http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/ Engadget Comments for http://www.engadget.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.engadget.com en-us Copyright 2012 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 9:47AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 11:06AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 1:49PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
Watch 4:12 the host looks just like the target]]>Nov 26th 2009 4:35AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 9:48AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 10:02AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
It means that it sucks. In Army testing the armor failed miserably, the rings fell off just from normal use, it's not multi-hit capable in the same general area (because the ring often falls after getting it). And there is no way to test for ring failures except for via X-ray since it's sealed.

It's also very heavy, about 20 lbs more then the Interceptor that it was tested against. To put that into comparison Interceptor weights 28lbs, and an additional 20lbs doubles the weight. The new IOTV is even lighter, with a better PC.

And finally it's expensive, about three times the price of a fully equipped Inteceptor vest.

All this for armor that doesn't provide any real benefits over E-SAPI plates, in the Interceptor or IOTV.]]>Nov 25th 2009 10:21AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 10:46AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 11:08AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
That's real nice. Or you can just get a standard set of armor using E-SAPI plates (or some of that new lighter stronger plates that the armor genies are working on) that weighs less, and you don't have to worry about ring failure. This isn't a video game, when you are hit with body armor you know it, it feels like a hard punch in the chest (or so I'm told).

This might have potential for vehicles, but for personal body armor, it's another unneeded piece of electronics that you have to feed batteries, and likely break.]]>Nov 25th 2009 11:20AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Actually, the conditions of the Army Testing are under review, and Pinnacle Armor is suing the governing body that grants survivability ratings.

Dragon Skin has passed independent, academic, and testing by the CIA, Secret Service, and Aberdeen Testing Grounds. The Army is the only one that say's it's "faulty." Research of units 5.7+ years old and they maintained their durability.

Also, where are you getting your 20lbs+ heavier figure? These systems are designed to match or better current systems.]]>Nov 25th 2009 1:12PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
The lawsuit is about the NIJ just using the Army's test to decertify the SOV-2000, rather then doing the testing on their own. And suing the American way, don't improve your product, sue your critics into oblivion.

APG is the report that I am talking about, the APG rated the armor very poorly in their report. And they weren't the only ones each service has had issues with Dragonskin including the USAF (over half the vests delivered to the OSI units were defective) and the USN. And they also sued the USAF, and lost.

Designed to match doesn't equal lighter. The number is a couple of years old (it's been a while since this topic has come up), but it's certainly believable. Without getting into the specific, with out side armor Dragonskin weights 17lbs, a basic PC with SAPI plates is around 10lbs. You start adding more protection, like side plates, et al, every time the Interceptor will weigh less, and give about the same level of coverage.

The whole armor debate was media generated hype for the most part. Several less well funded units did lack rifle plates and carriers to go with their PASGT, but for the most part units that weren't issued Interceptor were issued those plates and carriers. Yes those PCs sucked compared to Interceptor, and Interceptor sucks compared to some of the rigs on the market, but they suck in comfort, not in protection.

These days I doubt that there is a single unit that doesn't have Interceptor or the (newer) IOTV.]]>Nov 25th 2009 1:53PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 4:44PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 8:37PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/By the way. On their website even the heaviest body armor, the SOV-3000 is 17.2 lbs. So try 10 pounds less, not 20 more.]]>Nov 25th 2009 9:50PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
Really:
"The SOV-3000™ Level IV, with our large standard tactical front and back panel configuration weighs approximately 17.2 lbs. and varies depending on the level of coverage needed."

Large is the vest size (ie the size of shirt you wear). Tactical just means that it goes in the MOLLE covered vest, it makes no mention of plate size. But based on their website, the only way you can reach the 17.2lb weight is with their smallest plate size, which is smaller then the E-SAPI used in Interceptor. Once you start adding coverage to get the same as Interceptor you get the 48lb number.

They also make smaller thinner rifle plates, and the new IOTV weighs almost 4 lbs less then Interceptor without giving up coverage. So now it's 48lbs to 24lbs.]]>Nov 26th 2009 4:55AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 9:48AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 9:49AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/ My thoughts exactly.]]>Nov 25th 2009 12:07PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 9:51AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 1:46PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
You can have it made by master wade in denerium, just give him 3 drake scales first, than a dragon scale.

(anyone that has played DA:O should get that)]]>Nov 25th 2009 7:01PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 9:58AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 10:01AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nah I'm looking for the console, ~ doesn't seem to be working. Then I just need to figure out the god mode and no clipping commands.]]>Nov 25th 2009 11:23AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 10:03AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 11:37AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
If it ain't broke...]]>Nov 25th 2009 12:07PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 10:20AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
Body armor is not designed to protect the arms, it designed to protect the core of your body where all the important bits are (heart, lungs, et al).

If you want absolute protection you would be walking around like some medieval knight in full plate armor (ie very slowly). And the enemy would just pull out something that can defeat your armor.

Class IV armor (what DS, IOTV, and the Interceptor are rated at) is supposed to be the best mix of protection, and weight for modern soldiers.]]>Nov 25th 2009 10:24AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
Except dragonskin isn't class IV, hell it isn't anything.

It had a class III rating but the NIJ pulled it.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/2007/NIJ07057.htm]]>Nov 25th 2009 10:31AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
That is the concealable model aimed at the LE market, the military model was never submitted to the NIJ for testing, but Pinnacle tested it to level IV.

I'm not a fan of Dragonskin, it has HUGE issues that must be addressed before anyone should use it. And even after that has been dealt with there is still the weight issue, namely that it weights nearly twice as much as Interceptor and IOTV.]]>Nov 25th 2009 10:35AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 10:21AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Regards,
Dan]]>Nov 25th 2009 10:26AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
If you truly are a US Army Ballistic Expert then you should have access to the report done by the US Army testers. The Dragonskin armor failed miserably. Based on testing most Dragonskin failed during simulated field conditions. And they failed in such a way that left the wearer unprotected.

Dragonskin is a good idea, but a horrible implementation. And even if it didn't have the glue failure, is the extra 20lbs worth the benefits? IMO no, particularly when you have SEALs, and SFs removing their armor completely in Afghanistan during some missions.]]>Nov 25th 2009 10:32AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/PPGMD is correct. Glue failures made this a disaster, mainly in theaters that routinely reach ambient temps above 90. Add that to the fact that you tend to do a lot of moving around and the ceramic plates would just fall out of place, and standard kevlar just wont stop a 7.62 round. This is just another sinkhole for DARPA funds.]]>Nov 25th 2009 10:48AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
I'll also go ahead and qualify that statement with the fact that that you are correct in that it has great potential, if they could make this stable and idot-proof.]]>Nov 25th 2009 10:53AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
I'm not an expert, but I know at least from this that you're going off old outdated reports. They stopped using glue a long time ago, everything is sewn now or something.

Hmm... and their website says standard models weigh between 16 and 17 lbs...]]>Nov 25th 2009 11:02AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
Old and outdated implies that it has been tested again. Considering the amount of press Pinnacle likes to push, it would have been all over the Mil and LE news sources. As far as a long time ago, I again would like to see some sort of link on them sewing the rings.

And the weight you quote is for the I would like to see how they come to that number, because the weights I have seen are based on comparable coverage (ie Interceptor with all the extra armor).]]>Nov 25th 2009 11:14AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
I retort to your claims with this article on defesereview:

http://www.defensereview.com/pinnacle-armor-dragon-skin-vs-interceptor-body-armor-continued/

It appears the military has a direct financial interest in keeping dragon skin vests out.]]>Nov 25th 2009 3:18PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
Ah Defense Review, the national Enquirer of tactical websites. Gossip, innuendo, and press releases.]]>Nov 25th 2009 3:55PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Regards,
Dan]]>Nov 25th 2009 11:03AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
There are unclassified versions of it circling around the military communities. But the summary of it is, the SOV-3000 sucks, stick with E-SAPI.]]>Nov 25th 2009 11:22AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 11:10AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
Maybe we do need to have soldiers killed to keep selling those jackets haha]]>Nov 25th 2009 11:16AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Nov 25th 2009 11:24AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
Too add on to your comment those areas don't contain vital organs. Body armor is designed to protect the core trunk where the important parts are, like the heart, and lungs. The extremities don't present enough risk of death to warrant the weight, and loss of mobility to cover the extremities.

And the head is already protected by the helmet.]]>Nov 25th 2009 11:29AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/Initially in iraq/afghanistan they also had just the vital organs (after armor finally arrived that is), now they are covered all over, even have shoulder and ankle flaps, because in battle the bullets/fragments don't neatly line up on the center and can go though your side or shoulder into your body, and can really fuck you up without hitting the primary organs too.
]]>Nov 25th 2009 1:43PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
Vote_awp

nominate de_dust2

Thats all I have to contribute here..
]]>Nov 25th 2009 11:28AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/25/dragon-skin-body-armor-gains-piezoelectric-sensors-keeps-bullet/
If you get shot and die while wearing this stuff, the US Government will not pay your family your death benefit...that's how serious they are about our soldiers NOT using this stuff.

It goes beyond ring failure, apparently the composites/binders/adhesives in use have a very discrete shelf life that, when exceed, reduces the armor's ability to stop projectiles significantly.

They're issuing ceramic composites made by a company called Point Blank, I forget the exact model #, made up the road from me here in Florida.

(Bro-in-law is a Law Enforcement Armorer/Gunsmith/Cop and talks endlessly about the business)

]]>Nov 25th 2009 12:22PM