Microsoft weighs in: 'the future of the web is HTML5'
By Vlad Savov 
posted April 30th 2010 4:05AM
posted April 30th 2010 4:05AM
This is where it gets good, because he literally repeats one of Jobs' six pillars of Flash hate: "reliability, security, and performance" are not as good as Microsoft would like them. Where Hachamovitch diverges from Apple's messiah, however, is in describing Flash as an important part of "a good consumer experience on today's web," primarily because it's difficult for the typical consumer to access Flash-free content. Still, it's got to be depressing for Adobe's crew when the best thing either of the two biggest players in tech has to say about your wares is that they're ubiquitous. Wonder how Shantanu Narayen is gonna try and spin this one.
P.S. : it's notable that in multiple paragraphs of discussing "the future," Microsoft's IE general fails to once mention the fabled Silverlight, itself a rich media browser plug-in. Given Silverlight's featured role in the Windows Phone 7 infrastructure and other things like Netflix, we doubt it's on the outs, but there are sure to be some sour faces greeting Hachamovitch this morning.
[Thanks, KnifeX4]
Ouch. Adobe stock to take a hit today imo.
@AlexKnutson
Its also funny because chrome will have flash as its main focus (http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20001429-264.html) , while IE9 will have open standards like HTML5 be the main focus.
@AlexKnutson Keep in mind that it's really easy to say something is the future and not when something has died. It will take a long time for HTML5 to catch on and adobe has time to change things up. Don't get me wrong, I want HTML5 to improve but while I was working on it, it was obvious that it didn't provide me with the same tools as Flash. For now, HTML5 is good for basic Video or single audio files. But browsers have so far only been supporting some of the HTML5 spec and the spec is only to be completed by 2012 and recommended for 2022. So adobe has a good 2-12 years to try and pull something new.
@Natal Well they had no choice really, Chrome OS needs it right now.
Man. Adobe can't get a break.
What I don't like is that all this glosses over the fact that HTML5 does not replace all the features in Flash. Even video streaming, webcam support, DRM, etc... isn't supported in HTML5.
What I think is really stupid about this statement is that this Microsoft group is damaging the Silverlight group. Do you think he remembered that MS is developing a plug-in technology that does have the true potential to displace Flash?
Again, HTML5 is great, but it doesn't equal Flash. It is nice to see some of the features Flash has given us over the years directly in the markup language, but please understand that it isn't a 1 to 1 comparison in capabilities.
Thats like saying the future of Firefox 3.6.3 is Firefox 3.7.0. And the future of IE8 is IE9.
@Anatidae
I agree. Yes it is great to have video and audio supported directly by HTML5 but this will not replace all the interactive stuff that flash can do. Also I am amazed that IE9 will only use h.264 when the video codec has not been decided on yet and google have just boosted the chances of Ogg being the standard by pouring money into the codec development. What is it with Microsoft and their insane browser development decisions?
@AlexKnutson "Adobe stock to take a hit today imo."
Without a doubt. Poor Adobe, Apple got them in a headlock, and now Microsoft is coming in for the kill. Bye bye Adobe Flash.
@AlexKnutson Microsoft and Apple both compete with various Adobe Software.
These are after all essentially competing SOFTWARE companies (yes, Apple makes hardware, but I think everyone can agree that great hardware for the price isn't exactly a Apple selling-point).
@AlexKnutson I don't understand why Flash has been reduced to delivery videos; it's got much more functionality than that...
@AlexKnutson
Most of the comments miss the boat completely. Let me speak from an insider perspective. Microsoft has been trying to marginalize the browser since 2001 (such as ignoring the W3C) . Flash meant cross platform ubiquity (think Linux, Google OS, Mac OS) within the browser. By limiting the browser and thereby forcing users to native applications, Microsoft can leverage it's OS dominance and software development tools. Silverlight was a hedged response to Flash and Apex. They will happily embrace HTML5 at Silverlight expense if it means reducing and disrupting overall browser applications. It is no coincidence that Google has modulated their position on Flash, since an abandonment of Flash would entail a rise again in platform specific native apps - which they have no hegemony. Microsoft and Apple want the converse approach, since they do control the OS and can benefit with tighter integration to the platform.
@AlexKnutson
Especially if Adobe pulls CS5 from Windows like people are saying they should do for OSX. Ha.
On an unrelated note...Linus Torvalds has spoken ill of Flash.
@AlexKnutson
Well, I have to say I like where this is going :)
@AlexKnutson
Yup
@AlexKnutson
Reliability and security? Which browser are you talking about? It can't be IE.
@Natal It will be interesting to see how Google manages their product strategy going forward. Their big differentiator is looking to be Flash.
@Dogtown Using HTML5 means you will be locked in platform. What rubbish. You are already locked in the Adobe Platform by using Flash. HTML5 will free us from any one company.
Most people say HTML5 is the future, well the only way to get to the future is to leave the past i.e. Flash.
@Natal
"Its also funny because chrome will have flash as its main focus, while IE9 will have open standards like HTML5 be the main focus."
That's because Chrome already supports HTML5.
A lot of web apps still use Flash, and there's no technology existing on the market today (apart from Silverlight) that could realistically replace it.
Google is also developing Native Client.
@Tony
Link or didn't happen. Please. :)
@Natal
Who the fack uses IE?
oh yea NUBS... (:o
@jubjub Its about power management. Flash is a power hog, run a system profiler while surfing a Flash intense site. Your power usage goes out the roof. Flash is also utilized to deliver viruses all the time and is buggy! Just about everything you can do in Flash can be done in HTML5 with low power usage, stability and reliability.
@Anatidae
Lets put things in context, this is the guy from IE talking, IE isn't known for being exactly cutting edge or the best at anything, so what does he know??
@jasonhaley
This is exactly the problem. HTML5 is great and an open standard but it is incomplete. The danger will come with proprietary extensions and "improvements" to the standard. Once that happens it is no longer standard.
HTML5 needs a coherent strategy for migration to a complete product.
While Microsoft might be singing the same tune as Apple, their approaches are substantially different. Yes both companies envision HTML5 being the future but along the way, Microsoft at least is not blocking access to entire web's Flash content to get there.
Way I see it is we are not too far from seeing Apple blocking Flash on their desktop Safari as well. Given Steve's statements, it's not a question of IF, it's a question of WHEN.
@AlexKnutson Microsoft weighs in: 'the future of the web is HTML5' wow... thank you genius what would we do without you...
@MacArtStyle
I got your point.However, Can you show me evidence that Flash has virus? Where did you get the idea HTML5 has low CPU usage ?
@AppleDrank
60% of the world's computing population that's who.
@AlexKnutson Well we are not in the future, we are now and now we have Flash.
@AlexKnutson
o yeah, good bye adobe flash haha!! I love where this is going.
@AlexKnutson
Guys, remember. This is the same company that is pushing Silverlight down everyone's throat AND still thinks ActiveX is the future.
Enough said.
@AlexKnutson Well we are not in the future, we are now and now we have Flash....
Unless we have a mobile device.. In which case none of us have flash.. Unless of course we have been invited to use a 'private beta' and have a specific build of android.
@jasonhaley I've seen a lot of statements very similar to this one throughout the comments here and across the web. That HTML5 can't currently support all of the interactive features needed for the types of rich experiences you get with Flash.
You said it yourself though: it's a tooling problem. HTML5, CSS, and JS can recreate any piece of content you can with Flash. Right now. In many browsers. The problem is that there isn't a visual, WYSIWYG tool to drag and drop shapes, create animations over timelines, attach actions to objects, etc. It's difficult, because all of the drawing, coding, and styling must be done in code, a far cry from how things are done in Flash. That's giving everyone the impression it can't do it. But it can.
That's not an excuse though. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you will, and no one who builds rich media applications is going to trade the Flash CS5 tool for a text editor anytime soon. Until the *tools* get brought up to par, it won't take off. That's where Adobe can step up. They make the best tools for building this kind of content. I hear there is even rudimentary support for exporting to HTML5 in CS5. When they put more of their focus into that, they can ensure they'll continue to dominate even after Flash loses relevance.
@AlexKnutson
Why do the Engadget staff keep living in their Apple Juiced World? aRe you guys high or something when you write stuff up? Steve Jobs is not the creator of HTML5 and nore has it been the first to implement it. So why the reference that MS is following his footsteps? Bunch of iD**Ts... There have been many company heading towards HTML5 for a while, such as Google. So why make it as if Apple/Steve are the ones that are implementing it?
Besides HTML 5 is not the savior of the web! The reason plug ins are better is because they innovate faster and implement better technology then the governing body that rules out HTML5... heck most of the features of HTML5 having even been approved or implemented yet cause of how slow they go about it.
@AppleDrank too bad n00bs take up like 52% of the market. That's a huuuuge chunk. Basically Flash is going down. Good riddance!
@nickcraze
Also... is everyone here high?
This is a blog... it practically uses ASCII art as its graphical interface!
Why do we all spend so much time caring about Flash, Silverlight, Quicktime, HTML5???
@AlexKnutson
Loving this, first Apple haters lost their vapourware Courier, now even beloved Microsoft is against Flash.
Eat it.
@AlexKnutson thank the lord flash is getting discontinued!
@Darkroom Microsoft (Silverlight) competes with Flash, not Apple. If Apple is competing against Flash, then so is everyone else who uses HTML5.
@Lee A "HTML5, CSS, and JS can recreate any piece of content you can with Flash."
This is a completely untrue statement. Ok, show me how to embed fonts. How about webcam streaming? Oh, any level of DRM? Oh yea, speaking of video, how about some real streaming instead of progressive download solutions? Video with alpha masking? Maybe you can show me how to match all the vector art blending effects? Now, please demonstrate pixel perfect matching from browser to browser using HTML5.
HTML5 picks up a very light set of features that give you the graphic capabilities of about Flash 4 or maybe 5 plus limited video/audio support. There are more features I could list that you cannot duplicate in HTML5.
Further, authoring in HTML requires you to learn multiple markup and scripting languages. At least with Flash you have a developed graphical IDE and a single language.
@trainwrecka
Apple competes with Flash because Flash's power zone is building small scale applications that deploy on multiple devices. A Flash-free web has multiple advantages for Apple's bottom line, such as A) Forcing devs to use their toolchain, thereby requiring them to own a Mac in order to build iPhone apps B) Making it more difficult to deploy an app to competing platforms such as Android and WebOS C) Forcing users to go to the app store (and pay) to run apps on their phones, rather than being able to consume apps through the web browser via Flash. There's plenty more, but those are the big ones.
@jubjub
I agree. The uninformed think Flash is just for video delivery and banner ads.
@Dogtown
I don't think I'm following what you're saying here. HTML5 is an open standard that would reduce application lock-in if fully embraced. So how does Microsoft's attack on Flash allow them more OS dominance? Which developers are going to choose between Microsoft's and Apple's proprietary solution when they could just go with HTML5? And where does Google's position contrast with Microsoft's/Apple's, when Youtube began testing a transition to HTML5 months ago? Please lead me to the boat that I'm missing here.
Frankly, I think the reason behind everyone ditching Flash is simply that it's a pain in the ass to everyone involved and is no longer relevant with HTML5 around.
@Dogtown
"Flash meant cross platform ubiquity (think Linux, Google OS, Mac OS) within the browser. By limiting the browser and thereby forcing users to native applications, Microsoft can leverage it's OS dominance and software development tools."
You would be right if not for the fact that HTML5 also means cross platform ubiquity. In fact, even more so since you're not reliant on proprietary tech to upgrade something like a Linux version of Flash versus simple HTML5 support in a browser.
"They will happily embrace HTML5 at Silverlight expense if it means reducing and disrupting overall browser applications. "
This makes no sense. If control is what you're saying they're after, why would they go with an open standard they have no control over versus their own homegrown solution?
"...an abandonment of Flash would entail a rise again in platform specific native apps"
HTML5 supposedly can do whatever Flash can do with transitions, video, etc so why would native apps rise? Theoretically, the typical Flash app would then be written in HTML5.
It almost sounds like you don't even know what HTML5 is.
@Kurian exactly what I was thinking, I still don't get why everyone thinks that html5 makes flash irrelevant, it's like saying the new macbook makes the PC irrelevant or the new ford makes vw's irrelevant... the different platforms can exist and evolve on their own merits without 1 platform having to dominate all. One evolving SHOULD just push the other to make itself more useful lest it end up like realmedia
Agree with you totally.
@Natal The article doesn't say that Flash will be Chrome's main focus. It says Flash will be included as part of Chrome and be updated automatically. Chrome is built on WebKit, same as Safari, so it IS a web-standards based browser.
@mittortz
Well, first HTML5 does not include support for other non-video actions currently supported in Flash (i.e. web cams). HTML5 is great for consuming content, but would have trouble keeping up with native app development without plug-in technology (think touch interfaces, games, advanced content creation--Photoshop). I think it is Microsoft's and Apple's goal to push native app development versus browser plug-in development, since that attacks cross-platform app ubiquity. Apple has hegemony in smart phones and Microsoft in desktop's. They are finally going to leverage OS dominance to couple their services to the OS. That can only happen if the browser is reduced--which is what Apple has successfully done in the iPhone. That is why Google is cozying back up to Adobe, since they could easily be cut out of ad revenue if the browser is diminished.
@Odin
At best, HTML5 will be a subset of features found in native apps. This is demonstrated in iPhone. A model Microsoft is looking to copy. Adobe's strategy was to act as a layer above native application development and thereby provide multi-platform support. For example, if you used Adobe's tools, you could code a single game that would compile and behave the same on an iphone, ipad, or a browser window (think Farmville). That is an attack on Apple's greatest strength currently - app ecosystem. If the same game or application could be run regardless of platform, then the iPhone app lock-in goes away. They had this with their proprietary dock connector and iTunes on the iPod. Once invested, consumers didn't have the wherewithal to leave. Every app purchased on the iPhone enforces the lock-in. Microsoft would like to see this on Windows. HTML5 will not be a substitute for real app development due to the difficulty in advancing the standards. I don't see the standards moving beyond video and some simple animations.
@raiden8383 Adobe's flash virus history has been well documented for years, the biggest issue being that it can easily be placed invisibly and execute viral code without a uses knowledge. (http://www.edn.com/blog/400000040/post/1430052543.html) The problem has been Adobe's slow reaction to release patches over time. Which if you notice is the common argument that Apple is making, they are slow to get stuff done. HTML5, in conjunction with CSS and Java run natively in the browser without need for plugins. Video is the worst culprit of power usage with Flash, as opposed to HTML5 used in conjunction with H.264 which utilizes a single codec for both small portable devises and desktops, splitting them into profiles that target each group device without loss of quality and low cpu usage (http://diveintohtml5.org/video.html)