http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/ Engadget Comments for TiVo's $200m damages award in EchoStar case affirmed, EchoStar to appeal (again) http://www.engadget.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.engadget.com en-us Copyright 2012 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
Terrible...but mostly because people watch Idol.]]>Mar 4th 2010 1:01PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 3:58PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 1:09PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 1:27PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 2:50PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/The courts say Tivo can have them shut off, but it's up to Dish to beg Tivo for a "deal".

If you want to get mad, get mad at Dish for allowing it to get this far. DirecTV has made deals with Tivo. Dish is defiant and would, seemingly, rather you not have a DVR than pay for the license. That's on them. Not Tivo.]]>Mar 4th 2010 5:12PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
Being stupidly stubborn isn't always the best way to get on in the world. ]]>Mar 5th 2010 2:52AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 1:46PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 2:51PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 1:56PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 2:01PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 2:05PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 2:27PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 3:43PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
When you say en banc is rare, what does that mean-- 1 in 1000, 1 in 10? Also, looks like the Federal Court has 16 judges in the circuit, but some articles reference a hearing with the full 11-judge panel. Are they now adopting 9th circuit procedures and having en banc review with less than a full court? Would the 3 judges be included if that were the case? And in en banc, would DISH need a 9-7 decision to win?

Just trying to get a sense of what the likelihoods are going forward. I own way too much TiVo, and I want to be as well educated as possible. Seems to me right now DISH is clinging to a sliver of hope, and if en banc is denied then they will have to write a blank check to TiVo or piss off their best customers for eternity. Seems like it's crazy not to settle now before the last remaining doubt about the case is removed, but Ergen has ignored everyone urging him to settle for years, so who knows what they'll do.

Looking forward to seeing each of your complete takes on this soon. Thanks!]]>Mar 4th 2010 3:57PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2010/02/19/submarine-patents-alive-and-well-tivo-patents-dvr-scheduling/id=9168/]]>Mar 4th 2010 4:28PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 5th 2010 3:08AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
Building a better Tivo may cause me to buy another Tivo.]]>Mar 4th 2010 2:13PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 2:55PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
I agree 100% with orev. Patent laws are exactly for companies like TiVo who put time and energy, and actually offer a product that uses their own patents. They are not a patent troll in any sense. ]]>Mar 4th 2010 5:06PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
Anyways, TiVo should be ashamed of themselves for getting a bogus patent that patents obvious technology, and becoming a bunch of moral-lacking patent trolls instead of actually innovating, all while stifling the innovation of others.

There is no way I could buy another TiVo and have a clear conscience with this garbage. Maybe a Dish 722 will replace my Series 2. :) That would serve them right.

It's sad that our broken patent system sided with TiVo, Echostar is 100% in the right here. I hope Echostar takes any and all steps necessary to screw over TiVo as much as they possibly can.]]>Mar 4th 2010 2:15PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
You may think it's obvious because you no doubt grew up with a DVR. That's the way all brilliant inventions work -- after the fact they seem obvious, but when they did it in 1998 it was a revolution.

You couldn't be more wrong on this one]]>Mar 4th 2010 2:59PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
If they were making innovative products and making good partnerships, they wouldn't need to go around suing companies in this desperate attempt to stay afloat.

This shows how completely broken the patent system is.

The functionality of recording to a hard drive was obvious, it was just that TiVo was the first company to put the pieces together.

TiVo didn't invent anything. They wrote a slick UI to go over Linux, which was already there. Their hardware was nothing new, the Series 1 is just a custom motherboard combining existing MPEG-2 encoders and decoders with an existing PowerPC processor, and an existing IDE/ATAPI hard drive interface with a standard computer hard drive. Sense a pattern? TiVo is NOTHING NEW. It was just a front-end on top of a bunch of other bits of hardware that they bought off-the-shelf.

I grew up with tape, but the concept of a DVR was quite obvious, it just took time for the hardware to get there. Much in the same way, the concept that computers will be using all SSDs in the future is obvious now, the hardware just hasn't gotten cheap enough.

TiVo should be ashamed of themselves for this garbage, and I am never going to buy another TiVo DVR because of it. It's painful to see a company I used to love engaging in slimy, unethical behavior to extort money out of a much bigger company who actually has a profitable business. Go make some innovative DVRs, TiVo, and stop whining and suing!!!

Long live Echostar! Oh yeah, and now I actually have to side with AT&T and Verizon on this one, usually I hate them, but boy are they on the good side here.]]>Mar 4th 2010 4:26PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
You need to look up the history of this case, man.

"If they were making innovative products and making good partnerships, they wouldn't need to go around suing companies in this desperate attempt to stay afloat."

This is EXACTLY what they did with Echostar. Seriously, you need to look this case up. ]]>Mar 4th 2010 5:09PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 5:12PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
Tivo is not a patent troll, as described above. They obtained a patent and thus are entitled to a limited monopoly, and they should protect that. You would do the same if it was your patent.

As to obviousness, you appear to be using hindsight analysis. Many very lucrative inventions, in hindsight, look obvious. The pizza protector. The coffee cup protector. The highway lane reflector. If it was so darn obvious, why had not many other companies arrived at the same technology? This is a strong secondary consideration in favor of patentability. Have you reviewed the file wrapper? Have you studied the prior art available at the time the invention was made, and cited by the examining authority? I doubt it, particularly based on your comments.

Get a law degree specializing in patent law. Then take the patent bar. Then review the file wrapper and prior art in this and related cases. Then come back and make comments based on knowledge of patent law, not ignorance.

]]>Mar 4th 2010 6:37PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
BUZZZITT! Wrong answer Unverified. Echostar had all the TiVo IP in house to see if they wanted to use it or not, copied everything and told TiVo they didn't want to use any of it. They started using it anyway and that's why things are where they are now.

It would be like GM getting all the IP from Tesla, not licensing anything and building cars that obviously used Tesla IP.

Echostar is the bad guy here. They got caught, found guilty and still don't want to pay up.]]>Mar 4th 2010 6:43PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
The concept of a DVR is quite simple, you dump video onto a disk and suck it back out. It's just a non-linear version of a VCR.

I can just about guarantee some professional-level sports replay machine did the exact same thing before TiVo did, just because it cost hundreds of thousands of dollars doesn't make it right to patent the use of video on a hard drive in the home.

What's next, someone is going to come forward with a patent for using one file on a PC while downloading another? Should Apple have to pay royalties to Sony because Sony made the first Walkman that allowed you to listen to music and walk down the street at the same time?

Did someone in the '70s or '80s get a patent on a double-level table because you could put a VCR on each level, and play one back while the other is recording a show?

This patent is ridiculous, and SHAME ON TIVO for sneaking crap like this through the US patent system. They should innovate, instead of making overpriced, undesirable products and suing other companies. This whole thing really makes me want a 722 that much more...

Now because they have such horrible relations with Echostar, they probably have screwed themselves out of licensing SlingMedia technology, which would allow them to offer true placeshifting, and an integrated experience. Nor could they probably make a dual-room DVR using agile modulation, because Echostar would find a way to sue them for that, just to make them take their own medicine. In the most simplest sense, they screwed themselves out of possibly licensing the TiVo software to Echostar.

What proves that they are becoming patent trolls, instead of making an actual product is that their stock responds to this crap, when for a real company who actually makes good products, it would reflect what products they are making and selling...]]>Mar 4th 2010 9:07PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
"I can just about guarantee some professional-level sports replay machine did the exact same thing before TiVo did, just because it cost hundreds of thousands of dollars doesn't make it right to patent the use of video on a hard drive in the home."

I'm sure that Echostar's legal team would be eternally grateful if you would kindly provide them with this apparently readily available art to invalidate the TiVo patent. Strange, though, that this elusive piece of art has not been revealed, despite years of patent prosecution and even more years of patent litigation.

"What proves that they are becoming patent trolls, instead of making an actual product is that their stock responds to this crap, when for a real company who actually makes good products, it would reflect what products they are making and selling..."

Again, for your own sake, learn patent law (even just the basics?) and learn what a patent troll is. Tivo prosecuted their OWN patent and sells a product. They are not even close to a patent troll. How many times must this be said to get it through even your non-patent savvy head?]]>Mar 5th 2010 10:25AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
Secondly, I said that they are turning into a patent troll, not that they are one. They still sell a product, but that makes their slimy and disgusting behavior is this case only slightly less reprehensible.]]>Mar 5th 2010 1:39PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
You sound like you will never see any patent claim as valid, since they will all be "obvious" in hindsight and you seem to believe that it abusive for patent holders to protect their patents. In light of this, I challenge you to give a few examples of existing patents that you believe were legitimately given.]]>Mar 5th 2010 3:33PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
I don't generally follow patents, so I don't know about legitimate examples, but I am sure there are some real products out there that are patented.

I think it is abusive if a company is trying to defend a junk patent, which is the case here.]]>Mar 6th 2010 3:58PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 2:48PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
Second, all these products use the same broadcom processors. These processors have built in dvr functionality that lends itself to this usage. Meaning that anyone using them is drawn in to the same sort of dvr scheme that tivo has patented just from the basis of using the same built in hardware functionality, they end up designing the software the same way to suit it. Now broadcom is not liable for this, only the company that releases a product to market based on this is liable.

So just saying that 'tivo left a dvr, the code must be stolen', is leaving a huge gap in knowledge about how these boxes work, and just coding for an embedded system in general.]]>Mar 4th 2010 3:16PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/TiVo's patent has been reconsidered twice by the US Patent and Trademark Office and upheld each time. The facts have been determined by the courts that Echostar infringed on TiVo's patent.]]>Mar 4th 2010 4:23PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
The reason to defend them though is the ability to design a work around the patent. As one of the judges even stated, it appears that the design workaround removed the main infringing section of tivo's patent, and thats why he dissented from the other judges, pretty much urging echostar to push forward with an appeal. Here's the article with the dissenting judges opinion:
http://www.betanews.com/article/Appeals-court-rules-redesigned-EchoStar-box-still-infringes-on-TiVos-DVR/1267725110]]>Mar 4th 2010 5:08PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
Did you read that article at all? The dissenting judge did NOT say the workaround removed the infringing section. He said that he thought Echostar should not be held liable for contempt simply because it was next to impossible for them to do what the court originally ordered. He went on to say that the workaround should be filed in an entirely new lawsuit at this point. Which could also mean another 200-300m for TiVo AGAIN.

BTW, that was only one out of three judges, the other two stood firm.]]>Mar 4th 2010 5:18PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 5:42PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
TiVo did not use Broadcom until Series 2, the original TiVo used 2 processors, one made by Sony for encoding, and one made by IBM for decoding.]]>Mar 4th 2010 5:59PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 6:36PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Amazingly, even though HP and Apple each have extensive patent portfolios, they can't steal each other's patented technologies, despite the use of many of the same processors.]]>Mar 4th 2010 9:00PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 4th 2010 8:38PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 5th 2010 2:25AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 5th 2010 3:14AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/
Not sure why you think existing Dish customers have nothing to worry about. It appears that many people think Dish may in fact be forced to disable a bunch of their existing DVRs as a result of this ruling. See for example:

http://www.multichannel.com/article/449679-Analyst_Dish_May_Have_To_Shut_Down_8M_DVRs_After_TiVo_Legal_Loss.php

I'm not saying he's right, I'm just saying it ain't obvious Dish's customers are safe...]]>Mar 5th 2010 3:16AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 5th 2010 3:51AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 5th 2010 7:59AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/tivos-200m-damages-award-in-echostar-case-affirmed/Mar 10th 2010 4:29AM