http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/ Engadget Comments for Did the Fifth Circuit just make breaking DRM legal? Not quite. http://www.engadget.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://www.engadget.com en-us Copyright 2012 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 2:15PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 2:21PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
Baby steps in the right direction, are better than long strides in the wrong direction.]]>Jul 26th 2010 2:24PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Thanks for the analysis, but this is kind of like engaging in the unauthorized practice of law.
Why not take the Bar exam tomorrow instead?]]>Jul 26th 2010 2:44PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
As for unauthorized practice of law, well, I am licensed in two states, and further I don't think anyone here really believes I'm rendering legal services, so I think I'm in the clear! :)
]]>Jul 26th 2010 2:59PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/You're kinda like engaging in the practice of dumb commenting.

You realize Nilay is in fact an attorney. Not to mention, since when did reporting on a federal decision become practicing law?

@Nilay
This still has potential strong implications. While, copying certainly is the dominant protection of copyrights, copyright holders have long asserted other rights. For example shareware, I know not much shareware exists anymore but in shareware copyright holders use DRM to limit the amount of time you can use a product. Under the 5th Cir. interpretation I could remove the DRM to enable me to continue to use the copyrighted work. I am not making a copy, just enabling my legally obtained copy to work past the 30 day limitation imposed by the copyright holder.

I doubt this ruling has much of a chance of surviving unless it gets construed very narrowly.]]>Jul 26th 2010 3:06PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 3:08PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
I agree that this ruling isn't long for this world, however -- if it doesn't get significantly narrowed on appeal, the fact situation is specific and wonky enough for any future cases to be quickly and easily distinguished. But I felt it was a little too speculative for me to put that sort of analysis in the post.]]>Jul 26th 2010 3:13PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
You weren't being sarcastic. You clearly meant that and were in an uninformed state when you made that comment. Having now been shown the facts, simply admit you were wrong and move on. That is the correct thing to do.]]>Jul 26th 2010 3:36PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 4:06PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 5:16PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 6:49PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
or how about going back to your job at the RIAA? Your 2-hour lunch break is OVER!]]>Jul 26th 2010 11:20PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Hmm, good point. I had not really thought beyond the DMCA violation. So does this mean that MGE didn't have a license with its software for its power systems? Seems like everything comes with a license these days. I suppose there are any number of other reasons the contract claim may not have been pled or survived.

Thanks for the read Nilay. Certainly an interesting concept.]]>Jul 26th 2010 11:25PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 27th 2010 3:08AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 2:18PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 2:30PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
I don't know that I'd call DRM a joke.

It's a sad state of affairs that we live in a world where the people who create things (music, movies, games, art, what have you) get to watch their work pilfered over the interwebs by people who don't pay a thing for it.

On the other side of the coin, the lengths that some companies go to protect their work in response to said pilfering is just ridiculous. Like others I think the pendulum has swung to far in the direction of restrictive DRM, but I am afraid that DRM of some sort will likely always be with us.

-Discipulus




]]>Jul 26th 2010 2:41PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
Nothing is stopping record companies recording on LP, or video producers to produce their content on video taps, etc.

The problem is that now that the medium has become digital.......they (being the record companies, movie companies, etc) need to come to grips with the fact that the products they create are worth no where near what they decide to charge for them. I agree it is their right to charge whatever they want, but it is just as much the consumer's right to turn to other alternatives in order to obtain that content.

I think things like Netflix is a prime example of what model movie companies as well as music companies are going to have to go in order to slow down the spread of piracy. If they decide to just continue down the path of lawsuits and scare tactics against people......it will never work. What did the RIAA spend from 06-08, something like $64 million to fight piracy, and what did they get back, $1.6 million, or some super small number. It is not even worth it for them, in terms of legal costs, to go after individuals.

I would really hope that Record Companies as well as Movie Companies work on a model that is fair to both sides. Every time they have managed to knock down some type of file sharing.....something bigger and better has ALWAYS come along and just makes not paying for that material easier and easier.]]>Jul 26th 2010 3:03PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
It's not the consumer's right to watch movies or listen to music or anything like that. If you aren't willing to pay what is asked, you don't get to do what you want without paying - rentals are fine, and legal, but making a copy isn't. It's like going to an amusement park, deciding you're not willing to pay the $30 admission price, and jumping the fence instead.]]>Jul 26th 2010 4:30PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 4:42PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 7:27PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 2:23PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 2:25PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 2:45PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 2:56PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/]]>Jul 26th 2010 3:26PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 2:47PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 4:31PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
You copy it from cache to the output buffer, and its copied over the cable in your TV's memory.

If you stream a movie from your home computer to your laptop over the internet while you're out and about, you're copying it dozens of times on dozens of routers across the internet.

Whats the technical language that makes a copy from a DRM'd source to an output device and its associated memory "authorized?"

Whats the difference between short term memory in a TV and slightly longer term flash memory in a PMP?]]>Jul 26th 2010 2:51PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
Ultimately the problem is that we've progressed far beyond "making a copy" when it comes to thinking about uses of copyrighted works -- in the digital world, we're all making tons of copies all the time. I think eventually we'll move to regulating actual uses and not copies, but that's a major conversation for another day.]]>Jul 26th 2010 3:04PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Last I heard, the Supreme Court struggled with the difference between email and pagers. I can't easily imagine them suddenly understanding what's at issue here and siding with the EFF.]]>Jul 27th 2010 2:51AMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 2:52PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
Digital property rights stored in the cloud solve the issue for producers and consumers alike.]]>Jul 26th 2010 5:09PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
Good Question, however I think you mean is it illegal to use the software in the way you describe. I don't think its illegal to download the software at all.]]>Jul 26th 2010 2:52PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 2:53PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 2:57PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 3:08PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 3:12PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 3:41PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 3:43PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
If space-shifting is fair use, then ripping a DVD (or cracking an e-book to read it on an unsupported device) shouldn't trigger the DMCA, should it?]]>Jul 26th 2010 4:24PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
We need property rights in the cloud with painless syncing, so we can put our media on any device, albeit one at a time.]]>Jul 26th 2010 5:02PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 9:12PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 9:28PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
For example, many moons ago Sony introduced a DRM scheme that prevented their music CDs from even being played on a computer, sometimes causing crashes in the process. Would it still be illegal to circumvent the protections in order to play this disc on your computer?

Lastly, how does this apply to breaking DRM to put something on an MP3 player? You are technically making a copy, but the purpose is to gain access.]]>Jul 26th 2010 5:34PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/
I thought that making a single backup copy of VHS and CD's had been settled as a fair use activity under copyright law.

If so, the whole "unauthorized copy" is a moot point, since the courts have previously decided that it within a consumers right to protect their own investment by way of a backup copy. It doesn't matter if the studio authorized it or not.

Therefore, is it not reasonable to say that breaking DRM on content you legally own for purposes of making and using a backup copy is now legal?]]>Jul 26th 2010 5:51PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 7:26PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 8:43PMhttp://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/26/did-the-fifth-circuit-just-make-breaking-drm-legal-not-quite/Jul 26th 2010 8:58PM