48AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
I think your attitude is the joke.]]>Jul 16th 2009 9:33AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/Jul 16th 2009 3:44AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
With all due respect to what is an interesting design concept (and by "design" I mean "artsy-fartsy, blue sky, imagination building exercise"), there is absolutely no possibility that this could work at all, as other comments more clearly illustrate than I. Yet we're offered this solution--which is only slightly better than perpetual motion--as if it were a realistic and practical solution.

What irritates me greatly is that eventually a bunch of people will be saying "so why don't we implement this guy's solution? It's perfect!" And instead of accepting the idea that the Laws of Thermodynamics and energy transfer make it an impossible solution, instead we'll get screams of "Big Oil Conspiracy!"

We've become a world of people engaged in magical thinking, who believe if we just wrap it in a cool design and sell it to people, we'll get to a tipping point where people will naturally gravitate to solutions like this, and we'll all live happily ever after--regardless of physical reality.

Newsflash: Science is a harsh bitch. Magical thinking will not change the fact that the amount of energy required to accelerate a bus to speed is several orders of magnitude greater than the amount of energy needed for a bike rider to peddle around the corner.]]>Jul 16th 2009 3:55AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/Jul 16th 2009 4:05AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
If a bike rider and bike weighs 200 pounds and tops out at 10mph, a fully loaded bus 42000 pounds and tops out at 70mph, E=(MV**2)/2 tells us the energy difference is well over 10,000 times: it takes 10,000 times more energy to accelerate a bus to highway speed than it takes to accelerate a bike rider to average traveling speed.

Science is a harsh bitch. Sorry.

(And sorry for duplicate comments; I'm still getting used to the comment system here.)]]>Jul 16th 2009 4:20AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/Jul 16th 2009 4:35AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/the thing is that like what you said about "magical thinking" is also apply about that "physical thinking" you just single out every option that come to mind.
there were time when people thought about doing things and just did them.
all those ancients buildings and constructions would have never happen if they would have thought about it with your approach.
]]>Jul 16th 2009 8:41AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
Also, a cyclist can easily reach 30mph and buses in cities are probably limited to 50mph. Using your logic, that is a difference of about 600x. Assuming the hybrid buses have all the energy saving features you can throw at them (regenerative braking and all), this could offload a measurable amount of energy in bike friendly cities (say where 10% of the population prefers cycling when possible). The credit system promotes an energy conserving thinking.

Having said all that, I do agree with most people here, that the system will fail due to theft and abuse/hacking. It happened in London (bike rental service got abused). However, I disagree with those that bring the infrastructure cost and maintenance into consideration. It's negligible in the grant scale of things, if you consider the value of the service it provides to citizens, the savings it offer, the relative cost compared to building and maintaining other public transport systems.



]]>Jul 16th 2009 6:37AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/Jul 16th 2009 11:06AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
First, a bus will probably be in service for 12 hours. Which means you need 10,000 bike riders riding 12 hours a day, or 120,000 bike rider hours per bus. Assuming each person actively rides the bike 30 minutes per session, you'll need a quarter million bike rider sessions. (When I used to ride my bike to work when it was 6 miles away, it took me 35 minutes to get to work.)

And this assumes perfect recapture of energy from the bike rider. With that logic we could run a bus on a gallon of gasoline: the bus could just recapture all of its energy during breaking and reuse that energy starting back up. All the gallon of gasoline would be used for is to start the bus rolling in the morning.

The laws of thermodynamics essentially say you can't break even: there will be losses due to friction and resistance of all sorts. At best using some magical technique you probably could only recapture perhaps 30% of the total energy--which immediately triples all of the estimates above.

Meaning you'll need nearly three quarters of a million bike rider sessions of 30 minutes each per day to power a bus using regenerative breaking.

Feudal societies supported their feudal lords with a smaller ratio of peons to elite people.

Or, put it another way: if you want a free bus pass to ride the bus all day, assuming 50 people are in a bus (which is high, since a bus won't be near capacity for most of the day), you'll need to ride your bike around 72,000 miles first. (Though the transit authority reserves the right to increase this to match average rider capacity and to compensate for the fact that we also need to pay for the bus and the bikes: thus far, I'm assuming your ticket just pays for the energy used to move the bus.)]]>Jul 16th 2009 12:48PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/Jul 16th 2009 4:25AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/
but using it to power buses which are 100 times heavier is the stupidest idea i have ever heard of


i mean imagine a bus and a bike crashing in a head on collision, the bike's kinetic energy has practically no effect on the bus whatsoever while the bus effects the bike dramatically. therefore i think it would make more sense for the buses' breaking energy to be sent to the bikes instead where it would actually have a noticeable effect.]]>Jul 16th 2009 4:39AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/Jul 16th 2009 9:38AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/16/hybrid2-public-bike-concept-promises-to-help-power-city-buses/http://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=949.

The hybrid bicycle idea just doesn't provide enough energy to make it worth the weight and monetary expense of installing the components except perhaps in the case of electric bicycles. I'm a big fan of electric bikes as they avoid the nastiness of uphill peddling and behave better with car traffic than normal bikes, but still give you most of the energy efficiency of a bicycle.

Enviromentally, getting people out cars is 90% of the battle. Anything else is just gravy.]]>Jul 21st 2009 2:23PM