Switched On: Thumbs up, thumbs down at TiVo Premiere
By Ross Rubin 
posted March 11th 2010 5:30PM
posted March 11th 2010 5:30PM
Each week Ross Rubin contributes Switched On, a column about consumer technology.
TiVo's announcement of TiVo Premiere represents the most significant user interface overhaul for the device in years. Based on Adobe Flash and optimized for the high-definition screens that are likely to be paired with CableCARD programming, the new user interface blends together live, recorded, and broadband content. That presentation is more akin to what we've seen from Windows Media Center, and less like TiVo's Series3 that segmented programming sources by type. TiVo has also beefed up its search capability, bringing it up to par with that of its only significant retail DVR competitor, Digeo's Moxi.
The new interaction widens the user experience gap between TiVo and your average cable or satellite DVR, and TiVo has two other features that set it apart. First, no doubt reacting to the Moxi competition, TiVo long ago reinstated its lifetime service option that was so popular in the product's early years. However, those who have opted for this plan through TiVo's major platform upgrades over the years have endured more lifetime sentences than many a felon.
Second, TiVo remains relatively open, and – while the tools are primitive and the operation is glacial – it provides one of the few ways nontechnical consumers have to bring their DVR recordings to computers or portable devices via TiVoToGo. Improvements in TiVo Premiere promise to speed up the show transfer process somewhat, although TiVo still uses the inefficient MPEG-2 format. One could even argue that the cloud hanging over tru2way – the stagnant successor to the CableCARD standard used by TiVo – plays in the company's favor. At this point, TiVo isn't using "old" digital cable connectivity technology, it's using essentially the only digital cable technology.
And that is part of why TiVo Premiere is the Avatar of DVRs: engaging to look at but fundamentally a story we've already heard. First, nothing has changed in terms of TiVo's pricing structure: there's a relatively large upfront cost combined with recurring monthly fees or a device lifetime subscription fee that is a significant percentage of the total device price. In contrast, most cable companies give away their DVRs, and we've seen from the cell phone industry how popular subsidized hardware is. Plus, if the hard drive fails – and it is relatively prone to fail – the cable company will replace it.
And other alternatives to TiVo have blossomed since it released the Series3. These include cable companies offering more on-demand and free on-demand content, which stands to lower costs and remove the vulnerability of the local hard disk, remote DVR scheduling, the rise of Hulu and other sites as a way to catch up on some popular shows on the PC, and the integration of broadband services such as Netflix and Amazon Video on Demand into inexpensive, subscription-free Blu-ray players and TVs.
In positioning its ability to tune live cable content, record shows, and access an even expanded set of Internet services, TiVo has referred to the Premiere as "the one box." But as it struggles to fight against the same fundamental challenges that have relegated it to a small portion of the DVR market, TiVo's predominant "one box" remains the one it can't break out of.
Ross Rubin is executive director of industry analysis for consumer technology at market research and analysis firm The NPD Group. Views expressed in Switched On are his own.
The new interaction widens the user experience gap between TiVo and your average cable or satellite DVR, and TiVo has two other features that set it apart. First, no doubt reacting to the Moxi competition, TiVo long ago reinstated its lifetime service option that was so popular in the product's early years. However, those who have opted for this plan through TiVo's major platform upgrades over the years have endured more lifetime sentences than many a felon.
Second, TiVo remains relatively open, and – while the tools are primitive and the operation is glacial – it provides one of the few ways nontechnical consumers have to bring their DVR recordings to computers or portable devices via TiVoToGo. Improvements in TiVo Premiere promise to speed up the show transfer process somewhat, although TiVo still uses the inefficient MPEG-2 format. One could even argue that the cloud hanging over tru2way – the stagnant successor to the CableCARD standard used by TiVo – plays in the company's favor. At this point, TiVo isn't using "old" digital cable connectivity technology, it's using essentially the only digital cable technology.
TiVo Premiere is the Avatar of DVRs: engaging to look at but fundamentally a story we've already heard. |
And that is part of why TiVo Premiere is the Avatar of DVRs: engaging to look at but fundamentally a story we've already heard. First, nothing has changed in terms of TiVo's pricing structure: there's a relatively large upfront cost combined with recurring monthly fees or a device lifetime subscription fee that is a significant percentage of the total device price. In contrast, most cable companies give away their DVRs, and we've seen from the cell phone industry how popular subsidized hardware is. Plus, if the hard drive fails – and it is relatively prone to fail – the cable company will replace it.
And other alternatives to TiVo have blossomed since it released the Series3. These include cable companies offering more on-demand and free on-demand content, which stands to lower costs and remove the vulnerability of the local hard disk, remote DVR scheduling, the rise of Hulu and other sites as a way to catch up on some popular shows on the PC, and the integration of broadband services such as Netflix and Amazon Video on Demand into inexpensive, subscription-free Blu-ray players and TVs.
In positioning its ability to tune live cable content, record shows, and access an even expanded set of Internet services, TiVo has referred to the Premiere as "the one box." But as it struggles to fight against the same fundamental challenges that have relegated it to a small portion of the DVR market, TiVo's predominant "one box" remains the one it can't break out of.
Ross Rubin is executive director of industry analysis for consumer technology at market research and analysis firm The NPD Group. Views expressed in Switched On are his own.
The cable cos fought CableCard to the bitter end, but it turned out to be their strongest tool against TiVo. It is such a monstrous pain in the ass to get set up that the overwhelming majority of consumers will just not bother and go straight for the cable co box.
@DTJ
It wasn't a big pain for me. I called the cable company. They came out and installed it. And i was done. Works great, but there isn't any VOD, unless you call the Netflix and Amazon thing as being VOD, which i don't.
Tivo's Series 4 is a minor upgrade that should have been done a couple years ago for the HD crowd. The interface is still the bubble blue that went out of style about 4 years ago. They need to modernize the interface, not rearrange it and then surround it with ads, which is what those graphics are.
And the peanut keyboard should be standard and the bluetooth built in. Bluetooth should be standard on all A/V electronics btw.
@DTJ
Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't. I've had TiVo on two cable cos and fios. On fios it was easy (and they don't have SDV to complicate it further), but the cable set up wa a hassle. Missing channels, cards not registered correctly. The very fact that I had to know what a cablecard is makes it a less attractive option for the average Joe.
@DTJ
Tivo should let EchoStar buy them, take the payday and go away already.
@DTJ No, the reason TiVo lost to the cable DVRs is because the cable cos only charged $10/mo extra to upgrade to a DVR box, while TiVo sold you the box for hundreds and had a $13/mo fee on top of that. It can have the nicest experience ever and be incredible, but to have to pay out for my own equipment and then pay more per month than the cable co just doesn't make sense.
@wicketr I'm glad that your install went well. The fact is that a lot of them don't. Lots of people have cable installers not show up, or show up with broken cards, or only single stream cards, or they've never seen a Tivo before, or they make ONE mistake in reading the long string of digits carelessly over the phone, OR ... etc. I've had two installs and both of them were eventually successful, but one of them took like four hours. Comcast btw.
@DTJ
Seriously it doesn't have to be, but I had one of the horror stories, had to have the cable guy come back the next day after messing with it for like 4 hours. On day 2 I got a different guy who messed with it for about 15 minutes then realized they had a data filter on my line, he went downstairs and removed it and it worked like a charm. Maybe the cable companies just make it as hard to persuade people towards cable boxes. The first guy I had come just bitched about TiVo for the 4 hours too, telling me this was their problem and how I was going to have to call up their support.
@ArcSyn i dont know what cable company you have but the days of a $10/month DVR are long gone for me. My DVR w/ comcast was setting me back $21/month.
@ArcSyn
You may want to check your cable bill more closely. Most cable companies charge at least $18/mo to rent a HD DVR. If you consider a 3 year time frame, the total cost of Tivo (purchase + service) can be less than the cost of renting. And of course Tivo is a better DVR.
It was easy for me too - on FIOS. The Tivo makes it almost idiot proof for the installers.
@harley3k
The cable cos have some pretty impressive idiots. Still, my point is that it's a LOT easier to have the cable co box vs getting a TiVo set up. Throw SDV in the mix and it's even worse.
I'm a long time mythtv user trying to decide between moxi and Tivo for a replacement. I love my mythtv, but in order to keep it working, I have it hooked to 2 cable boxes via firewire at $15/month each, plus it doesn't truly replace the cablebox, so that is another $15 a month. It obviously is too expensive with the lack of cable-card tuners.
So I'm not trying to decide between a Tivo Premier XL and a Moxi 3 tuner w/ mate.
The TiVo has a better interface and reviews, but I would lose the ability to watch liveTV in a second room. Netflix is nice, but my dvd player does that. Pandora is nice, but if I refactor my mythtv as a overpowered xbmc box, then I already have that.
The moxi has generally poorer reviews, but has a 3rd tuner and would let me watch liveTV in a different room and seemingly is getting regular updates. Does anybody here have a moxi and love or hate it?
@Fritz Honestly Fritz, since you're quite obviously comfortable with computers and ok with DIY solutions, I'd recommend going to a Windows Media Center solution. Just get a $199-299 nettop with ion (those should be around that price now right?) and a decent external tuner. Then as space on the hard drive starts to fill up, get an HP home server. Basically the same cost as Tivo HD plus lifetime service and it runs blocks around it.
@nickyP Obviously he needs digital cable or he would have added a clear/QAM tuner to his MythTV setup. First of course there aren't currently ANY cablecard tuners available. The four tuner Ceton card is supposed to ship any minute now. Course (a) its going to cost like $500, and (b) its going to be a PCIe card so it won't fit in that case you mention above. As of right now there aren't any plans I'm aware of by anybody to build external tuners, so those little media center boxes you talk about aren't any use for people who need digital cable. And at least in Comcast's footprint (the biggest cable co in the US), that's virtually everybody as they're running around switching off the clear QAM stuff to free up space for more digital HD channels...
@Fritz
I have been using the Moxi w/ Mate for over 4 months now and love it. I have used Tivo and also have a Sony HD-DVR. I occasionally use Media Center with my Xbox as an extender. The Moxi has been the best solution for my needs. Honestly, I could never understand the poor reviews the Moxi has received. The Moxi has excellent customer service and addressed many of the negatives with quarterly updates. I bought it primarily because it supported channel mapping and streaming to the Mate. DLNA, triple tuners, and live streaming are all added benefits of the Moxi that TiVo still hasn't implemented.
@nickyP
MCE doesn't get rid of the cablecard problem. PC cablecards are pretty much vaporware at this point. This means that you're still looking at Firewire or the Hauppauge 1212. He would be better off keeping his currently solution. Sage might be marginally better.
MCE is also not unique in it's ability to take advantage of cheap ION boxes.
@snacky
If the Moxi has seamless multi-room viewing then go for it. That's a killer feature that MythTV has that Tivo seems unwilling to replicate.
If you were satisfied with what Tivo has to offer you never would have bothered with another alternative. So going back to Tivo probably doesn't make much sense.
@Fritz
Thanks for the replies. I probably am getting a moxi, I'm just gonna wait for some real Tivo Premiere reviews first. Of course, the ideal would be that hd homerun comes out with that dual-tuner cable-card unit they were talking about at CES, but I'm not holding my breath.
@Fritz
I just got the 2 tuner Moxi and ditched my cable company (Time Warner's) DVR. I love the moxi so much I sent it back and got the 3 tuner and moxi mate. (You can only get the 3 tuners with the bundle until they run out of 2 tuners).
Moxi is amazing. Tivo is total crap if only because they add advertisements within the menus and over your fast forwarding, and charge you monthly for the 'feature.'
With a Harmony remote I have the skip forward button hit a macro with the '3 min' skip and then the fast forward button in succession so you're through commercials within 2 seconds. The customer service is top notch, and take feature requests and they constantly update the software. I'm on the second firmware since I bought it like 2 months ago. The only thing is the internet content isn't so great, it requires a computer (windows) server which I haven't hooked up. Also the DLNA streaming won't fast forward which is obnoxious considering the PS3 does all sorts of awesome DLNA streaming tricks no problem. So I just use the PS3.
I love TiVo, but I have a few too many issues with it.
1.) The lifetime fee for sign up is only the lifetime of the box(waste of money) You only get 90 days warranty with them so if it breaks after that time you've got a $600 brick.
2.) You still have to pay the cable company something a month just to use a cable card.
3.) The file transfer rate is painfully slow.
4.) If TiVo firmware bricks your box its your fault not their's. You dont think so TiVo brick my box and they wanted to charge me for them to repair my box.
5.) No built in Wi-Fi
@Speed1978
Good point. If a cable co box bricks, they'll send you a new one. If your TiVo bricks after 90 days, bye bye. The monthly fee should include a warranty as long as you subscribe.
I have a Tivo HD and I love it, works great for my on FIOS. I use it to stream Netflix, and if for some reason a show doesn't tape right (which is more likely due to live programming running over than the Tivo's fault) I rent it on Amazon and load it on my Tivo.
That being said, I really don't have any interest in upgrading to the new Tivo at the moment. It doesn't seem to do a lot that I can't do right now.
Had Tivo figured out a way to let me get my VOD from FIOS with the new system.. well, I'd have it day one. I feel like I'm paying for stuff on FIOS I can't use with the lack of being able to get VOD on my Tivo. Not to mention I pay $8.95 per cablecard per month (so 2), plus the Tivo monthly fee.. plus buying the Tivo in the first place..
Luckily the Tivo HD is better for me than the FIOS box, or I'd switch. Wish this Tivo Premiere was a bigger upgrade than it is :/
@jglonek Wow, $8.95/mo? Just for a cablecard? I pay $3.50/mo for each of my two multistream cards from Comcast, and I thought I was on the high end. Course they hit with with other charges for HDTV and so forth, but I'd be paying those whether I had any cable cards or not, but then there's no way to get HD without cable card around here, so... Not sure what you're including.
Anyway, also a relatively satisfied Tivo customer, with two Tivo HD units with upgraded hard drives care of weaknees. The main complaint about them is probably the transfer rate, which even of a MoCA connection is not quite enough to support real-time HD transfers. I'm sure that's the anemic Tivo at fault. Perhaps the Premier would solve that, will have to wait until I see some reviews. Still, with so few improvements (no more tuners, no VOD, no Hulu, no streaming, etc) and lots of disadvantages to switching (having to manually reprogram all my Season Passes for example), I can't imagine I'll bother switching.
@Fanfoot
I actually just checked my bill again and the cards are $3.99 a piece, so $7.98 total a month for both. Not sure why I was thinking that was just for one.
I actually have an external drive hooked up to my Tivo HD as well, and that was the main disadvantage I saw of switching to a FIOS box - there's no way I could fit everything on the drive it includes. Maybe it can be modded to have a bigger drive? I'm not sure, I didn't look into it.
The wireless G for the Tivo is pretty weak, though, that's for sure. I tried to stream, well, Cats & Dogs from Tivo a few weeks ago in HD. It stuttered every few minutes. I ended up buying one of those Netgear Powerline Ethernet adapters and set that up, it's been pretty good since.
@Fanfoot the FCC requires that local affiliate HD channels within the broadcast range of a station's tower should be broadcast on the cable network us unencrypted content, so if you have an HDTV with a QAM tuner, you should be getting at least like ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX and PBS in HD if its available in your area (which i am sure is all areas)
If they'd just support hot-swap and RAID1, I'd have so much more confidence in the drives on these. I've had TiVos in one flavor or another for over a decade, and dealing with dying drives is the worst...
@horseradish That's why most of us upgrade after 30 days or so. We usually wait just to make sure there are no problems with the TiVo and then you do the upgrade. This way you still have the original working drive put away on the shelf should your upgrade drive go bad.
@brennok Upgrades add capacity; when done as you indicate, they also give you a "cold spare" that doesn't get updated or retain content. I'm talking about a dual-drive system that protects against hardware-related downtime for the most common point-of-failure on these devices.
The experience of users trying to work with cable companies and tivo boxes is very much a mixed bag. My own experience was a headache that would have required multiple trips by the cable company if I had not known exactly what needed to be done.
After acquiring a Series 3 box, I called my cable provider to order a Cablecard. I specifically asked for a M-Card, so I would not need to pay for two separate cards. I was also informed that I needed a Tuning Adapter since my provider uses Switched Digital Video. I asked if it were possible for me to self-install the equipment but was told that it required a trained technician to perform the install. So the technicians arrives with the Tuning Adapter in hand. Apparently he never got the order that I had ordered a Cablecard, even though the whole system is worthless without one. I complained, so he went back out to his truck and came back with two S-Cards, so he went ahead and installed those, which consisted of installing them into a slot then reading the numbers to someone over the phone. I hope they had a nice lunch at the training session required to train for that. next he proceeded to attempt to hook up the tuning adapter, but had no clue what connected to what, and he left with inputs wired to inputs, and other things not connected at all. After I reconnected everything properly and called into support to tell them to reset their numbers, it worked fine. Well, it did until the piece of junk tuning adapter lost it's mind and wouldn't tune. An unplug and replug reboot fixes this, but I generally only notice it a day or three after it's happened and shows were not recorded.
If the TiVo Premiere can do away with the tuning adapter, I may be first in line to buy one. It's unlikely though, as I like the TiVo products, but they're brought down by external components outside of their control.
@another josh Its apparently pretty certain (see zatznotfunny.com coverage) that the Tivo doesn't have the baseband tuner required to avoid the external tuning adapter. Course without tru2way which the cable co's haven't rolled out anyway, it wouldn't be useful so I understand why Tivo didn't build it in. Still sucks if you're in a switched area (I presume you're with Time Warner since they're the one doing it the most).
Tru2way is not the successor to CableCARD, in fact all 3rd party tru2way devices will require a CableCARD. Tru2way is the software that is permitted to talk upstream, while CableCARD continues to take care of authorizing the content.
I just want to buy a refurbished Series 3 considering they had them up until the Premier launch and now they've killed them.
I'd rather pay $80 + $130/yr now instead of a $300 box. I don't want frills, but the family would rather not pay for another @$%@# cable box yet would buy a CableCARD.
All I want is to record my SD digital cable as all I own is an SDTV - and all I want is a decent CableCARD tuner.
Or else is there such a thing as a stand-alone CableCARD box I could use to even *watch* digital cable sans DVR?
@dragonfli Sure, the cable company will rent you one of those, its a non-DVR STB, that's all. They even have simple STBs that have the cable card equivalent logic built in that they often make available for free. These typically don't get any channels over 99 though...
So can anyone give a clear cut bullet type list of why I'd go with TiVo when the dish companies give you a DVR for free + $7/mth charge? Still get linear and non-linear programming. While I think the search engine in TiVo is more robust (albeit slow) than Dish or DirecTv, the search functionality on the satellite companies DVR's more than meet anything I want to find??
Seriously, I'm between programming providers as I write and having looked into the alternative's I don't see the case on why anyone would spend this kinda cash upfront and going forward???
@Duke2
If you're considering satellite, a Tivo box wouldn't work for those anyway. It's cable and OTA only. So that might narrow your choices as far as DVRs go. :)
i'm a Tivo HD owner - been a customer since Series 1, then to DTV then to Comcast when DTV dropped Tivo.
i had install issues as well - took three visits before Comcast could get it working correctly - but since then it's worked well.
if anything, when i look at the Premiere - i sort of go "this is it? i was all excited in anticipation of _this_?"
unless there's a platform inside with a ton of headroom for new features and improvements - i think Tivo's missed the ball.
they've delivered an advertiser-focused DVR. which ultimately is where most of the extra screen real estate in the new UI is going...ads.
@rickster Yup. Even the faster CPU may be wasted rendering the Flash-based UI, which doesn't really look that different from the one we've already got. I assume there will still be some advantages, but it doesn't look like there's much...
Until the tivo's can play cableco's VOD, i won't buy another one.
I have 2 Series2, 2 Series3, and 1 HD TiVo, lifetime subs on all of them.
They're all 3+ years old, so way out of warranty.
Have replaced/upgraded one failing HDD on a Series3 thanks to Weaknees ($200), and sent one of the Series2s in to DVRUpgrade for repair (~$150)
Comcast charges me less than $5/mo for 2xS-Cards (Series3 doesn't support M-Card in multi-stream mode) for each Series3, and somewhere around $2/mo for 1xM-Card for the HD.
Given the break-even point for the $130/year sub is approx 3.5 years (shorter if you have more than one), I'm slightly ahead, even taking into account the repair costs.
I have no urge to jump to Tivo Premiere. There's not enough of an upgrade for me there. Perhaps Tivo will change that in the future, but for now, I'm good with what I have.
Still hoping they figure out a way to get some kind of Comcast VOD content to the box. Otherwise I might end up getting at least one Comcast box just for that.
@bhiga Agreed. Personally I could care less about the VOD most of the time, but the wife would use it, and hey, its just sitting there all paid for on my cable bill and everything. Course its the cableco's fault for spec'ing the stupid tru2way thing through CableLabs, promising to roll it out, not rolling it out, etc etc. But still, as a customer I mostly don't care who's fault it is. I just want the capability...
Like most people I dropped my standalone Tivo when I got a DVR from DirectTv a long time ago. Last year however I decided I was sick of paying for my ever increasing DirectTv bill and cancelled the service. I installed an HD Antenna and got a Tivo box to act as a digital tuner, allow me to record over the air and for Netflix streaming. Between over the air, iTunes and Netflix we still get more than enough TV.
I do the yearly payment which works out to be about $10/month.
But didn't the initial reports here say no tru2way so no on-demand channels via cable-cards?
If you are correct that this would be the primary audience then why are they expecting me to give up a half dozen channels I am paying for (or more possibly) ?
Overall these are too little new for too much money.
It's nuts frankly that I have to pay $8/month (or whatever) for tv guide info when zap2it can give it to me for free online. Stick a couple adds in, I don't care. Just don't get carried away with it and we can all live happily together I'm sure.
As it is, I'll wait to see what the sat companies have in the pipe.
Or possibly even a dedicaed box with XMBC.
Or maybe even see what the next MS game system can do - and if it can do it without dying off in droves.
TiVo has to adjust their pricing strategy. I would rather run TiVo than Media Center (for watching TV). However, I cannot justify the cost. You are paying a steep premium for a marginally better user experience.
I get the idea of paying $13/month when the technology was new and you are the only gig in town. But with every cable/satellite company offering their flavor of DVR's + Myth + MCE + Beyond the landscape has simply changed. TiVo must adapt or it will go the way of the dinosaur.
@bjsguess Unlikely since Tivo is still losing money. If its too much for you, don't buy one.
@Fanfoot
How could they be losing money? A digital "tuner" doesn't have to do a lot of work. The rest of the box is at best an ION nettop. There just isn't that much in a Tivo when compared to off the shelf consumer tech these days.
These days you can easily put together a cheaper solution yourself from retail parts once you factor in the extra cost of the "subscription".
@jedi Judging from their public filings, they are losing money on the hardware. So you're underestimating the cost of the components, manufacturing, shipping, support, and whatever else goes into it. That's why the subscription is necessary.
Everyone keeps comparing the cable companies DVR to the TIVO. The Tivo has a ton more hard drive space than any of the cable co. DVRs. Also the TIVO doesn't cost anymore per month than most of the cable cos DVRs. Fios in NJ cost 15.95 /month after the sign up deal is off. The TIVO tv guide and othe rmenus are also a lot better than the FIOS . I have both on my setup and I prefer the TIVO over the FIOS any day of the week. TIVO has expanded their capabilites a lot in the 3 years I had it. The new Premiere is not worth $500 to me as my box has a terabyte drive already. I also have a CPU w/HDMI attached to my tv so I don't need a new TIVO at all.
TiVo is not innovative anymore, and not very interesting. One correction to the column though: TiVo uses MPEG-2 because that's what ATSC-QAM and ATSC-8VSB use, so it has no choice. It's not that big of a deal, as a 1TB hard drive will hold a LOT of MPEG-2. It can handle MPEG-4 AVC for the online "VOD" content.
The article says:
"In contrast, most cable companies give away their DVRs"
This is 100% not true.
First of all, they don't GIVE anyone anything... as soon as you stop subscribing, they take the box back - at least you own the TiVo.
Second of all, cable companies charge a monthly fee rental fee, in addition to the monthly subscription fee... look at your bill.
"Digeo's Moxi"
Moxi hasn't been a Digeo product since last September. Arris bought Digeo and Moxi.