http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/ Engadget Comments for http://www.engadget.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.engadget.com en-us Copyright 2012 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
When I do buy an ebook reader, it will be one with no DRM that can handle PDF's of all kinds without issue.]]>Jul 23rd 2009 4:27PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 24th 2009 1:31AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
Your iPhone? joint ownership by Apple and AT&T. They try to control what you can do with it. Sure jailbreaking is tolerated now, but fast forward another 10 years and I bet you it will be completely illegal to do anything with one of these devices outside the scope of what they designed it for, and it will seem perfectly normal to prosecute you criminally if you do.

I feel like we're in a transition period deciding who owns that physical device you "paid for".
]]>Jul 23rd 2009 4:46PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 5:03PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 5:37PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
It's not a DRM issue - it's an ownership issue. With physical media, the licensing rights have been tied to said physical medium and thus were transferable. With digital purchases the license arrangement is with an individual.]]>Jul 23rd 2009 5:48PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 5:56PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/And it could just be a tag (which you could edit or remove) but they could also add a number in the sounddata itself to id you, the technology is available.
I have no idea what they do I don't use itunes, but I recall there was anger that they put all sorts of personal data like phonenumbers or something in the 'DRM-free' file that was too sensitive to have in mp3's, so they toned that down a bit.
I'm going by things I saw come by in the technews and you'd have to look up the details and read the agreement to know what's what though.
]]>Jul 23rd 2009 6:13PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
I'm not all knowing on the subject, but I recall reading the fine print on physical media (music video) where it is clear that you may not rent, lend, broadcast, copy or sell the item.

--

That Peanut Press has allowed content to move between media and device is incredible. Try that on with EA if u paid for a game available on multiple platforms; or with Nintendo if you owned a super nes cart available on VConsole. Try it with MS/Adobe if u got robbed and u had registered ur ownership with them. Try it with a music label when u paid for the record, then the cassette, then the cd (twice cause u lost one) and u think maybe nah screw paying again for a crappy digital copy.

We have been ripped off by content sellers forever, over and over, worse than freakin drug dealers.

One thing I read that was interesting was the upcoming issue with digital media when someone dies, you could bequeath your record collection but your iTunes account, what happens there

hmm as for on server recording of purchases (faux backup) well there is a disaster waiting to happen. Imagine the headline 'crackers attack amazon, destroy ownership database'

]]>Jul 23rd 2009 6:46PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
"Publishers choose whether they apply DRM to their content and thus determine how many copies of each title can be downloaded to different Kindle devices at the same time. There is no limit on the number of times a title can be downloaded, only limits on the number of simultaneous devices."

You can download the book as much as you want. The publisher can limit how many devices can have the content at the same time. The worst case scenario is it is exactly like a book, you can only have it in one place at one time, but in the instance the author used, the book is in 3 locations as once. Sounds reasonable to me.

I like like information. My Kindle 2 let'e me have 70+ books as reference material at my finger tips. I find it much better than a physical book. As for the 1894 thing, they did refund the money and there is a valid version available for purchase.]]>Jul 23rd 2009 7:32PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 7:33PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 7:35PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
]]>Jul 24th 2009 1:11AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
There has to and needs to be a better middle ground and I can't accept that jumping on every draconian big brother measure of control is the right or proper way to do this.]]>Jul 25th 2009 5:53AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 4:27PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 4:34PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 4:36PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
It's like you bought a BMW from a dealer in Germany, and BMW got upset because they didnt tell the dealer it was ok to export the car to the US, so the dealer came in the middle of the night, towed your car, and left a refund check in the mailbox.]]>Jul 23rd 2009 4:37PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
If that happened, wouldn't you be outraged at the idea of the seller coming into your garage without your permission to retrieve the car (even if they left your purchase price on the floor)?

]]>Jul 23rd 2009 4:38PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 4:38PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 4:39PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 4:44PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 4:59PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
If someone sells you a car through a private sale, it's up to YOU to do your due diligence and do a VIN check and be sure that it's not stolen. Takes a few minutes of your time to visit your local PD and can keep you out of jail.

Next time try some apples to apples comparisons.]]>Jul 23rd 2009 5:14PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Usage rights for hard copies of content are not the same for digital content. ]]>Jul 23rd 2009 5:05PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 5:11PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
Why are people so pissed about this, then? Shouldn't the public have done their research and found out that the copies were unauthorized for sale in the US?]]>Jul 23rd 2009 5:33PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 5:39PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
What would have happened if it were a physical book is that the publisher would have paid a fine (and probably coughed up all sales proceeds) to the real rights holder and you, the innocent buyer, would have gotten to keep your book that you bought.

This whole 'stolen car' analogy is rotten from the start, and like all bad analogies it just serves to confuse the issue rather than clarify it.
]]>Jul 23rd 2009 7:04PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
The analogy with the car was bad in the first place and this belief that it's on the consumer to do their research on the legality of every product they purchase is also completely counter to how our society and business works. The onus is and should always be on the businesses to take that course of action.

When a business you pruchased from comes back and reclaims the item you bought without your explicit knowledge, that trust is completely broken. Even above the DRM issues, this is one of an issue of trust in the consumer to business relationship; or rather the complete breaking of that trust.]]>Jul 25th 2009 6:06AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 25th 2009 11:12AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
Speaking of surprises, the fact that they could/did remotely remove content on your device is scary. I just imagined Sony reaching through and 'unhacking' or remote bricking my PSP simply because its running CFW or like you said about Apple and unauthorized music on my iDevices.

The irony of the two titles was probably the best part.]]>Jul 23rd 2009 4:29PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 4:28PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 4:30PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 5:03PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
It's not a perfect system, but it's a far preferable one to those with DRM servers and you wonder whether you'll still be able to read when they shut down the servers. Or now, whether your store of choice can reach through and call takebacks. Commerce shouldn't be played like Calvinball--we should, at an absolute minimum, know the rules in advance.

@CrtlBurn, you are correct, it's too soon to know what B&N will do with their recent acquisition, but hopefully they continue with eReader's way of calming media producers and not Amazon's. I'd like to think that one of the things that prompted the purchase was the eReader tech itself.]]>Jul 23rd 2009 6:11PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
The bottom line is that the Kindle is beholden to publishers -- content will always be king (though at times, content is worth more/less than others). If the publisher decides to pull the plug, the plug is pulled.

You aren't buying an actual "book" when you buy a Kindle eBook. There's nothing to resell once you're done, nothing tangible. What you're (in essence) buying is an encrypted file, and the right to read the book. And that is a right that can (in theory) be taken away by unscrupulous publishers.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Amazon, and unfortunately the Kindle, are at the mercy of many publishers. The content you own is being (in effect) licensed out, and it's (again, in effect) a limited license that can be withdrawn for a multitude of reasons. If that's a dealbreaker for you -- and I don't think it should be, given that this will almost DEFINITELY not happen again (after all the freaking out, Amazon will undoubtedly modify its publisher agreement to prevent this sort of thing from happening again) -- avoid the Kindle.

For me, it's a minor, not so troubling concern, given the multitude of other options the consumer has. If one publisher decides to shoot itself (and customers) in the foot, so be it. Their loss - the Kindle, which I've found to be a marvelous little (though overpriced) device, shouldn't be the victim in what is no more than a legal spat between titans.]]>Jul 23rd 2009 4:30PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/I guess Amazon was just hasty in making 1984 available]]>Jul 23rd 2009 4:42PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
What I don't agree with is publishers' attempts to charge the same amount or more for a 'license' as they do for physical media, and the fact that they don't make it obvious that you're basically renting the content instead of owning it.

Publishers already got in trouble over something like this by charging more for CDs than cassettes. At first CDs were more expensive due to manufacturing costs, but they never bothered lowering prices once it became cheaper to make CDs than cassettes. The resulting class action lawsuit made a bunch of lawyers rich, and we get coupons for free Frostys at Wendy's with the purchase of a baked potato.

Publishers see this as a way to increase profit margins. It's FAR cheaper to distribute digital content. In addition, they sell a license for the work instead of ownership rights. This allows them to play games like what we see with the Kindle. Some people will be upset, but others will just pay up again, or go buy a physical copy if they really like the work.

Publishers and content distributors need to make it CRYSTAL FRACKING CLEAR that you're buying a license to use the content, not ownership rights. Of course if they did that, they'd have to clearly outline the terms of the license, and people wouldn't be willing to pay nearly so much for content. This is why I either buy mp3s, or I grab music with my Zune Pass. I'm under no illusion that I own my Zune Pass music - and that's why it's so cheap. If it's a song I really like, I'll cough up $.99 to 'own' it in the mp3 format.

Maybe some day we'll see some consumer protection laws that require full, clear disclosure of terms for digital content. For now though I guess it's buyer beware.]]>Jul 23rd 2009 4:48PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
Harry Potter book 8 comes out for the Kindle. They sell a million copies at $10. The gather statistics on the Kindle to see that people are continually re-reading it. So the publisher "pulls" the book back, refunds your $10, and re-lists it for $15.

Oh an they use the stats they gathered to target specifically the people re-reading the book and are most likely to pay the extra money for it.

At what point does this cross the line from sleazy to illegal?
]]>Jul 23rd 2009 5:00PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
Actually you are buying an actual book and There is something tangible. There is a file, and you should own that file and be able to loan it to a friend or resell it if you no longer want it. The issue is that publishers distrust a that you might loan a friend an ebook by transferring, not copying the ebook file to your friend. And that your friend will
read that ebook, then give the file back to you when done. Copying a computer file is a trivial matter that most people barely give a thought to. A printed book can also be copied but it is far from trivial. Both acts are illegal.

I do own an older REB 1100 eBook reader and I love it. I have all my ebooks backed up on my computer and can load them onto or off of my reader at will. I have looked at the Kindle and passed because of issues such as Amazon's discretionary access. I understand publishers and authors are concerned that money will be lost to unscrupulous people. Frankly I think the obstacles created by DRM schemes is worse. If it would work, I would accept paying a few cents more per title to compensate for stolen books. Ultimately that would fail because even if those that purchased books were paying just a little more, eBooks lost to illegal copying of files would still be viewed as lost revenue and someone would start again trying to recoup the loss.]]>Jul 23rd 2009 5:05PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
@Everyone complaining about the reselling of songs/books/movies/etc. It is ABSOLUTELY illegal to sell COPIES of any physical media you have purchased in the first place, and do you really think the court system have enough time and money to sort out who's really selling their only copy of digital media and who's just selling copies of things (aka bootlegging)? ]]>Jul 23rd 2009 8:17PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
That sounds great to me. I get to read the book, then probably re-read, and then Amazon pulls the book from my Kindle and refunds me the purchase price. I get annoyed, but I got to read Harry Potter 8 for free! NO, I'm not buying it again for $15!]]>Jul 24th 2009 4:07AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
Not to rattle your cage here, but you are incorrect. An eBook is not, in fact, tangible. Tangible means something that you can grasp and hold. An eBook exists only as a series of electrical impulses, organized magnets, or organized i/o gates on a flash drive. When you buy an eBook, you are not buying the book itself, but a license to use the electronic copy that you are provided. You do not receive a tangible copy (unless they mail you the paperback too).

Now don't get me wrong; I agree with you that the owners should have more flexibility with their purchases. However, there is no law requiring this. And on top of that, we (the consumer) are the ones agreeing to these terms of licensure by purchasing the media in the first place. If people are pissed about the restrictive nature of licensed electronic material, they need to vote with their wallets. Which, coincidentally, is what the author of the article is suggesting.

I, for one, am one of those old fashioned folks. I still buy hard cover books when there is one I want to own. I still buy a CD of the artists I want in my music collection. I simply exercise my right to fair use and transfer the songs from my CD to my iTunes.

I realize that my seemingly luddite ways don't address the issue that the article author brings up (that being the inability to have unfettered access to the content you pay for, whether for ownership, or license). To that end, I can only offer this advice: suck it up and buy the competitor if you're that unhappy with their business practices. The only way we will see effective change with Amazon and the Kindle line of ereaders is to hit them where it hurts: their bottom line. ]]>Jul 24th 2009 1:13PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
I find it ironic that Amazon, who sells DRM-free music, would make such a huge mistake.]]>Jul 23rd 2009 4:31PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 4:33PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/Jul 23rd 2009 4:36PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
Even if the books were DRM free, that wouldn't stop Amazon from limiting the number of times you could download them. They handle it on their end - has nothing to do with the file itself. Same with the books they took back, they could have been DRM free, but because the Kindle is connected, they can reach out and take them back.

While I don't care for DRM, don't blame this on DRM - this is Amazon not being up-front about what is really going on.]]>Jul 23rd 2009 4:43PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
Furthermore, how hard is it to hook up a camera & OCR to an ereader to remove DRM? Answer: not at all.]]>Jul 23rd 2009 5:18PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/23/entelligence-two-strikes-for-kindle-is-enough-for-me/
It's crappy that the publisher put a limit on it but it's a lot better than the limit on iTunes. Should it be fixed? Definitely...Amazon says you'll always have access to your purchases, and letting the publishers get around this is reprehensible, but it's not really Amazon's fault that the publishers are greedy bastards.

As far as 1984 goes: Amazon apologised and said they're going to fix that situation in the future. If their explanation of what happened is true it was an unfortunate consequence of the way their purchasing system was set up. Don't knock them for a one time accident. Now, if it happens again, then there's a problem.

The Kindle and eBook market is new and there are going to be growing pains. Wait until the system reaches equilibrium before you start discounting it.]]>Jul 23rd 2009 4:39PM