http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/ Engadget Comments for http://www.engadget.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.engadget.com en-us Copyright 2012 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
The problem is Apple was relying upon a feature to be provided by a 3rd party (the open source community). You should never, never announce a feature to be available in the next version of your software if you do not have direct control over that feature. If Apple does not have control over the ship date, feature set, release quality, etc., then they should not have announced it.

Of course, this will be treated like it is nothing, not a big deal, and nobody was really excited about it. But people will mock that other file storage system not shipping - WinFS.]]>Oct 24th 2009 3:33PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:15PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:16PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
Those are really demanding server projects, and if they're all running OSX Server, that's a pretty big advert for its ability right there. Don't be so quick to write it off.]]>Oct 24th 2009 2:46PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 3:09PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://searchdns.netcraft.com/?position=limited&host=apple.com

Indeed, mostly Linux or unknown, only one OSX on the first page, and another on the second.]]>Oct 24th 2009 4:13PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
]]>Oct 24th 2009 4:45PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
Apple's servers are a joke if you are looking for real power. Our hosted apps and virtual infrastructure is run off of HP DL580's (4 quad core) or DL785's (8 quad core) depending on the needs. An Apple server could barely keep up with the low end DL300 series and with server real estate at a premium, you need to get the most out of your server.]]>Oct 24th 2009 6:02PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 6:11PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
@rob .. you have no clue what your on about. WebObjects is moving towards being open sourced and will for at least the next 5-10 years be the technology that underpins Apple's web apps. I know this for a fact. For the heavily hit parts of iTMS and for all static resources Apple does use Akamai. Everything else e.g. MobileMe is hosted internally as is most of iTMS. And yes Apple does spend a lot on bandwidth/hardware but they are a billion dollar company making billion dollar profits.]]>Oct 24th 2009 6:24PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 9:27PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:18PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:18PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
Now on topic: Who really cares? does ZFS have some fairy dust that other file systems don't?]]>Oct 24th 2009 2:20PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:22PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:32PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
ZFS would fix that, but oh well. here's for whatever new file system they come up with then! (HFS+ is almost 10 years old)]]>Oct 24th 2009 2:38PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:44PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 3:09PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 3:23PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 25th 2009 1:31PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 3:31PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
For most users the difference would be trivial. It's on a par with something like Grand Central Dispatch - ordinary users won't notice, it just would be nice for developers and system administrators, and might enable certain new user-visible features along the line.

For example, I personally would appreciate its ability to accurately store file modification times. I use a Mac, and HFS+ only has one-second accuracy (ZFS is nanosecond or so, or more realistically, whatever the computer clock does). That doesn't matter to most people; it caused me annoyance and wasted twenty minutes until I figured it out.

Not related to the Mac issue, obviously (outside Apple nobody much uses Mac servers) or HFS+ but with regard to using ancient file systems, there was also a serious bug that caused significant system downtime where I work because one developer didn't know that the ancient file system in question had a low limit on the number of files in a directory (64k). The equivalent limit on ZFS is, I dunno, something approaching the number of atoms in the universe.

Also, though ZFS might be 'open source' it's hardly been developed by geeks in their spare time - it's a Sun product, used (I believe) in some of their top-end storage systems.]]>Oct 24th 2009 7:05PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 25th 2009 11:10AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:22PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:25PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:46PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/10/23/apple-shuts-down-zfs-open-source-project/#more-3902

Evidently, Apple thinks this is another "world of hurt" it would rather avoid at this point. ]]>Oct 24th 2009 2:26PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
Dillger is a clown with no credibility.]]>Oct 24th 2009 2:32PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:39PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
This is the same problem I had with the Zune HD thread where his "5 Myths" article was referenced. Rather than any constructive debate regarding its validity, it was just one idiot after another attacking the source. As though that fallacious tactic had any merit.

As someone anxious to establish himself in the mobile app world, I'd like to think I could someday see some valuable insight on the merits of the Zune's platform and SDK when released.

Back on topic; with the loss of ZFS, and the news that Apple is looking for talent to progress their own, new file system, who's to say they *won't* incorporate the benefits discussed in this thread that ZFS promised? And make it open sourced, as they did with Grand Central?]]>Oct 24th 2009 3:52PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
Because he has a history of contradicting himself whenever he needs to change tack to make his latest round of apologetics. He may get some things right but even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again.]]>Oct 24th 2009 4:36PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
He does not really have a strong argument against ZFS... BTRFS is still in its beta and even Oracle says the following: "Btrfs is under heavy development, and is not suitable for any uses other than benchmarking and review. The Btrfs disk format is not yet finalized, but it will only be changed if a critical bug is found and no workarounds are possible.". Therefore to say that Oracle already has a file system and would not support ZFS is far from true.

Another issue with the editorial was the statement " Most home Mac users don’t even have multiple hard drives to pool with ZFS."... So what about Time Machine, something that would greatly benefit from ZFS? I feel that this editorial is what most non-apple users hate about Apple Fanboys: completely apologetic for every decision made by Apple, even if it is detrimental to the community. ]]>Oct 24th 2009 4:51PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
@Blind Boy. Thanks! That's the type of response I was looking for; relevant information from primary sources that constitutes an actual rebuttal to Dilger's piece.

I enjoy reading his stuff, as it's a nice break from the pro-windows extremism I see at the other tech sites I frequent. But it's great to see sensible counterarguments. ]]>Oct 24th 2009 7:46PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
'Pro Windows extremism'?

OK. That's a new one.

If you want a good example of Dilger being a hypocrite search for his opinions on why third party apps are useless before the iPhone app store came along and his complete reversal of opinion after.]]>Oct 25th 2009 5:16AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
I completely agree. I'm pro-Apple but I won't read Dilger's articles because he always seems to try putting a positive spin on bad news for Apple. John Gruber took him to task when he tried suggesting that the Uniform Type Identifiers in Snow Leopard are an improvement over the old Creator Codes (http://daringfireball.net/2009/10/congrtlns-osx), mostly for being a) wrong, and b) filling a long article full of unimportant waffle. Given this and other articles of his that I've read and found to be both cringeworthy and inaccurate, I do not consider him to a reliable source of quality information. Rather, I'd read his articles if I felt the need to hear from the Apple cheerleading group.]]>Oct 25th 2009 5:49AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
I agree. Whilst I may disagree with what Gruber says from time to time at least you know he's done his research and will be consistent in his approach. He has more integrity in his little figure than Dilger has in his entire body.

I don't mind people having strong views as long as they're consistent and can back them up.]]>Oct 25th 2009 7:17AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
Then when they get it, all they do is benchmark it and say 'oooo - is it FASTER now?' - even though performance is relatively unimportant as to why the technology is being adopted.]]>Oct 24th 2009 2:28PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
Are the old ones "Good Enough", even with SSD and new styles of storage arising?]]>Oct 24th 2009 2:29PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:29PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:36PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
That line right there truly infuriates me. Why does the Mac community (or lack there of) have such low opinions of themselves? I know a good number (I cannot say a majority or not) back up their computers using Time Machine or another type of external HD. Having ZFS would allow for faster, more secure (in that one does not lose data), backups. I do not see how a community loses out by adding more options.....

I am not saying ZFS should become the main file system, but allowing a user to choose really adds to the experience. Hopefully in the future Apple will add this type of functionality to HFS+ (or a new FS), but in the mean time, allowing the use of ZFS will greatly add to the user experience.]]>Oct 24th 2009 5:03PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:36PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
I want to be able to plug a hard drive into a computer, not worry about what its formatted as of have to buy software for each machine to get it to work fully.]]>Oct 24th 2009 2:45PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
There are some quirks, but I've got a NAS with storage available on the LAN via Samba/SMB/CIFS, accessed by Windows and Mac machines. It uses EXT3 filesystem since the "appliance" is a cheap little Linux device underneath the covers, but since the partitions are mounted over the network, I don't think it matters.]]>Oct 24th 2009 8:13PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:48PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 4:45PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 5:18PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/
Sorry, but open source doesn't mean it's free of licensing restrictions. There is a specific license attached to ZFS that prevents it from being just slapped in anywhere. GPL and CDDL are incompatible - see http://kerneltrap.org/node/8066
]]>Oct 25th 2009 11:07AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/24/zfs-open-source-project-abruptly-shuts-down-snow-leopard-weeps/Oct 24th 2009 2:53PM