Creative declares war on Apple

These could turn out to be some very famous last words, but at a press conference earlier today Sim Wong Hoo, the CEO of Creative (the company that makes all those Zen MP3 players like the Zen Touch and the Zen Micro) literally declared war on Apple, announcing plans to try to out-spend and out-market Steve Jobs next year with a $100 million advertising and marketing designed to dethrone the iPod, and that "the MP3 war has started". Might be tough, given that over 90% of new hard drive-based players sold in the US sport an Apple logo, but we're always game for a down and dirty gadget war.

[Via MacWorld]

[Ryan @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

I really just like the iPod interface way too much to purchase anything else. Apple has the style, interface, and technology. Everyone else in the .mp3 "war" is a follower.

[asher @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Two MP3 players enter, one MP3 player leave.Two MP3 players enter, one MP3 player leave.
Two MP3 players enter, one MP3 player leave.

THUNDERPOD!

[Jonathan @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

You are a friggin idiot. Why would you spend twice as much for a product that functions the same as cheaper ones based solely on its style. It's design might come into play, but the new players from creative are relatively the same dimensions as the ipod.

[MGB @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Why not just lower the price $100....that would convince me to buy one...

[Jonathan @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

You are a friggin idiot. Why would you spend twice as much for a product that functions the same as cheaper ones based solely on its style. It's design might come into play, but the new players from creative are relatively the same dimensions as the ipod.

[Mark @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

In other news, East Timor declared war on the United States of America.

PS: This is only good for consumers. Can't wait to see prices fall, storage capacity rise, and capabilities get better and better.

[Brian Behrend @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Jonathan, a couple of things:

It's not just about style, but it definitely matters. More important to me is the interface and usability of the thing. Right now, nothing comes close to the iPod in that department. Also, the 20 GB iPod is only $50 more (MSRP) than the 20 GB Zen Touch, not tiwce as much. Also the iPod weighs 5.6 ounces while the Zen Touch weighs 7 ounces.

[rob @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

The user experience is superior on the iPod.

There are two problems that a portable jukebox must solve: getting the songs onto the device, and managing them once they are on the device. Apple has solved these problems in the most elegant ways. Media Player is getting there, but MusicMatch just blows. Price will drive some people away, but I doubt it will be as large a differential as the mac/pc split, because most of the external forces that work against the mac (inertia, cross-compatibility) aren't present in the music player market. Apple has even gained some ground in the inertia department since they are so far ahead of everyone else.

Apple's going to win this one, if they can stay the course.

[Michael @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

iTunes is definitely NOT the most elegant way to get music on a player. Having it show up as a HD is the way to go.

[Chris @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Jonathan,

Although you and I, and most of the readers here, understand the limitations to the iPod, the mass of zombies, whom we will never be able to outspend, don't. Thus, cr-apple will rein supreme until some one else offers more for significantly less.

I, personally, would be more apt to pay to see the two CEO's step into the ring...or better yet, the Octagon.

[Dan Bailey @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Wow...this ranks right up there with 1939 -- the Polish Calvary declaring war against the German Panzer Divisions.

[Phil @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Gee, why not spend that $100 million on developing a superior device, with superior software, and a smaller form factor, and built-in wi-fi and built-in podcasting support rather than flapping your gums and throwing your money into the wind, Mr. Hoo.

[Kevin Lim @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

CREATIVE (not really creative actually...) should just put the advertising money into savings on the Zen... after all from the looks of things, the true feature Creative devices has against Apple iPods is it's price. I love my iPod, and I'm sure those who dig the holistic design would too. Those who can't afford it though, could go with the next best thing... the Creative Zen.

[Perry @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

iTunes is the best library and ripping tool for normal folks. I quite like AAC - plays on my Nokia just fine. Most of the places I go have iPods prices about the same as their copies - Creative, iRiver, RCA. If the small price difference bothers you, ask the sales person for an open box return.

People vote with the wallets. iPod is more than just style - if style was the reason for its success, why hasn't the Mac taken 90% market share? This is about function - and the iPod is is easist to use. The sync feature is the killer app.

When you dealing with 15 gb of music, and adding to it all the time, it is easier to let iTunes keep thing sorted. If you are really that stupid as to want to waste your time, you can do it manually - the iPod can be treated as a volume like any other drive.

[Noah @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

lol how does Creative intend to outsell iPods, they have a like 4 million sale head start.

Apple already have a MASSIVE iPod user/fan base across the world, what makes Creative think that people are just gonna drop their iPods and buy something that looks really similar, and is probably not as good (scrolling through thousands of songs on that pad? No way, the round iPods ones are way better, it's quicker and won't streign your thumb).

However, I do like this MP3 player, it does look pretty good, and if I didnt have 2 iPods, i'd probably get one

�the MP3 war has started� - hahaha, a bit late, the iPod has been out for years, Creative should have made this player from the beginning, then maybe they would have had a better chance.

[Jonathan @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Musicmatch does fine with keeping things organized on my Muvo2. I just feel that people have jumped on a fashionable bandwagon. Unfortunately for you all who are arguing, Creative has been in this game way longer than Apple, and when things are said and done, they will prevail. The mp3 arena is just a way to get into the current mix, as Creative already has a Portable Media Center in the market. I want to see Apple catch up after releasing an iPod photo (honestly, what is the use of this?). Give me a player that will play all my media.

[Jonathan @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Musicmatch does fine with keeping things organized on my Muvo2. I just feel that people have jumped on a fashionable bandwagon. Unfortunately for you all who are arguing, Creative has been in this game way longer than Apple, and when things are said and done, they will prevail. The mp3 arena is just a way to get into the current mix, as Creative already has a Portable Media Center in the market. I want to see Apple catch up after releasing an iPod photo (honestly, what is the use of this?). Give me a player that will play all my media.

[Abe @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Michael,
Not sure about other jukebox software, but with iTunes I can create a bunch of playlists, then hook up my little RCA Lyra flash player (iPod is coming this Christmas) and drag and drop my playlists right from iTunes to my Lyra's mapped drive. To me, that's pretty elegant.

[Sebhelyesfarku @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Any player is better than the p.o.s. iPod if plays mp3s gaplessly.

[Fonze @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

I think the reason the iPod is so popular is because of ignorance. People think the other players have such amazing usability because they either haven't used any of the other players, or they had one bad experience because they were using the wrong product. Music Match is not the way to go for managing and syncing music with an mp3 player, Windows Media Player 10 is. WMP10 has all of the syncing features of iTunes, is easy to use for managing your music, and even lets you buy new music from a range of music stores from within the player. A nice feature, for people with less than perfect ID3 tags, lets you search for media information based off a song name and other criteria to find out where the song came from, then tag it with the proper artist, album, etc.
The problem is that WMP10 is only afew months old and companies aren't quick to jump on the technology bandwagon, although they have started jumping on the Playsforsure bandwagon which is a certification that says their product will work together with other playsforsure products, such as microsoft's MSN music store, WMP10, and any other software/hardware that gets certified as compatible

[christopher wanko @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Apparently dealing in facts is pass?

The success of the iPod is the combination of its parts, not the superiority of any single one.

Their technology *certainly* is not superior to its competitors; arguing this is a sure sign of ignorance. Their UI, however, is clearly superior because it is extremely accessible for neophytes gadget users. The ability to manage your music directly on the iPod (to some extent) is amplified by the design decision to use the scroll wheel. No one is claiming Apple invented the scroll wheel, portable music players, or intuitive UIs (Apple is as much a thief of UI design as Microsoft).

However, the blend is near-perfect. And it has something other devices do not: a kind of exclusivity that gains you status among the non-technical, which is larger than the technical population and therefore the one that really matters when it comes to market share.

Yes, we all congratulate ourselves on knowing about Archos and iRiver. Readers of this blog do not need the religion preached to us. The masses, however, want the equivalent of a toaster when they buy something: intuitive controls, a limited amount of function done well, and a clean exterior.

When Creative gets that, Creative will catch up, but unless it finds a way to completely leapfrog Apple (and that's an unpredictable event), it will never beat Apple in this space.

Or it will.

[Grover Cleveland @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

I feel like I need to go pee

[Joey @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

I have owned a creative zen xtra 60 gig for almost a year, and it really is a pretty amazing product will only a couple of significant provisos. It is big, (required by the fact that it uses a comparatively fat but extremely fast notebook harddrive), heavy, and therefore, a little bulky. It has a easily removable and replacable battery that equals or beats the ipods in performance. Anyone who has seen the facts has to admit the undeniably better sound quality of the majority of creative's players due to their expertise in sound cards. And the little half wheel is a little hard to get used to (although it is sturdy enough to make me believe it would last longer than the click wheel on the new ipod). But anybody who discounts these factors and gets into the UI in depth would have to admit that it is equal to or surpasses the ipod. Any of the software features that you can now do on the ipod the creative has been able to do for far longer and usually more capably (for example, on-the-go playlists).

The secret for creative to beat the ipod is fairly simple, although it is going to cost some money. Keep the same intuitive UI with only refinements and additions (not the deletions of features that they have done on players such as the Touch) but add interface enhancements such as the touch pad, a remote port, and a line in port (which apple has stubbornly refused to add to the ipod), and keep the price near the amazingly low price that it is at now compared to the ipod, and they will blow the ipod out of the water.

[Vanilla Spice @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

See, Chris and Jonathan are part of an educated elite, who know far more about mp3 players that anyone else. I mean, if they don't like the iPod, then people who buy it MUST be "zombies" - they sure as heck couldn't be buying it because it is (for them) a superior product.

Get off your high horses you two, this "I don't like it so, so it is objectively inferior" attitude is ridiculously egocentric, and it ignores the facts that we do have:

* iPods outsell everything else (by far)
* they get rave reviews from critics and consumers alike
* the UI and scroll-wheel are widely admired

(I am not arguing the iPod is universally superior - its an audio player, so impressions of it are going to be subjective! One player is not universally "the best", but one might be "the best" for you.)

So just how is it that you two have somehow "discovered" the inferiority of the iPod when everyone else has missed it? You do understand you are not the only people in the world who can make informed purchases of technology, don't you ?

Besides, after reading Engadget, BoingBoing, et al, these last couple of months, I am convinced the "zombies" are those who attack the iPod at any opportunity, without any informed argument. Or indeed, those who attack Apple because they broke just one of the many methods of getting music back out of the iPod.

[Kapila Wimalaratne @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

The mp3 war is about a lot more than just the player. Apple already integrates perfectly to the best desktop mp3 player (iTunes) and online music store (iTunes music store) in the world.

Stupidest declaration of war I've ever heard.

Kap

[Craig @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

I did quite a bit of research before purchasing either of the two mp3 players I�ve owned. I had the Creative Nomad Jukebox 3 40gb -- it was a great player, perhaps the best when it debuted. It sounded great and had gapless playback, but it wasn�t every user-friendly. I recently bought a 40gb iPod, and while it doesn�t sound quite as good and it doesn�t support gapless playback, it is much easier to use (esp with one hand, in the car). But the two reasons I really like it are not matched by any other player: its size and storage capacity. Nobody makes a decent player that�s anywhere near the size of the iPod, and many companies don�t even offer a 40gb model (including Creative, with its new Zen Touch). And the iRiver is too bulky with its control knob. Even if the Zen does sound marginally better, why in the hell would I buy a bulkier player with less storage capacity? Creative needs to take care of these two issues before I even begin considering its other features.

[Junwei @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Sim Wong Who? I feel so ashamed being a Singaporean! Creative, the company of rippers.

[John @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Convincing people not to buy ipods is the equivalent of telling an Internet newbie not to use AOL. It just won't happen. Back when I bought my 20GB Zen Nomad, an ipod of equal capacity was $50 more. The size different wasn't really all that important to me. I liked being able to fast forward/rewind & adjust volume without having to take my player out of my pocket (yes, shockingly, this "bulky" player fits in my pockets). While they made it slightly more difficult with the Zen Micro, I refuse to be so obnoxious as to hold out my mp3 player in public. That's the one thing which pegs the ipod with the label of status symbol device - too many people want to show off with it.

Chris and Jonathan are indeed part of an educated elite. When they see someone showing off their ipod, they see someone bragging about overpaying AOL for their Internet access.

[Craig @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

The point i was trying to make earlier (and i probably tried to do so in too many words) is that you can make an educated choice and end up buying an ipod. There is no lesser known player that does everything better. and just because you take out your ipod to change tracks doesn't necessarily mean you're showing it off (wearing it on your belt, on the other hand...)

[Zoidberg @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Um, nobody here is part of an elite due to what portable music player you own. What about all those people who think that those using something that JUST plays music are stupid because a Portable Windows Media Center can do everything. Same people who say everybody should dump the standalone PDA and get a Smartphone.

I really can't stand people on both sides. "I'm better than you because I have an iPod!" "I'm better than you because I'm smart enough to not get an iPod!"

It's PERSONAL PREFERANCE PEOPLE!!! Come on now! Why don't we start the same old mac vs pc argument?? I have an iPod and I PREFUR it because a)It's incredibly easy to use b)I use the iTunes Music Store c)I'm a Mac User and d)It's got Apple's great simplistic style. I like it because it has what I need and none of what I don't. Overpriced? I don't think so. Am I part of a cultural elite because of my iPod? Of course not, but I am very happy with my purchase.

The only person I would think of as elite is someone who actually builds their own device (or hacks one or more devices to their needs). The rest of us are just users. Deal.

[Rob @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Creative wouldn't need to "declare war" on iPod if their MP3 players weren't so crappy to begin with. As someone who used to own a Creative MP3 player, I'll admit the sound quality is superb, and the interface is fine. But the headphone jacks on their players are extremely fragile, break very easily, and - as I learned the hard way after sending mine back (out of warranty at that point) - cannot be repaired. Perhaps the 90-day warranty should have told me something. What's even worse is that Creative has known about this problem with its headphone jacks for years, and hasn't done a thing about it. The player I bought in mid-2002 broke after half a year, yet according to customer reviews on Amazon or almost anywhere else (just try a Google search on creative mp3 headphone jack), many other owners are still having the EXACT same problem with later models, TWO YEARS LATER. What does that say about Creative? I'm sure they probably will cut into iPod's market a little bit with an aggressive advertising campaign, but maybe they should actually try making a good product first, for a change.

[joe future @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

People who buy iPods don't think about value. They care more about image than functionality. They're probably either under-confident geeks with money to spend on a fast track to "cool", or preppy middle-to-upper class professionals who buy it cause all their rich friends bought one.

[Whiteshaft @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Well Joe, as annoying as it is to have to point this out to you, the iPod is a good value. And it functions very well. I don't know where you live but the "fast track to cool" is paved with designer threads and sports cars around here; compared to all that bling $250 is not much to spend. Yes it's become the accessory du jour but that will change when the next bright shiny thing comes along. But it wouldn't be so "cool" if it didn't work well. If style always trumped functionality (or vice-versa) then we would all be using Cubes (or still stuck with ugly beige boxes). Clearly the iPod has managed to marry both concepts to some degree, or else it would not be as successful as it is.

[silence @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

"advertising and marketing"? maybe they mistyped and it should read as "research and development", huh?

[John @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

For those who refuse to believe that ipods are overpriced, take a look at the price of the 40GB drive on apple's store

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?family=iPod

and compare it to a 20, 30, and 40GB Zen Xtra

http://us.creative.com/shop/shopcategory.asp?category=213#214

then tell me with a straight face that it's still a good value for something other than aesthetics.

[Whiteshaft @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

It weighs less, the software is better, and it isn't the size of a small book. It's not about COST it's about VALUE.

[S. Connolly @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

"...The player I bought in mid-2002 broke after half a year, yet according to customer reviews on Amazon or almost anywhere else (just try a Google search on creative mp3 headphone jack), many other owners are still having the EXACT same problem with later models, TWO YEARS LATER. What does that say about Creative?..."

The Apple iPod has a few long-time problems that they haven't corrected yet as well. The music skips when the HDD initializes. This problem is even appearant in the "new" iPod Photo which can be found for around US$600 for the 60GB version. "Wow"

[mejesster @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

The iPod, featurewise, is behind other players. I agree that it is an excellent player, and for the neophyte it both attractive and functional, but often, for those who are more computer/gadget literate, a better portable audio device can be found at a better price. Me, I'm a fan of the Neuros ( http://www.neurosaudio.com ) for its pure focus on functionality. I rip to ogg and flac, I want gapless playback, I want my music to be DRM free, I want my device to be easily accessible from any computer, I want high quality audio, and so the iPod is not right for me.

[mejesster @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

The iPod, featurewise, is behind other players. I agree that it is an excellent player, and for the neophyte it both attractive and functional, but often, for those who are more computer/gadget literate, a better portable audio device can be found at a better price. Me, I'm a fan of the Neuros ( http://www.neurosaudio.com ) for its pure focus on functionality. I rip to ogg and flac, I want gapless playback, I want my music to be DRM free, I want my device to be easily accessible from any computer, I want high quality audio, and so the iPod is not right for me.

[Patrick @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

It's not about price or features to most people, it's about style and branding. iPod sometimes isn't about the player itself anymore, but a social status icon.

The Creative brand simply isn't synonymous with style, it's just another computer hardware manufacturer. Look at the ridiculous expensive and posh Apple stores in every major city. You can sell the iPod brand name beside and it would match. Creative? Maybe Wal-Mart.

[Eric @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

ipods, once state of the art have failed to come down in price and newer models have added very little in functionality. Competition in the portable audio market has already produced superior products at lower cost such as the zen on the. Apple better do something quick (besides make more Bono commercials) before their handheld goes on life support to join its dying computer and software divisions.

[Roger @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Odd that nobody else seems to have commented on this:

Isn't it ironic that the company "declaring war" against the iPod is named "Creative Labs".

Now THATS funny.

More like "You-go-out-and-spend-a-huge-pile-of money-developing-an-incredible-product-and-then we'll-copy-it Labs".


People, at the risk of sounding like I'm evangelizing Apple here, listen up.

Apple has spent tons of money over the years developing new technologies; innovative products; trend-setting devices. Some have been winners (like the iPod). Others have failed (like the Newton).

Innovation and development are what Apple is all about. And this is key here:

ITS NOT CHEAP TO DO THIS.

That's one reason why Apple products cost more. That's also why BMWs cost more than Buicks.

If you want to slam people for owning an iPod because its trendy- go ahead, but I think you're probably wrong in many cases.

Apple products stand up to use. Hard use, too.


They are also highly USABLE. Yeah, those of you who pride yourself in your ability to figure out a more complicated device can slap yourselves on the back all you want. Meanwhile, Apple will continue to sell iPods by the semi- tractor trailer load.

[Eric of Digital M4 - Songzilla @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

iPod versus the world!

Apple has a great history of designing good interfaces and putting lots of time and innovation into styling. Who else could make a computer cool?

Personally, I think everyone should own a Ferrari - but idiots that we are, we end up spending money on other things with much less panache. Like groceries. So fundamentals like cost and functionality come into play.

The iPod is cool, but I think it's ultimately doomed to be no better than No.1, unless Apple, or someone else, kidnaps the digital music scene via DRM.

Forecast final scores (assuming Apple makes all the right moves):

Market Share Forecast
Apple 53%
2nd brand 31%
3rd brand 9%
All other brands 7%

However, this assumes Apple will, when the market requires it and without delay, lower its prices to stay within a reasonable percent of the "inferior" products.

Also, if it becomes a protocol / platform war (MP3 v. AAC v. WMA v. ATRAC v. ...) it will be hard to remain a strong offering if one's choosen protocols slip below 50% of the total market.

[Anyway, that's what I think - off the cuff]

/Eric

[Kwiter Ker @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

I find it funny that folks are arguing about "Style" and paying more for iPod.

Look to MANY things to see this.

Piaget Vs Rolex Watch Vs Timex all tell time , one costs ALOT more than another

Bentley Vs Hugo Both will get you around but one is much more pricey and "user friendly" than the other

Simply put some folks will pay for what they want or think they want and others will not. I DO NOT own an iPod, can't justify the $$$, if $$$ was not an issue I CERTAINLY would have one instead of a Timex TMX2 Wristwatch MP3 player, Creative Muvo 128 and just got a 10 gig Creative Jukebox($35 HD is corrupted and needs some work)
Might get a Shuffle but not sure, want one just to avoid converting my Audible Books to MP3's as it's a hassle.

[Marian @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

I would consider buying a Creative product only if it costs at most 60% of the corresponding Apple product.
But Creative is greedy...

A lot of people don't understand why iPod is more expensive then "similar" products. One reason: people buy it even if is so expesive, so why Apple bother lowering the price?

[Tonka @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

To all people that call creative "the copycat": Creative had HDD-based mp3 players long before iPod. I guess if you think design is the pinnacle of innovation, then yes - Apple is the innovator and Creative the copycat. If, on the other hand, you believe original technologies constitute innovation then Creative is the innovator (kudos to Apple for the 'wheel', though).

I think Creative misjudged the market believing functionality and low price will prevail. Not so - people shell out a lot of money for style and don't really care about things like sound quality etc. if they are at all acceptable. I mean, most people can't really tell the difference between 192kbps mp3s and PCMs (CDs). (to pre-empt any discussion, we did a blind test using same setups and yes, they are distinguishable).

[muikano @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

ipod vs. everyone else.
Clearly a case where design trumps features...or is it?

For god's sake, it's a good design and its really not that Ipod has the better machine;its that its competitors arent any better!

Rio's been bankrupt 3 times, doesnt support Asian Fonts. Has no idea what its doing.

Creative has been in the market for how long?

You know why Apple is so successful? it can withstand RIAA nonsense. It can negotiate with Big Record companies--any other company would have compromised the integrity of their business by introducing new fangled crap. Much as i love SD cards, their nothing but the second generation of cheap nand flash.

Give me cheap storage, copyright be damned.

[Fiona @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

Creative has been around in the market longer than apples advertising would care for you to realise. Thinking about it - I know more people whos mp3 players are non-ipods (creative being the most popular!) than are actually ipods. and i must say - I prefer mine (zen micro) to the ipod - although yes, a seemingly similar design, the zen is easier to handle when you can't be bothered moving your finger precisely!!
apple lower the price as they know they HAVE competition now.. creative has more products and they're coming into force harder!!

[whatever_dude @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

it's amazing that so many people believe that the ipod predates other "copycat" players...my nomad jukeboxes were bought LONG before any snot-nosed kid ever heard of an ipod. i remember showing my jukeboxes to my friends who were still carrying CD walkmen around. they had NOT A CLUB about the entire idea of a digital audio player...now the same people are know-it-all ipod freaks who think other companies are newbies...it's great that apple's marketing brought digital audio players to the masses, but other companies did a huge amount of grunt work to get the technology there (including creative, which provided virtually gapless playback AGES AGO)

[Tool @ Dec 19th 2005 12:07AM]

How can you like the iPods interface better? Have you tried them both? They are virtually the same menus, and according to the patent case that Creative just won and Apple lost the Ipod interface is copied from Creative. Creative might be able to fund the company for a few years off of the patent infringment money they are going to collect from nearly everyone.

and FYI I have a Rio Karma, (gapless playback rocks)