Terrence: Hello internet and welcome to the Engadget Podcast. I'm your host Terrence O'Brien. I am back from vacation and feeling pretty good. To my right, one of the lovely people who stepped in for me last week, Senior Editor, Devindra Hardawar.
Terrence: Thanks for doing that buddy.
Devindra: No problem. I'm getting a little scared here.
Terrence: Yeah? Over on the left another person who stepped in for me. Managing Editor, Dana Wollman.
Dana: Oh hello.
Terrence: How're you doing?
Dana: I am doing great. Congrats on your race.
Terrence: Oh thank you. Yes for those who don't know, I ran my first marathon last week.
Dana: He had a good excuse for not being here.
Devindra: Yeah. Pretty good.
Terrence: Directly next to me, the clearly very uncomfortable Cherlynn Low, Reviews Editor.
Cherlynn : I am not glad you're back.
Terrence: I can tell that.
Dana: She did not fill in for anybody last week.
Cherlynn : I did not help out at all. It was great.
Terrence: No. Nope.
Devindra: Terrance is smiling everybody.
Cherlynn : It's very creepy.
Devindra: That's first warning.
Dana: He's smiling with his mouth but not his eyes. He does not look like a man who's happy to be back from vacation.
Terrence: Cherlynn, because you weren't on the show last week though, that means you get off scottfree here.
Cherlynn : I was on the show.
Terrence: Oh were you?
Cherlynn : I think you need to get your mind checked a little bit.
Terrence: You were saying you weren't stepping in for anything.
Cherlynn : I just did my own job.
Devindra: No she just sat there.
Terrence: To be fair-
Devindra: Didn't contribute a thing.
Dana: Cherlynn just played the role of Cherlynn.
Cherlynn : Yeah. Yeah.
Terrence: I listened to last week's episode while passing out on a plane to be fair so it's kind of all a blur. No, I do have to murder you as well.
Cherlynn : Because I didn't help?
Devindra: I remember.
Terrence: There was far too many Uncle Terry's to launch last week's episode.
Cherlynn : I said none of them though. It was these two.
Dana: And Nate.
Terrence: And Nate.
Devindra: And Nate.
Cherlynn : You should go for Nate any [time 00:01:41].
Terrence: Nathan [crosstalk 00:01:41] I'm coming for you. I'm coming.
Devindra: [crosstalk 00:01:41]
Dana: Like I said, I did not use the line Tit's McGee is on vacation. You really should be thanking me actually.
Cherlynn : We were like you should.
Terrence: Thank you Dana.
Devindra: Calling Terrence Uncle Terry is like Donald Trump Donald.
Devindra: I guess. The seething hatred that we're seeing now, it's going to be a fun episode.
Terrence: Yeah. It's going to be good.
Terrence: I'm excited to be back. I am actually kind of happy to be back, as much as work is work, it's good to be back in New York and back on the East Coast where people are somewhat normal.
Terrence: I'm sorry West Coast, I can't deal with you guys. You're way too laid back for me.
Devindra: Too laid back. I don't know.
Terrence: Yeah. Let's do one of my favorite things, argue about stuff.
Terrence: It is time for Flame Wars as we start every week. Devindra and Dana, you know the rules. You get 20 seconds to make your opening statement, at which point you get one of these-
Dana: He's good. I've never faced off against that guy.
Terrence: Yeah. My favorite thing. Then at the end, Cherlynn you are going to declare a winner based on the strength of the argument.
Cherlynn : I hold the power.
Cherlynn : I can get back at Dana now, also Devindra because I don't like that guy.
Terrence: Are you just going to declare that everybody is a loser?
Cherlynn : Everybody is a loser, let's be real.
Devindra: Cherlynn is secretly a Trump supporter, so everyone's just sad according to [Trump 00:02:52]
Cherlynn : [inaudible 00:02:54] going to come after me. No I'm not. No. Anyway.
Terrence: Let's start with Elan Musk and Space-[Esque 00:03:05], Space-X.
Devindra: Space-Esque. That sounds good.
Terrence: I have not have enough coffee.
Cherlynn : I don't think you're back [crosstalk 00:03:10]
Devindra: That's a good name for a company, like you're not going to space.
Cherlynn : Space-Esque.
Terrence: Yeah Space-Esque.
Terrence: It's pretty good. We are going to start with Dana who is apparently super excited to go to Mars.
Dana: I'm not super excited, but as long as Elan Musk's ideas about Mars colonization are hypothetical, I don't really see how upset you can get. His ideas are optimistic and well intentioned and his company Space-X is privately funded and is not dependent on poor individual stockholders, it's not accepting government money. As long as it's privately funded and this is all hypothetical, why not praise him for being optimistic?
Terrence: That's pretty good. I appreciate that.
Cherlynn : That was pretty tight.
Terrence: Yeah. Devindra, your rebuttal?
Devindra: Yeah. I can see where you're coming from Dana, but this also all seems incredibly pie in the sky. They shoot off a fancy video showing off how this new space shuttle will take people to Mars. It all looks really fancy, but I don't understand if they can actually make it happen.
Terrence: As always, you are way under budget on your time.
Terrence: Ruin my fun and don't let me hit the buzzer. Dana do you have a rebuttal?
Dana: What is the question we're debating? Yeah. What's the question we're debating?
Devindra: I guess the question is what's up with his decision to go Mars? Is it feasible, is it just bluster? That's also something Musk has been criticized for in the past. The only thing is he's consistently proven his critics wrong too. He made the Tesla happen, the reusable rockets from Space-X are a thing, they've been helping send cargo up to the space center. He's, I guess [crosstalk 00:04:54]
Dana: It could be bluster, I'm not even arguing with you on that. As long as he's right now tooling around with his own company and resources, a company that he founded with a good chunk of his own money, what's wrong with that?
Devindra: It's also because we know NASA hasn't had as much funding so there's a danger if we offload some of the work that NASA would've been doing to another company, and if that doesn't work out, that's something potentially lost too. I just want to make sure, before we really get started here, we know what's going on. Yeah.
Terrence: One quick question though. His plans, do they involve a return from Mars?
Dana: We don't know yet.
Devindra: His line I think was you better be prepared to die or something like that for [crosstalk 00:05:41]
Dana: Also cancer [schmancer 00:05:42].
Devindra: Cancer schmancer.
Dana: Radiation [smadiation 00:05:44].
Devindra: Yeah. Traveling through space you're open to all sorts of cancer risks.
Dana: Space flames.
Cherlynn : Wait, so ...
Devindra: The rockets will come back technically in his idea, but not the humans. You're going there to colonize, it seems.
Cherlynn : Yeah. You were saying right, you're going there to colonize. Did he say what was the main point? If you're going there and screw cancer, what was the other-
Devindra: Sense of adventure. He's basically saying we will have to move off this planet at some point, so he just wants to get things started. It's just funny because I was watching the fancy promo video they made and it looks all nice. The door opens to Mars and it's like, guys this is a hellscape. What are we doing here? This seems like something you want to set up with scientists and people set up, I don't know, living environments, before you start sending normal people over there.
Cherlynn : Okay.
Terrence: All right. Cherlynn?
Cherlynn : I think it's a ridiculous idea, but I think Dana made a stronger argument.
Dana: Whoo hoo.
Cherlynn : Based on the strength of the argument, I'm going to give it to her.
Cherlynn : Also I don't like Devindra.
Devindra: Yeah. See? Bias. So bias.
Terrence: You think a one way trip to Mars is a pretty [crosstalk 00:06:52]
Dana: Cherlynn you look very nice today.
Cherlynn : Oh wow, look at that. I'm going to give her all the points now.
Devindra: I have some candidates for a one way trip Mars.
Cherlynn : You?
Terrence: I think we all have at least one candidate for a one way trip to Mars. Cherlynn.
Cherlynn : All right. Dana you get all the points today. I'm just saying in advance.
Cherlynn : Right. Okay? Okay, cool.
Terrence: Let's move on to our second topic. Let's talk about the new Roku players. I'm not going to lie, I'm not 100 percent up on these things. This is one that I went-
Devindra: You're forgiven.
Terrence: I went Roku has a new thing?
Terrence: I kind of shrugged my shoulders.
Devindra: Every year.
Terrence: Devindra, why don't you tell me why these new Roku players are not a complete waste of money.
Devindra: First of all they're going really cheap. Roku for the first time has a $30 player. That's a great deal. Anybody can put it on their other TVs and they've also driven down the cost of 4K and HDR [entry 00:07:41] to $100 with their new Premiere Plus player. Basically, new features at a cheaper price.
Terrence: You are no fun.
Cherlynn : I don't like that guy.
Devindra: What was the time there?
Terrence: You had four seconds left.
Devindra: Sounds good.
Terrence: Yeah. I'm super convinced you're sitting down and scripting these. I'm going to catch you one day. Dana, your rebuttal.
Dana: All right. Either my sense of time is fucked, or Roku just announces products way too frequently. I read this about Roku's new players and I think wait didn't they just announce new players?
Devindra: They had a new thing.
Dana: When I say just announced, I don't know if I mean weeks or months or a year ago because again my sense of time is [crosstalk 00:08:25]
Devindra: Yeah. Six months ago they announced the Stick. Yeah.
Cherlynn : No, no, no, no. How can that be 20 seconds gone already?
Terrence: Devindra crams an incredible amount of information into 10 seconds.
Devindra: Have talking points guys.
Dana: Speaking as thoughtfully as me means slowing down a little bit.
Cherlynn : I guess.
Devindra: It's black magic Cherlynn.
Cherlynn : That's way too soon. I don't think you're being fair is what I'm saying.
Terrence: You can watch the timer. You're sitting right next to me.
Devindra: Sure. I may have talked over you Dana, so sorry if I interrupted your time.
Cherlynn : Anyway.
Terrence: Yeah. I kind of agree with you Dana a little bit, I got to say. I do feel like Roku is constantly announcing things. Didn't they just announce something like literally-
Devindra: Six months ago they announced the Streaming Stick, but it's not often. They have a player refresh once a year and then they have new things.
Cherlynn : Everything else-
Dana: It's been a year already?
Terrence: Has it? I think it's been a week.
Cherlynn : Everything else you've heard are the leaks. They're just the leaks
Devindra: I know because I've had to review the last one. It's annual upgrade time guys.
Dana: What I'm saying is admittedly subjective which is that it feels like Roku announces a lot of products often and that the updates tend to be fairly incremental and not groundbreaking, which means that if you happen to be in need of a streamer you can probably safely buy whatever Roku happens to have and not-
Devindra: That's really it.
Dana: Not wait for anything new.
Devindra: You can be certain that whatever you're getting from Roku will be the newest thing towards the end of the year. It's a little cheaper, a little more capable than last year. I would like a big change at some point, but for now this is good.
Dana: I think we can at least agree that Roku makes great stuff.
Dana: I own a Roku Stick myself. It's definitely not a new model and I'm still happy with it.
Devindra: Oh man.
Terrence: I have the [original 00:09:59].
Devindra: You could upgrade.
Terrence: I have the original Roku. It's working fine.
Devindra: You guys. That thing is a nightmare.
Dana: It's slow but I can handle it.
Devindra: It's so slow. The new one which I reviewed a couple months ago, it's just fast. It feels as fast as a set top box is. That makes a big difference when you're scrolling through minis and stuff. They need to change their software. That's the one thing Roku really needs to upgrade.
Terrence: I guess part of the reason I'm still okay with the Roku Stick is I personally don't use it because I also have a Chromecast and it's a lot easier to just send stuff from my phone.
Cherlynn : I use my Chromecast all the time. Anyway. Devindra, I was curious. Does the $30 option also support 4K and HDR? No right?
Devindra: No. No. That's for people with older TVs. Honestly if you have a TV below 50 inches, you don't need a 4K streaming box.
Cherlynn : Yeah exactly.
Devindra: You'll only notice it at above 50 inches.
Cherlynn : The $30 one is it as fast as the newest Rokus?
Devindra: I didn't get to see too much of it in action, but it seems faster than the original Streaming Stick and enough for secondary or third TVs, things like that. Something you can buy for your parents or anybody that doesn't have streaming yet.
Cherlynn : Devindra had my attention the second he said $30.
Devindra: There you go.
Dana: Fair enough.
Terrence: That is a pretty good argument.
Cherlynn : I was like all right.
Terrence: To be fair.
Cherlynn : Yeah. I'm a cheapo. I can't help it.
Terrence: It's hard to argue with. It's one of the reasons why I think the Chromecast did so well.
Cherlynn : Did so well. Yeah.
Terrence: It's an impulse purchase at that point.
Cherlynn : Yeah.
Terrence: You just go sure why not?
Cherlynn : It's a great stocking stuffer.
Devindra: I have a couple of them.
Terrence: I had three Chromecasts at some point and went how did I end up with three and gave one to somebody. I was like here take this.
Devindra: There you go.
Cherlynn : There you go.
Terrence: Our last topic is Yahoo's hack. Before we debate this though because I think this is a little bit of a complicated story, Devindra can you give us a quick recap of this one?
Devindra: Recap. It was revealed recently that Yahoo back in 2014 suffered a breach of information of 500 million users and they knew about this and they didn't tell anybody for years.
Dana: That's a record breaking hack.
Devindra: That's insane.
Cherlynn : Yeah. It's the largest on record.
Devindra: I think it's a record breaking hack. They're blaming a state sponsored hacker. The crazier thing is we didn't know about this, they did, and they didn't say anything. I also wonder what Verizon's going to say about this because they just bought Yahoo and that was not part of the deal.
Cherlynn : They're in the process of ...
Devindra: Yeah. They're in the process-
Dana: Which to our listeners out there, we really don't know. [crosstalk 00:12:13]
Cherlynn : We don't know what's going on.
Devindra: We don't know.
Dana: From upstairs. No one tells us anything.
Terrence: We're very much in the dark on this stuff.
Terrence: All right. That's sort of a quick recap. Dana I will let you open the arguments. You are going-
Dana: Can we make the usual disclaimer now that this is an intellectual exercise?
Terrence: Yes. We've said this multiple times and I will say it again, Flame Wars is always an intellectual exercise, not necessarily-
Dana: Devindra and I had to draw straws on this one.
Devindra: Yeah. May not have to reflect how we really think.
Terrence: There's actually usually an argument ahead of the episode about who gets stuck with the shitty point of view to have to argue.
Cherlynn : It's usually me. I'm glad it's someone else today.
Dana: It's me.
Terrence: You actually often volunteer for it, which I appreciate.
Devindra: She is the contrarian editor.
Terrence: Yeah. She's like I'm going to argue in favor of-
Cherlynn : This wildly unpopular-
Terrence: Dead or Alive VR.
Devindra: Yeah. Yeah.
Cherlynn : Oh yes. That was fun.
Terrence: Dana you have your 20 seconds to come to Yahoo's defense.
Dana: I'm not even going to try and come to their defense. The only thing nice that I can say about them is that there is some evidence that they have learned their lesson. For instance their investment in security related stuff jumped 60 percent between 2015 and '16. Also surely Yahoo will be run somewhat differently under Verizon without Marissa Mayer in charge.
Terrence: Under time.
Cherlynn : Good job.
Terrence: Devindra, your rebuttal.
Devindra: The con is, this is insane. This is a huge hack and no legitimate company would allow something like this to happen without saying anything. Yeah, even though they're investing more in security doesn't excuse the fact that they didn't tell anybody and have done a bad job of even doing basic security measures to fix it.
Cherlynn : Yeah. Go ahead.
Terrence: I have one question I guess before- I'll throw this to you Cherlynn, which is, did they have any excuse for not talking about this before? Did they have a reason why they kept this hack secret?
Devindra: I haven't seen a good one yet.
Dana: I'm sorry. I'm arguing against myself.
Terrence: That's fine.
Devindra: Yeah I haven't seen a good reason.
Dana: No, their reported reasoning actually makes the whole thing worse because it seems that their priorities were in the wrong place. They were concerned about users jumping ship if they were forced to do something "inconvenient" like reset their passwords.
Devindra: A simple thing they could've done is-
Dana: Which is so not the point.
Devindra: ... reset everybody's passwords en masse.
Cherlynn : They took until 2016 to do that, right? They only did that recently to ask people to change their passwords.
Devindra: Recently. Yeah.
Terrence: Yeah. I got that notification the other day.
Cherlynn : You still use Yahoo Mail?
Terrence: To be clear, I'm very glad that literally the only thing I use Yahoo for is Fantasy Baseball.
Terrence: The only thing anybody was going to do was mess with my lineup and I already lost the playoff.
Devindra: That's legit. Yeah.
Terrence: By the way, screw you [Shawn 00:14:48].
Cherlynn : Wow. Okay.
Devindra: Okay Shawn.
Cherlynn : All right.
Terrence: That's my cousin. He beat me. He literally doesn't care about baseball at all, he just joined the league for fun and he kicked my ass.
Cherlynn : I'm not clear on the whole Marissa Mayer thing and I'm not sure if it's completely necessary to delve into this. Is she going to ... I don't know that she's definitely going to not come over?
Devindra: We haven't heard anything yet. I would assume some [crosstalk 00:15:14]
Dana: Last that either company has said publicly is that she will stay on at least through the transition. If either company has changed their plans, we wouldn't know. Again-
Cherlynn : Yeah, we wouldn't know either.
Dana: Seriously no one fills us in on this. We find out when the rest of the world does.
Devindra: I think the only reason people aren't as freaked out about this as much is that nobody really cares about their Yahoo accounts.
Cherlynn : Exactly.
Devindra: That's like the ultimate thing. If this was Google, if this was even Microsoft, this would be an end of the world situation. Yahoo is in such a state of who cares, hundreds of millions of accounts could be compromised and everyone's like meh. It's not a big deal I guess. It's still insane.
Cherlynn : Okay.
Dana: Don't feel bad for Marissa Mayer, but I wonder what her legacy is. She put so much time and resources into product at Yahoo, products that, do people use them and will they use them now that they don't believe they're secure.
Devindra: That's a good question.
Cherlynn : Yeah. Okay. I'm going to say that Dana had the better argument because it was backed by facts.
Dana: You don't have to do me any favors.
Cherlynn : No, no, no, for real.
Devindra: What do you mean facts Cherlynn?
Cherlynn : First of all, first of all, first of all.
Cherlynn : Listen it's already difficult-
Devindra: There are facts right here.
Cherlynn : I understand [crosstalk 00:16:36]
Devindra: There are more facts against this.
Terrence: You are the arbiter and ultimately you get to decide but, what? Man.
Cherlynn : First of all- yeah men. First of all, I know how difficult it is to take contrarian views and I applaud the fact that she made a sound argument despite [crosstalk 00:16:51]
Terrence: This is not how debates are judged Cherlynn.
Cherlynn : Nuh uh. I'm judging based on the-
Terrence: The merits of the argument.
Cherlynn : Yeah. The merits of the argument, not the case in point. Not the story in question but the merits of how she argued.
Dana: It's like a difficult gymnast routine in the Olympics.
Cherlynn : Versus an easy one.
Dana: I did the produnova whatchamacallit vault routine and you did your single somersault thing.
Devindra: I guess.
Cherlynn : It's true.
Terrence: This is a really weird and deep metaphor.
Devindra: I don't know what's going on here.
Devindra: It's okay.
Terrence: I know literally nothing about gymnastics.
Cherlynn : Anyway, I made my call so suck it Devindra.
Terrence: I'm sorry, we have a winner, Dana wins this week.
Devindra: Listeners, feel free to write in at [podcastengadget.com 00:17:31]
Cherlynn : [inaudible 00:17:32]
Devindra: Send notes to Cherlynn.
Terrence: I was going to say just send us all your email directly to Cherlynn.
Devindra: What's your Twitter handle Cherlynn?
Cherlynn : @Devindra. Yeah.
Devindra: I get good ones.
Cherlynn : Okay.
Dana: The best part is no one's mad at me.
Terrence: I know.
Cherlynn : Everyone's always mad at me, I'm used to it. It's fine.
Devindra: Cherlynn just invites it.
Cherlynn : I don't. Anyway, I hate all of you. Not like, I don't know.
Dana: Not me.
Cherlynn : Maybe.
Terrence: You don't hate all of us. It's a secret. Let's move on though.
Terrence: Let's move on though. I want to talk to you Cherlynn in a segment we like to call Open Source. You went this weekend I believe out to Red Hook Brooklyn to go see a boat race.
Cherlynn : Yeah.
Terrence: Why don't you tell us a little bit about this and what made it special.
Cherlynn : What I went to was the Red Hook Regatta, the second one ever, and part of it was a 3D printed boat race in which 3D printed boats were competing against each other to speed towards a target and score points. We were very intrigued by it because I think all of us at first were like, holy crap human sized, large six foot boats that were 3D printed, that's going to be amazing. Turns out they were 20, more like foot long ...
Dana: You mean like when you would go to an amusement park and you would see those RC controlled boats that you pay money to operate?
Cherlynn : Yes. Those boats- yep.
Devindra: Those boats are great.
Terrence: [crosstalk 00:18:49] pretty great.
Cherlynn : It was those.
Devindra: Yeah. I love them.
Cherlynn : People love them. I was slightly disappointed. First of all-
Devindra: You had your boating clothes on.
Terrence: Were you really expecting a 3D printed canoe or kayak that you would get into?
Cherlynn : I was actually.
Devindra: We'll have that eventually.
Cherlynn : I was.
Terrence: I'm actually pretty sure we've probably already had that at some point.
Cherlynn : Yeah. That's one of the reasons I [crosstalk 00:19:08]
Devindra: Did you have your boating outfit on, Cherlynn?
Cherlynn : I didn't.
Devindra: [inaudible 00:19:10]
Cherlynn : I was warned against that afterwards. We were talking to the organizers of the event beforehand and they were like, we'll need two people from Engadgets to race their boat because they were going to print a boat for us to race. I was like, I didn't think physical activity would be involved in this story. I was very against it. I was like, um I don't want to-
Devindra: ... want to do anything.
Cherlynn : I don't want to have to break a sweat.
Terrence: Did you consider sending Dana in your place?
Cherlynn : Actually no I should've. Dana's a very strong person, that's why I gave her the point. No. Anyway, eventually they were like, oh yeah someone has to use the remote control and someone has to load the boat. I was like, oh remote control. That's when I- it was slightly less impressive, but not altogether not newsworthy or ...
Devindra: I'm glad you did your research on this Cherlynn.
Dana: It's a shame. Our medium right now is radio mostly or sound, so listeners at home can't tell how actually well designed some of the boats were. I'm looking at a photo now of one that was really ...
Cherlynn : Beautiful.
Dana: It was beautiful, which I guess is separate from the idea that it was designed through a 3D printer. It seems that people took this seriously and used it as a creative outlet.
Cherlynn : Yeah. One thing that I found out through the reporting of this was that this had a lot to do with a program called Digital Stewards in Red Hook, which I had never heard about, but it's been nine years, it's been going on for nine years now. It's basically a non profit foundation that offers a fellowship to Red Hook community members, mostly African American because that's the make up of the neighborhood, and gives them all this training in 3D printing, web design, 3D modeling, all of that really good skills they need to have to get work in the tech industry.
Devindra: Was it these kids doing the boats?
Cherlynn : It was largely these kids.
Cherlynn : They were a huge part of the event, most of them were the ones competing in the race and they printed their boats as part of the project.
Devindra: That's cool.
Terrence: You got paired up with ...
Cherlynn : I got paired up with one of them. We eventually didn't print an Engadget boat because whatever.
Terrence: Oh that's a shame.
Cherlynn : I know.
Devindra: That would've been a nice trophy.
Cherlynn : We actually came up with a good name for it too. I ran a poll in our group chat and we decided on Boaty McGadgetface. It was beautiful.
Terrence: Boaty McGadgetface is pretty good.
Cherlynn : It's a very good name. Nate Ingraham, I think came up with it, I think.
Terrence: We need to go back and make this a thing that happens.
Cherlynn : We will. We'll 3D print our own boat. I got paired up with Robert Smith. He was a 21 year old former Digital Steward. It was great. He's complete stranger and I had to immediately be like I'm going to be your partner and help you win this race. We didn't win, we lost within the first minute.
Terrence: Quick question. You got partnered with a 21 year old former Steward and you were competing against people who were how old?
Cherlynn : Of all ages. Don't even. Don't even try to-
Terrence: I thought it was primarily younger like high school [crosstalk 00:21:58]
Cherlynn : No, no. These kids were at least in their late teens.
Cherlynn : I wouldn't think they were-
Dana: Not exactly a game of Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?
Cherlynn : No. Thank God.
Terrence: I feel a little bit better now.
Cherlynn : I would lose that game. I was actually surprised- I was very surprised by the diversity of the people that came out, not only to compete but also to support. I think people get this impression of Red Hook, or at least I used to, of it being, especially after Sandy being very in not the best economically or at least there's a divide. There's people who are very well to do that are trying to make something in the area happen and then there's the people who are just devastated by what happened.
Dana: Red Hook's weird. It was gentrifying and then after Sandy kind of degentrified.
Cherlynn : Yup.
Terrence: Yeah. Yeah.
Devindra: It's in the worst spot. It's just a weird elbow of Brooklyn.
Cherlynn : It's hard to access.
Devindra: Right by the water.
Dana: Right, and not easily accessible by trains.
Devindra: There are no trains there.
Cherlynn : Only the Ikea ferry.
Terrence: That's kind of the big thing I think. Originally when it started gentrifying it was because it's this quiet isolated part of Brooklyn and then once everybody started gentrifying the rest of the borough, it was like part of the contraction is the convenience, which you don't have in Red Hook.
Devindra: Yes. Yeah. Also water- whenever there's water front property it tends to ...
Cherlynn : Do well.
Devindra: Be expensive and there's the Ikea there so everybody likes to go down to that area.
Terrence: It's true, there is an Ikea there.
Devindra: Yeah. Red Hook is a strange neighborhood too because there's a huge concentration of housing projects there and that's the community that's really built up Red Hook for so long. It is really strange to see it being gentrified for a second time, I guess, whereas everyone else who grew up there, who lived there, had no choice.
Dana: I don't know if they had anything to do with this event, but isn't MakerBot also based in Brooklyn, not even that far away from Red Hook?
Cherlynn : Yes. They are-
Dana: Gowanus maybe?
Cherlynn : They're based in MetroTech, the MetroTech Plaza.
Devindra: Straight up. Yeah. Downtown Brooklyn.
Cherlynn : Yeah. Further north. As we're talking about this diversity thing, there was one moment during the event which almost had a hostile tone to it. There was a guy in a kayak who was going out to rescue boats that had lost their way and apparently people were throwing bottles at him from the pier.
Devindra: Oh great.
Cherlynn : I didn't see this, I didn't witness it, but I heard the MC who was commentating the race say that we are hearing reports that people are throwing bottles at the canoeist and please don't do [it 00:24:19], we don't need this energy here, this is not the place for it. I think it stopped afterwards.
I think it was dealt very nicely and I wasn't expecting it. It came out of nowhere. I was like, oh yeah there's still people who don't like all these different types of people coming to their neighborhood.
Devindra: All these things changing.
Cherlynn : And doing all these things to change the- what was cool though was that there was this boat made of garbage. It wasn't a 3D printed boat.
Dana: That's not how I thought you were going to finish that sentence.
Cherlynn : I'm sorry.
Terrence: Made of garbage.
Cherlynn : My train of thought is wild.
Terrence: I think you should quickly set up that there were two separate races.
Cherlynn : Yes.
Terrence: There was the 3D printed boat race, which is what you competed in and then there was a separate race.
Cherlynn : Yeah. It was the DIY aka homemade boat race, in which you didn't have to 3D print your boat, you could make it out of anything. There was this artist called Sam Levine and he had taken a flat plastic wrapper and stuffed it full of trash. There was a sneaker in there, there was a spider that was alive in the thing.
Terrence: Why? Why would you do that?
Cherlynn : I know. I don't think he did it on purpose, he just threw some trash in there and there was actually a spider who's home was [crosstalk 00:25:26]
Devindra: I guess that's better than having a rat because that's usually what's in your trash.
Cherlynn : Oh Lord. I can't. Boat rat. We don't need it.
Devindra: Boat rat.
Terrence: That's better than pizza rat, just going to throw it out there.
Cherlynn : Yeah.
Devindra: Totally our personality.
Dana: I disagree.
Terrence: I'm just going to say this real quick and then we'll move on. Pizza rat is the least impressive meme ever. It carried that piece of pizza for two steps and ran away.
Devindra: Terrence is jealous he did not shoot that video.
Cherlynn : This is why I don't like you. Yeah.
Cherlynn : He's more popular than you, that's why.
Terrence: That's fine [crosstalk 00:25:51]
Devindra: The person who shot that video I think made a lot of money off of it too.
Dana: Oh nice.
Devindra: Off of pizza rat.
Devindra: It's the internet.
Cherlynn : Back to talking about me and my story. Let me finish this thing because I swear I'm making a point.
Terrence: Okay. Go ahead.
Cherlynn : Garbage boat was just beautiful. Everyone, regardless of who you were at the event, everyone cheered it on. It was so great. It was like, the MC was like, guys this is my favorite boat, but he didn't score a single point. I'm sad, I'm sad, but I like you garbage boat. Everyone when they were announcing the point tally at the end of the DIY boat race cheered so loud for garbage boat. It was great.
That's why the story ended up being not necessarily just the DIY boat race competition, because there was the same support shown at the 3D printed boat race, but everyone just was so supportive of each other during the race. I think that was what really made me write the story in the end.
Dana: Also, Apple and Samsung should make their next phones out of garbage.
Cherlynn : It's true.
Dana: Because that's what the people want.
Cherlynn : Yeah.
Terrence: Everybody wants-
Devindra: Samsung already did that.
Dana: Garbage phones.
Cherlynn : Oh.
Cherlynn : Sic burn, and with that …
Terrence: Yeah. I think that is the perfect place to end that and move on.
Terrence: It's time to move on to Group Chat and I think there's only one thing we could possibly talk about this week and that is Monday's presidential debate. So many people watched this thing. It was a ridiculous, ridiculous spectacle for so many different reasons. I want to talk about for one reason in particular. That is it marks the first time in a presidential debate that cyber security was a major point of conversation.
I guess first, let's just get people's thoughts on that. What does this signify to you?
Devindra: It shows the climate right now. It shows that more and more people are being effected by cyber security breaches and the [inaudible 00:27:47] stories have happened, so many things. There's more state sponsored hacking. We're talking about attacks from China and North Korea and stuff too. Yeah. It's more in the culture, it's not just something made for the movies now.
Cherlynn : I think the fact that it's risen to the level of being debated about between the presidential candidates shows how much of an effect this has on everyone. Clearly it concerns everyone and like Devindra said all the NSA leaks and the fact that we were just talking about the Yahoo email breach.
Cherlynn : Goes to show how crazy it's all gotten in the past, what, three, four years honestly.
Terrence: Dana, do you think we're going to hear more about this at the next debate?
Dana: No. I am sort of surprised any time any science or tech topics like this get that much air time. I don't think for a lot of Americans their huge voting issue or their top voting issue. I'm surprised that they get that kind of air time on a national stage at all. Not unpleasantly surprised, it's good, but I don't it for granted.
Devindra: It makes sense that the debate organizers and the person moderating would want to ask those questions because they're journalists typically and they know what's a big deal now too.
Terrence: I guess I'm a little bit less surprised by it, I think because the last couple of years in particular has seen such a number of super high profile hacks. There was ... I'm blanking.
Cherlynn : Target.
Terrence: There's Target, Home Depot.
Cherlynn : Dropbox, LinkedIn.
Terrence: Yeah. There was a couple of health insurance companies too.
Cherlynn : Yes.
Terrence: Aetna was one of them?
Cherlynn : Aetna I think was one of them. We were affected or I was affected by [crosstalk 00:29:35]
Terrence: Were you? Sorry.
Cherlynn : It's okay.
Terrence: Tim Kaine, the vice presidential candidate on the Democratic ticket, his information was caught up in one of those hacks as well. It kind of makes sense to me. I do wonder how much more of an issue it's going to be, though. I'm wondering if this is kind of like, we addressed it briefly and now we're done and we move on.
Devindra: Yeah. The wiser thing would be for us to talk more about this. Part of what was brought up is that the wars of the future won't necessarily just be about typical ground wars, it's a bigger deal. There's the state security.
Terrence: I think that's a really interesting point. I think this is a good moment to pause it real quick and play Hillary Clinton's response in particular. Before we play this clip of her response, I do want to read, the way the question was phrased by Lester Holt, which not surprisingly, considering it's a presidential debate this is usually how it works, it is an incredibly broad question. Just to get a sense of context for where these responses fit in, he says ... I'm cutting out a lot of the fluff around it. He says, "Our institutions are under cyber attack and our secrets are being stolen, so my question is, who's behind it and how do we fight it?" Which is an insanely broad thing.
Cherlynn : Yeah.
Devindra: What do you know?
Terrence: Nobody could possibly answer in two minutes.
Dana: I have some thoughts on that I want to come back to, but play your clip.
Terrence: Okay. Let's play the clip of Hillary Clinton's response first.
Hillary Clinton: We need to make it very clear, whether it's Russia, China, Iran, or anybody else, the United States has much greater capacity and we are not going to sit idly by and permit state actors to go after our information, or private sector information or our public sector information. We're going to have to make it clear that we don't want to use the kinds of tools that we have, we don't want to engage in a different kind of warfare, but we will defend the citizens of this country. The Russians need to understand that.
Terrence: She puts it in very specific terms that are different, I think, than a lot of the ways that we're used to talking about cyber security, in that it's very weaponized and very much focused on warfare.
Cherlynn : It's very Cold War-ey.
Terrence: Yeah. It almost sounds like she's talking about nuclear armament in some ways.
Terrence: You swap out the word cyber for nuclear.
Cherlynn : Yeah.
Devindra: We're hearing more and more of that this year. I had an interview with Alex Gibney, the documentarian, he wrote about the Stuxnet thing. The big thing he's pushing and even Oliver Stone, when I was talking to him around the Snowden movie, cyber weapons right now are completely, it's the Wild West. We don't have any sort of dialogue between countries. Anything could happen. There are no rules. The thing about nuclear weapons, I think after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there was a discussion, there was an international discussion like hey guys, this will destroy the planet so let's start to talk about and manage this somehow. We don't have that yet for cyber security, even though it can do as much damage. It can shut down power grids, it can do all sorts of things to actual physical locations now.
Dana: It's the Wild West I agree, and I think accordingly most people are not therefore good at talking about these sort of things. It's easy to make fun of some of Trump's [pulled 00:32:59] quotes, which we probably will before the hour is up.
Devindra: For sure.
Terrence: We have a clip of him we're going to play next.
Dana: I don't think Lester Holt's question was that specific or as articulate as he could've been. I don't even know if I'm as articulate as I always can be when I'm talking about security. I don't think Congress necessarily understands the technological side of it. I think we're talking about how Clinton and Trump discussed the issue, what language they used, maybe evaluating their understanding, I think they're representative of a larger problem, which is that most people do not understand the technological side of it and most people are not good at talking about this.
Cherlynn : I think that Dana has a point there, like when Hillary was saying those things, she sounds like she was guaranteeing mutually assured destruction. It's very strong language, but at the same time, I don't think that the best defense against someone or the best reaction to a breach or a hack from another state, is to say we'll come after your information too. I think you should be defending your information better, you should be making it harder for them to infiltrate your content. This isn't like a piece of land, this is something that once they get to, it could affect so many other things.
Terrence: It's in many ways reflective of one of the many criticisms that's levied against Hillary Clinton, especially from the left and a lot of the people who supported Bernie, which is she is very hawkish, especially for a member of the Democratic party. She represents a much more hawkish wing of the party. I think that colors the way she discusses it because again it's that mutually assured destruction kind of thing, like don't you worry about it, you think you have weapons, we have weapons too and they're bigger and better and they will wreck you.
Terrence: I do want to take issue with one thing you said which is that you're saying it's not a piece of land and you have to think about it differently, which yes, but in this more modern global connected world and economy, is that information at the end of the day ultimately as valuable if not more valuable than land itself.
Cherlynn : Oh I'm not saying it's not as valuable, I'm saying it's more, I'm saying it could impact more things. Therefore you can't just wait for it to be attacked and then go out after someone who attacked it. You have to defend it like it's your life.
Devindra: That does sound sort of like what's she saying is the thing too. I also wonder, Hillary's always been described as hawkish, her support for the Iraq War, I don't think she'll ever be able to live down. I'm surprised they didn't bring up more of that during the debates. I also feel like she has to sound strong like this because she has to ...
Dana: I have questions too about what else would either candidate have said. These lines, I think she was very articulate and well prepared, but this idea of just generally we will not tolerate attacks on our sensitive information in the private sector, in the government sector. I think both candidates had to say something like that. What would have made this a more valuable conversation do you think? Would it have been specific solutions beyond that?
Terrence: I think specific solutions would've been useful. The thing that we have to accept unfortunately about a venue like this is the presidential debate format is not constructed for actual detailed policy debates.
Dana: Not at all.
Cherlynn : Yeah. There's not enough time.
Terrence: It's more about talking points and making your opponent look bad.
Dana: This is one of the more complex issues. They're all complex issues, but this is complicated.
Terrence: This is a very complex issue. I do want to agree with you 100 percent that Lester Holt's questions, as much as I'm going to say honestly, I thought he did a decent enough job moderating-
Devindra: Second half.
Dana: When he reentered the building.
Devindra: Yeah. He went for a coffee break.
Terrence: He wasn't great, but he did an okay job. I'm certainly not going to beat him up over it.
Devindra: He needs a buzzer. He needs a buzzer.
Cherlynn : He should've had your buzzer. Yep. Literally what I was about to say.
Terrence: He should've had my buzzer.
Dana: An air horn.
Terrence: That question in particular was one that bothered me because it was so broad and so non specific. Especially the who is responsible part, which is so highly non specific because what are you talking about?
Terrence: Who is responsible for what?
Cherlynn : For what? Which one?
Terrence: What attack?
Devindra: Which attack.
Cherlynn : I will say Hillary answered well.
Devindra: Yeah. Listing Russia, which has been consistently blamed for a lot of the attacks on the Democrats right now and even I think just a couple days ago we heard of another one. That's their enemy right now.
Cherlynn : She used it to spin towards Trump encouraging Putin to [crosstalk 00:37:33]
Devindra: That's a one two punch.
Cherlynn : great. Beautiful.
Terrence: Yeah I agree. She did do a very excellent job of going after him in that- once again, not super policy oriented, not like great conversation about how you actually do something, but 100 percent effective debating.
I do want to come to Trump's defense about one thing real quick though.
Terrence: This'll probably be the only time I ever do this. He is kind of right though to question whether or not we can say Russia is 100 percent behind this stuff. While the intelligence agencies do kind of come to an agreement that Russia is most likely, there's a huge problem with attribution when it comes to attacks and hacks, especially state sponsored ones. I will, in the description for this, drop a link to a great piece by Violet Blue, one of our columnists, about the problems with attribution and how, even at the end of the day if somebody says they're fairly confident, that's still not good enough to hang anything legally around anybody's neck for the most part. Yeah.
Devindra: I wish he had said that though, instead of trying to soften the blow.
Dana: Make it about the guys sitting on their bed who weighs 400 pounds.
Cherlynn : 400 pounds.
Terrence: Yeah. Why don't we play this?
Devindra: Oh man. His supporters. That's all his supporters.
Cherlynn : We need to hear this.
Terrence: Let's play this clip real quick and then we'll talk about Trump's answer to this question.
Cherlynn : For those watching us watching this, good luck.
Donald Trump: Look at the mess that we're in. As far as the cyber, I agree to parts of what Secretary Clinton said. We should be better than anybody else, and perhaps we're not. I don't think anybody knows it was Russia that broke into the DNC. She's saying Russia, Russia, Russia. Maybe it was. It could be Russia, but it could also be China, it could also be lots of other people. It also could be somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds, okay?
Devindra: And 4Chan explodes.
Cherlynn : Of course.
Dana: Let's leave the morbidly obese people out of this, okay?
Devindra: Yes for sure.
Terrence: No, no, no. I want to come- I'm going to skip over the cyber, which is the really easy one, which honestly look. It sounds dumb, but it's a gaffe. Hillary said dumb things before, George Bush had [nucular 00:39:44]
Devindra: He only called it cyber.
Cherlynn : [Nucular 00:39:46]
Terrence: [crosstalk 00:39:47] internets.
Devindra: It's not even just the cyber, it's cyber.
Devindra: Cyber means something when you use it on your own.
Cherlynn : I know. [shhh 00:39:52]
Terrence: Yeah. It's very ... We all know.
Devindra: Trump doesn't.
Cherlynn : He does. Oops.
Terrence: We didn't play this part of the response, but immediately what comes- not immediately, but shortly after he talks about the people sitting on their bed who weigh 400 pounds who could be hacking into it, he also talks about his son who's 10 years old who knows the computers really well.
Terrence: It's just for so many reasons an alarming answer.
Devindra: It's going to be his tech head, his son.
Terrence: He's so good with the computers you wouldn't believe.
Devindra: This is just like Idiocracy too. That's how this all ended up.
Cherlynn : I didn't take as much issue with the thing he said about his son as I did the 400 pound comment. It shows how clueless he is. It shows me first of all he doesn't watch Mr. Robot, but also that he clearly has these stereotypes etched into his head of certain characters. He thinks it's a bunch of people in their dens.
Dana: I just think it underscores a bigger dynamic with him which is that he sees all of this as entertainment and he sees his purpose is to entertain us when it's not really officially [crosstalk 00:41:11]
Devindra: How do you debate against the Joker?
Cherlynn : I hope that it is. I hope that's what it is because I don't think that's what he really thinks.
Devindra: Also to this day I don't think anybody's seen Trump use a computer. I think that's the ongoing thing. Does he know how to use a computer, can he internet? Who knows?
Terrence: Actually, is that a thing? I don't know that I've actually ever seen that.
Devindra: It's a thing. All the press photos of his office, there's no computers in his office. Maybe occasionally he'll have a phone, but we've never seen him on a computer I think. I think a couple sites are doing that.
Cherlynn : I wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if he can't internet. That's where a lot of people get their information these days and he's the least informed person I know.
Dana: I think he can internet.
Cherlynn : Yeah?
Dana: My mom can internet.
Terrence: I also just want to say that we are speaking Trump's language right now by using internet as a verb.
Devindra: Internet. Yeah. It's a virus.
Cherlynn : [inaudible 00:41:55]
Dana: We're doing it somewhat ironically.
Terrence: Oh no, no, no, we're 100 percent doing it ironically.
Dana: Oh yeah.
Cherlynn : Like your beard.
Terrence: This is not ironic. This is a thing of beauty.
Cherlynn : Okay.
Devindra: That's real.
Terrence: This is all real. I like that you have to look away from me as I stroke my beard.
Cherlynn : Oh my God. No I didn't even know that was what you were doing.
Terrence: Let's turn away from my beard which is completely off topic.
Cherlynn : Yeah. Let's go. I'm sorry. Yes. My bad.
Terrence: I do want to come back to one thing real quick though, and a little bit of plug for our site. Our presidential guide, which we updated ahead of the debate so there's now information, not just new information about Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, but there's information on Jill Stein and Gary Johnson and their stances on things. Although I can sum up Gary Johnson's stances on pretty much every issue in one sentence which is let the market decide.
Terrence: If that's your thing, that's your candidate, but there's very little detail there. We'll be updating it again with information on the vice presidential candidates ahead of that debate. I do want to encourage everybody to go read that and look at the updates. Going into the primary season when we first put this thing together, cyber security was one of these big glaring holes where there was very little information about what the candidates thought for the most part. One of the few exceptions weirdly was Chris Christie. It turns out that cyber security is apparently much more of an issue and something that people are much more active in at the state level than at the federal level.
Terrence: Tim Kaine actually fairly active on the topic of cyber security, Chris Christie was fairly active on the topic of cyber security whereas most of the senators and stuff were not. Hillary Clinton was one of the people who had this big glaring hole and in the wake of the email scandal it was very much a weak point for her. She has since released several very detailed white papers about a lot of her policies, but in particularly she does touch on cyber security a lot. We've updated that with a link to the full policy paper as well as quotes from that and plans from that that you should go read because it's super important information, it's super interesting and she has ideas and plans that she literally just doesn't get to touch on in the debate.
Devindra: For sure. The important thing too is these aren't people who are going to be leading all on their own. It's not just them it's about who they hire and who they listen to. My bigger worry is that Trump is just so intellectually uncurious, like he doesn't care and he doesn't care about what experts or advisors will say either. Yeah. That's the state of America today.
Terrence: Dana do you have any final thoughts on the debate and Hillary Clinton, cyber security, Donald Trump before we sign off?
Dana: We have a weekend of peace and then the next one is what, Sunday October 9th?
Cherlynn : Mm-hmm (affirmative) October 9th is the next one.
Terrence: I believe the vice presidential debate is October 4th I believe. That's coming up soon.
Dana: That'll be interesting. Okay.
Cherlynn : Can I just quickly jump in and say that this really interesting that this is the first debates I've been able to watch because it was on Twitter and it was on YouTube and it was on all these different channels.
Devindra: Yeah. It broke streaming records for YouTube.
Cherlynn : Kind of [inaudible 00:45:08] too right?
Devindra: 85 million-
Dana: Do you not own a TV?
Cherlynn : I don't.
Dana: What? Discussion for a different day.
Terrence: It's not that weird.
Devindra: It makes sense.
Terrence: Yeah. I don't have TV either.
Dana: What is wrong with you guys?
Cherlynn : We're not friends just because of that Terrence.
Terrence: I'm not saying we're friends, I'm just saying-
Devindra: Meanwhile, i have so many TVs.
Terrence: I haven't had cable for-
Devindra: That's fine. That's fine.
Terrence: Six years.
Devindra: Sling has changed a lot.
Cherlynn : Yeah. True.
Terrence: Yeah. I've been relying on Netflix and Hulu for six years now.
Cherlynn : Yeah. I hope the vice presidential ones will also be streamed online.
Devindra: Everything is going to be streamed at this point. That's good.
Cherlynn : Excellent.
Terrence: I want to see more of what Bloomberg did with their live fact checking on the screen[inaudible 00:45:43]
Devindra: That was cool.
Cherlynn : Yeah. That was so great.
Terrence: I think this is one thing that was argued about and we'll lead up to it, whether or not it's the media's job to be fact checking things. Yes. Yes it is.
Cherlynn : Duh.
Terrence: That is our role.
Cherlynn : How is that a question?
Terrence: If we have one and only function in this world, it's to fact check.
Devindra: If you want to live in a non fact based society, then yeah facts are bad.
Cherlynn : Then go to The Onion. I don't know.
Terrence: Devindra any last thoughts on the election or debates before we say goodbye?
Devindra: I have so many thoughts. Yeah. I'm good. I'm done. I'm done.
Terrence: You good? All right. Devindra, where can the fine people find you on the internet?
Devindra: I'm on Twitter at @Devindra and I also podcast about movies and TV at slashfilm.com
Dana: I am @DanaWollman on Twitter. That's my full name with no space. As I always say, be nice.
Cherlynn : I am @CherlynnLow on Twitter.
Devindra: Let's not forget that Cherlynn, how she judged that one debate.
Cherlynn : Wow Devindra. Wow.
Devindra: Let's just send all the comments-
Cherlynn : Just a reminder, he's a sore loser clearly.
Terrence: I am @TerrenceOBrien, lots of e's no a's, on Twitter. As always, thank you for watching. Please send us your questions, comments, concerns, any feedback. You can hit us up on Twitter @Engadgetpodcast, or email us at podcast@engadget, or just send all your hate mail direct to Cherlynn. Thank you for watching.
Cherlynn : See I always get targeted.
Terrence: Thank you for watching. Make sure to join us next week where we'll have plenty more. Before we go I want to leave you with the comment of the week which comes from MNC77024. Hell of a name guy. "I wanted to track my horniness and my ability to make cornbread."
Devindra: You sure you didn't comment that?
Terrence: I'm pretty sure.
Cherlynn : Your name. Jesus.