Verizon responds to AT&T's Map For That lawsuit: 'the truth hurts'
By Nilay Patel 
posted Nov 16th 2009 9:28PM
posted Nov 16th 2009 9:28PM
Yeah. It's gonna be like that. Verizon goes on to argue that even AT&T concedes the maps are accurate, and that pulling any of the ads off the air without proof that they're misleading consumers would be unfair, and that at the very least both parties need time to investigate further. Honestly? We've read it over a couple times now and while the legal arguments are certainly interesting, it's hard not to get the impression that Verizon drafted this response with publication in mind -- check out this quote:AT&T did not file this lawsuit because Verizon's "There's A Map For That" advertisements are untrue; AT&T sued because Verizon's ads are true and the truth hurts.
See what we mean? Now, we still think there's some merit to the idea that Verizon's ads improperly conflate 3G coverage area with 3G service quality, but that's really not what AT&T's arguing -- hell, it's busy pimping EDGE. We'll see if these two can solve their differences and get back to work, but we've got the feeling this thing ain't over yet.In the final analysis, AT&T seeks emergency relief because Verizon's side-by-side, apples-to-apples comparison of its own 3G coverage with AT&T's confirms what the marketplace has been saying for months: AT&T failed to invest adequately in the necessary infrastructure to expand its 3G coverage to support its growth in smartphone business, and the usefulness of its service to smartphone users has suffered accordingly.
Update: Here's the PDF, in case you're interested.
BOOM ROASTED
Ouch! The truth hurts.
Huh? Self-ownage?
Dont it!
When your product stinks, no amount of advertizing will save your sorry arse AT&T.
Your network has more holes that swiss cheese,..
mmm cheese
Dayum straight!
amusing part is that apparently it isn't an apples to apples comparison due to the difference in tech, speeds etc. same word, different definitions. like say 'chips' to a Brit and getting french fries instead of a bag of Ruffles.
that said, I felt and still feel that a lawsuit isn't the way for ATT to fight back. it looks whiney. Fight back with facts. Assume that cell phone users are smart people and lay out for them what the term means for each company. Then let them decide whose definition they like.
uber pwnage
Wow, say it like it is. Enough of this crap and bull. Good job, Verizon. Now fix those cancellation fee's, and it's a date.
"you're gonna fit right in here! hahahahah hahah aha *THUD*"
Here is the proof:
AT&T Mobility - Coverage Map
http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=us&net=b3
AT&T 3G map look similar to the one in the verizon ad:
And to think: all this coul save been avoided if Verizon simply hadn't told Steve to shove off. All this time cursing my iPhone because I can't keep a call, and require MIFI to have a decent data connection...
It's all Verizon's fault.
Oooh, that calls for a shotgun burn:
http://www.entertonement.com/clips/nlptdplggj--Shotgun-Burn
And boom goes the dynamite.
lol, well AT&T should show those maps in their own commercial. Why not right?
AT&T's new slogan:
More whining in more cases
@ljm Most GSM phones are world phones nowadays and now a good chunk of Blackberries are dual CDMA/GSM. While only a small amount of us use our phones internationally, we are the people who use our phones A LOT and generate more income for those greedy bastards at AT&T or Verizon (formerly a Bell company/AT&T themselves).
I can't wait until the 4G systems start coming online and everyone is on the same equipment. Or so I've heard.
"AT&T has three times more active smartphones than verizon."
Dipshit, that's like saying LA has better roads because they have 3 times as many cars on them.
Go to bed, the grownups are talking.
Why should AT&T bother building up their 3G network this late in the game? They've obviously lost this round to Verizon, so why not focus everything into building up 4G, and try to beat Verizon to market?
screw verizon and at&t
ring ring ring banana phone! banana phone!
ROAM BOOSTED
Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? These are my BOOMSTICKS!
i dont know dudes. with the money ATT spent on lawyers... it shoulda spent on expanding the frickin network!!!
sometimes i feel im the only one with common senses.
PWNED!
So much hate.
So when is Verizon going to buy out ATT? :)
SHIT JUST GOT REAL!
Wow, thanks Anthony for telling us all what we already have discussed for months now and what common sense showed as well.
Gee wiz, we should all go to your link and buy websites from you now. Spare us the posts simply done to spam a link.
So yeah, AT&T, take a look at how much are you paying the legal team for this.
How many 3G tower upgrades could you build with that?
----"When I look at the wireless data map. I see Sprint offers the 4G, Verizon offers the 3G and AT&T offers the 2G"----
LoL Classic. But Also True
Your toasted Iceman :D
There you go, so much for the "there's a misinterpretation for that" image wherein AT&T tried to convince that their slow-poke edge should be included in the 3G. Truth really Hurts!
A misinterpretation or the truth? http://bit.ly/ATT-albis-vs-verizon
I wonder what kabuki show will AT&T play next?
More like Apples to Googles
It's not often I laugh at an Engadget news article comment, but this made me chuckle, and I thank you for that. Very clever...
its a CDMA vs GSM debate
Verizon's CDMA cannot offer international roaming, a large GSM advantage.
AT&T's GSM has world phones and better phone selection.
Tell that to my Storm with CDMA and Quad Band GSM.
Let's please not talk about the Storm too much though...
who cares on the technology (CDMA vs GSM)...it's about availability of a faster network here in the US.
How many people really need/use a global roaming phone? I think the fact that you do not see many world roaming phones for sale should answer the question....
When I look at the wireless data map. I see Sprint have the 4G, Verizon have the 3G and ATT have the 2G.
I bet at&t is really regretting telling Apple to reject Google Voice,
it's war baby
The whole roaming data argument is moot. AT&T's roaming data cost is so astronomically high that you can never use it. And even if you get a local SIM to use to minimize the costs, you have to have an unlocked phone to use it in and at that point, it's pretty much worth renting the phone as well because you'll get a deal on the combo. Really, claiming that AT&T's phones are useful around the world is a useless point not only because of the inhibitory costs, but also because Verizon has CDMA/GSM combination phones available. I say all this as an AT&T customer.
World's best phones are on GSM.
iPhone
Bold 9700
Nokie E71
Nuvifone
HTC Hero
SE Satio
Palm Pre
HTC HD2
SE Xperia
Verizon:
Storm - NO Wifi
Tour - NO Wifi
Samsung Omnia - No GPS
Droid
HTC touch diamond
Storm 2
@Travis: My Touch Pro2 lets me use CDMA and GSM....
Touch pro2 and Storm?
is that all you got?
@Travis:
Classic trolling. All of Verizon's smartphones going forward will have WIFI. The Storm 2 has Wifi, the DROID and Droid Eris have WIFI, the Touch Pro 2 has WIFI, the original Omnia has WIFI and GPS(Verizon software-disabled the GPS until somewhat recently but I think they have now unlocked it with a firmware update or said they are going to)... Verizon isn't the only CDMA carrier either. Sprint has their versions of some of the phones you listed as GSM, like the Pre and the Hero, plus they are first to offer the Pixi. The Tour may not have WIFI, but the upcoming Curve 8530 does and so does the rumored Gemini, which I think is basically a Tour with WIFI and a trackpad. Which phones are best is purely subjective anyway, so there is really no relevance to your comments. You should find something constructive to do instead of trolling Engadget.
@ Travis
The majority of the phones you listed under GSM are already on either Sprint or Verizon. The Hero is on Sprint, and the Droid Eris is Verizon's version of the Hero. The Hero isn't available on contract in the US on a GSM network, but even if you do buy one that is unlocked, you won't be able to use 3G.
The Pre was a phone that originally launched as a CDMA phone on Sprint and it is soon coming to Verizon. There hasn't been any talk about either T-Mobile or AT&T getting the phone in the near future, so it will still be a GSM phone only in Europe.
Verizon will be coming out with a Tour that has Wifi and a trackpad under the codename of Essex soon. It will be the equivalent of a CDMA 9700.
The Nuvifone? Really?
I really don't think that WinMo phones are the hottest thing going right now. Everyone is saying that it ruined the HD2 and a few other phones.
So, the GSM standard has the iPhone and something that runs Symbian. Personally, I'll stick with my Droid.
@NikAmi, true about CDMA/GSM phones operable in many places of the world but at what cost? $2 / min via international roaming? fuck that! might as well get an unlocked gsm phone and get a local cell plan there. U.S. probably has the most expensive cell phone bill anywhere, so you should be in for the better. Verizon wont and cant activate any unlocked phone you may have. my wife may need to travel outside u.s. so CDMA carrier w/ international roaming is really a no go, we stuck w/ crappy ATT so she could easily take out the sim card and put another in her unlocked phone and use a local cell plan there. sigh, if T-Mo's reception was any better or Verizon switch to GSM like some claimed I would hop out this shitty carrier like hopping of the friggin Titanic... mm good analogy *self pack on the back*
not true.
VZW now sells some dual CDMA/GSM "World" smartphones.
My VZW HTC TP2 has a SIM slot so I can use GSM for international roaming.
LOL truth hurts?
Carriers doesnt matter to me because GSM gets the first dibs on the best smartphones and you can run them only on AT&T network.
"Carriers doesnt matter to me because GSM gets the first dibs on the best smartphones and you can run them only on AT&T network."
What are you talking about? Where's my GSM Droid? Where's my android anything on att?
Sure I can import phones, but none of them work on att's 3g bands, which makes them basically useless.
Right now signs point to SE's X10 and the HD2 coming to tmobile, not att.
Please explain how any of these things show att getting the best smartphones first.
T-mobile is GSM too.
GSM Droid is Milestone ...its coming soon.
HTC HD2 and X10 is AT&T 3G compatible....goodluck running them on verizon!
ouch.......true............but ouch.......
oh snap att just got owned...twice
The truth is that AT&T was so fast to take an extra $10 for the iPhone data plan but yet the iPhone has to fall back on EDGE all the time..
Who cares how many data phones AT&T has, they need gas to go foo!
word: who cares if the offer triple the amount of smartphones, 2/3 of which suck, when the AT&T network is so terrible?
It's been on a couple of times now... I'm getting impatient for the dance-off.
Haha the truth hurts, that's the best response I've ever heard!
The problem is, AT&T is just going to continue wasting (my) money on lawyers and fighting it instead of doing the right thing and making the network better.
Agreed. For a brief second, I thought, "Oh gee, maybe they'll respond by making their infrastructure stronger and more reliable." Then I woke up.
wooooo it's on!
DAMN SON! Verizon layin' out a BEATDOWN!
I love it - VZW is investing millions on their defense, and AT&T is only making this worse. At the end of the day, these ads will end up being twice as effective, not because of Verizon, but because of AT&T - gotta love how that works.
The first and only thing AT&T should have done was STFU and wait till the ad campaign ended.
This is truth sir. I'm not sure what ATT was hoping to accomplish by making a baseless claim that made them look like a bunch of whiny bitches, but I can only assume that it was to bring some joy to a customer who is hopelessly stuck in an expensive two year contract for the worst cellphone service he's ever had.
It is working flawlessly, I am laughing my ass off.
Verizon, even though I disagree with that 350 fee, I will gladly bring my torch and pitchfork to at&t's doorstep.
at&t, you just got SERVED!
"oh no you di'int!"
$350 is ridiculous for an ETF but its a godsend compared to Telus' ETF, it would cost me ~$800 CAD (so about $763.50 USD) to cancel my (3yr) contract right now :'(
@ob22 What what whattttttttttttttt???????? What are the rules that do that to you? I knew the Canadian wireless industry was a club of rapists but not that bad.
I think Verizon are a bunch of assholes, but the $350 ETF is what it is. If you want a lower ETF, get ready to pay more for your device.
At&t's ETF is $175 and gets reduced by $5 each month you have service.
"But, but, but moooooommmm." Eric Cartmen.
gotta say being an iphone user and att customer since cingular im glad to see them poking fun at att i hope this start a fire under their butts and get better 3g coverage
I love you verizon!
Verizon is completely in the right here. Just what has AT&T been doing with the two-year cash windfall that has been the iPhone anyway? Bleaching its ass?
Weren't there reports that say that AT&T is losing money with the iPhone?
Doesn't AT&T give like $400 straight to Apple? Gotta love subsidies.
ass bleaching is expensive
Yeah, but, uhhh AT&T - your service sucks even when I'm someplace within the coverage map. "No, I'm not doing Tai Chi - I'm trying to find enough signal to send a friggen text message"
You just reminded me of that scene from RV where Robin Williams is standing on the top of a hill, trying to get a signal on his BlackBerry. :)
One thing I agree with AT&T ..Verizon's phone selection sucks!
Give us HSPA please!
That's why I left Verizon for Cingular in the first place! But then again there was no iPhone in 2006. When Verizon finally gets the iPhone (and we all know this will eventually happen) all this noise Verizon is making will leave AT&T in the dust especially if AT&T does nothing to fix this problem...They had how long to fix this and made how much money?!!
I seriously doubt the iPhone will ever get to Verizon. Seriously.
Even if iphone goes to Verizon...there will always be GSM-Worldwide-friendly-unlocked iphone....no AT&T loss there!
"Worldwide" use of a device is a small percentage of a small percentage. If it was a significant issue, Verizon would be in a world of hurt, numbers don't lie! I love my iPhone but hate both Verizon and AT&T for different reasons.
AT&T themselves said that iPhone exclusivity will "eventually" end and as much as I still loathe Verizon, if AT&T doesn't improve their service will reluctantly go back to Verizon... It's a shame that AT&T is preventing iPhone users the best possible user-experience because of their NETWORK!!
It seems Apple is responsible for not "allow users the best experience" by not producing a CDMA phone.
end of exclusivity does not mean VZW gets it, btw. There are other providers besides GTE/Bell Atlantic & SBC/BellSouth
Apple doesn't make a CDMA iPhone because Verizon turned it down initially (big mistake of course). That doesn't mean they can't make a CDMA iPhone. Remember, Apple approached Verizon first!
Phones selection on Verizon used to suck up until a few weeks ago. The ongoing Droid invasion has changed all that.
Motorola Droid and HTC Droid Eris are really quite good. And there are more Droid phones to come.
Rumored to be coming between black friday and Dec 15 is the HTC Droid Dragon/ Passion. It's kinda like the infamous HD2 except with Android 2.0!!!
I think most people don't quite get that the advertising is literal...they really do intend to bombard us with new Droid phones for quite some time now.
Everyone thought the whole droid naming convention was weird but it all starts to make sense when you realize they will have quite a few droid phones coming out in the next few months.
I don't think there will ever be a CDMA iPhone, unless maybe there is a CDMA/LTE hybrid iPhone. I doubt that would happen either. Exclusivity will eventually end between at&t and Apple, but they have not said when and that is still no guarantee that Verizon would start to offer an iPhone. If Verizon ever does get an iPhone to call its own, I am guessing that it will be an LTE iPhone(iPhone 4G seems like a probable name for it) and it will not be released until Verizon's LTE rollout is complete. It just doesn't make sense to make a CDMA iPhone this late in the game with LTE on the horizon. The fact that Verizon already confirmed they will get the Palm Pre in Q1 2010 makes it less likely that they would get the iPhone any time soon. By Q2 2010, all four major US wireless carriers will be offering 4/6 of the mobile operating systems. Even if the iPhone stays with at&t, these are good times for the consumer.
(sigh)
@ James
I'll make this simpler: there is no law requiring Apple to have an agreement with VZW before producing a CDMA phone.
They also need to invest in a new flagship phone instead of the old tired over-hyped iphone.
That may help their image. People should soon be wising up.... I hope.
Othrwise all their eggs are in one rickety old basket.
I think the general public and the media, as well as apple's market share, would disagree with your comment on apple's "over-hyped", "tired" phone.
HTC HD2, that phone is looking mighty slick right now and HD2 is rumored to have Android on Verizon. Snapdragon + Android should = Success.
exactly my point. It's only people who actually do a bit of research find out that the iphone is really an inferior phone to allot of phones on the market these days. People need to realize this and this too will come back to bite ATT in the ass along with the shoddy coverage.
LOL, AT&T fighting this has just worked in the complete opposite fashion...Fighting it has given the issue so much pub it is insane. If they didn't have the iphone they would basically be gasping for air just trying to stay in business.
BURN! Love it lol
[quote]AT&T failed to invest adequately in the necessary infrastructure to expand its 3G coverage to support its growth in smartphone business, and the usefulness of its service to smartphone users has suffered accordingly[/quote]
Boy Genius:
You should make note of the difference between the "air interface speed" and the aggregate amount of backhaul needed to support a fully utilized tower.
The fact is that all wireless carriers are faced with the "80/20 rule". 80% of their data traffic is handled by at most 20% of their towers - the bulk of which are in the highly populated areas where AT&T has their coverage.
Go out to the hinterlands and what you see are towers that have a far larger broadcast radius to economically cover more turf. By definition and physics - a person making use of these towers in sparsely populated areas and who happens to be at a distance from the tower is not going to receive the blazing 3G speeds because throughput rates attenuate as you stray from the tower.
Long story short - I have access to data services from the big 3 and the sad truth is - in the hinterlands all of them suck at one place or another.
I give credit to Verizon - the map is a hell of a marketing message and a hammer against big blue.
pwned. no other way around it.
They also need to invest in a new flagship phone instead of the old tired over-hyped iphone.
That may help their image. People should soon be wising up.... I hope.
Othrwise all their eggs are in one rickety old basket.
I apologize if you reposted by mistake, but please don't repeat yourself in the same thread. Nobody likes flooding/spamming.
AT&T needs to stop bitching and complaining for their own shortcomings. You don't see Microsoft filing lawsuits for those Mac vs. PC ads
Umm you know that microsoft owns about 25% of apple right...?
AT&T just got picked up by the Wahhhhhhhhhmbulance!
Hilarious that instead of working on making ETF's more affordable, instead of working to improve the quality of their devices, Verizon is, instead, doing nothing more than playing kid's games and 'I know you are but what am I?'
Verizon has been bleeding customers to AT&T for 2+ years, and, despite swallowing up Alltel, have AT&T nipping at their heels in terms of total subscribers, and are absolutely crushing them when it comes to average revenue per user (ARPU) the de facto stat when it comes to subscriber volume. Fact, for the most recent quarter (Q3) that just ended, Verizon trailed AT&T by nearly $10 in ARPU. Fact, Verizon's percentage of cancellations now is greater than AT&Ts. Fact, AT&T added nearly a million more subscribers than Verizon in the most recent quarter.
What does this mean? It means AT&T customers are choosing them over Verizon (in substantial quantity) and are happier customers as well (as evidenced by AT&T's lower rate of cancellation).
As far as these ads go, I don't know of anyone who honestly cares if they have 3G coverage in an area they never go to...if it works where you use the phone, then who cares if it doesn't work in bumsville? I sure as hell don't...why do you?
Don't confuse love of a phone with love of a carrier. My guess is those who "flocked" to AT&T did so for the iPhone, and cannot leave, because the iPhone is only on AT&T. When/if the exclusivity ends, let's see how many stay on AT&T (Disclaimer: I just left AT&T because I could not make a call in my apartment...in Dallas...where AT&T is king.)
ATT has more users and might have happier customers because they have the iPhone. The customers are oblivious to whats actually going with the network and don't give a shit about it, because they have their piece of shit iPhone.