Ask Engadget: Best digital SLR?
By Peter Rojas 
posted November 18th 2004 5:39PM
posted November 18th 2004 5:39PM
Alright, time for another Ask Engadget. Last week Dan wanted to know what stuff people kept on their USB keychain drives, this week reader Martha B. has a question about digital cameras:
I have a small digital camera which I love (the Pentax Optio S), but for taking nicer pictures I'm still using a regular SLR film camera. It's starting to show its age, so I've been thinking about taking the plunge and buying one of those new digital SLR cameras, and am at a loss about how to choose one. Are the cheaper ones like the Canon Digital Rebel good enough, or is it worth spending the money for a more professional camera? What else should I look for? If I buy a Nikon will I be able to use all the lenses from my old Nikon SLR?
Any advice?
While I lust for the new models I've an older Olympus E10 that is really a very good digital SLR. It's 4mp and has a host of controls from completely automatic to manual. I mention it because the technology evolves so quickly that you can pick one of these up for a modest sum. I saw one on ebay for $300 & they were $1500 new. The resolution is excellent and the images remind me of Kodachrome, contrasty with good saturation. Regardless of what you decide here is a list of features you should check out first in order of importance;
#1 shutter lag, the amount of time it takes from pressing the trigger to taking the photo. On a film camera it is almost instantaneous on a digital it is not and is extremely annoying when you are trying to capture the decisive moment.
#2 Secret Sauce - On a film camera you can switch films to get different effects. Kodachrome is different than extachrome than agfa etc. With a digital it is built in but I've read where they are starting to allow some tweaking here.
#3 Ease of adjustment - on my trusty old Nikon you adjust the f stop or shutter speed, pretty easy. On digitals I seen where you have to bring up the menu, cycle thru that for the apeture, push the little button several times, opps to far, round robin thru them all again. By that time your 3 year old is in the next county.
Good luck.
My wife just bought a D70 to replace her N65. It has been a great purchase for us, since she can use all of her Nikkor lenses with it. I would recommend it to anyone.
After reading all the reviews from different sites (one of them stated " you simply cannot go wrong ", I've adopted the D70 and this Thailand import (keeping my fingered crossed)is on the way to it's new home ...
I have a few points. The main point is that good glass is very important. Almost more important than which camera you buy. I don't know which lenses this person has but my guess is that they will be the limiting factor in the final quality of the photos...unless this person has professional quality lenses.
The second point is that currently Canon is ahead in the camera race. Pro's have been switching to Canon in droves because of this. Canon has switched over to CMOS design sensors that provide high resolution with very little noise when compared to the CCD's that Nikon uses. Another benefit of Canon's CMOS is longer battery life. My 1D MarkII easily takes 1500 photos on one charge. The previous 1D model which used CCD and had the same battery lasted perhaps half as long on a charge.
Some people claim that Nikon has better color. While that may or may not be true, if you shoot RAW it is pretty easy to calibrate the color to perfection. I have done so by taking a picture of a Gretag-Macbeth color chart and running a script in photoshop to adjust the calibration settings in the RAW convertor. Color is really a non-issue because it's so easy to adjust.
On the other hand, there is not much that can be done about the D70 or Nikon's other DSLR's higher levels of noise.
The other thing to be aware of is that DSLR's provide unfinished images. Almost as a rule, the more expensive the camera, the flatter the image coming out of the camera will look. You need to learn how to process them.
Anyway, good luck with whatever you choose!
http://www.pbase.com/eclecticphoto/full_size
Jorgen, Nikon's DX line of lenses are designed for their newest line of DSLRs (D70, D100, D2H, etc).
David
Actually, Canon's CMOS sensors, and Nikon's CCD sensors are so good nowadays, the old argument that one is significatnly better than the other is yesterday's news. Picking a camera has to be based on how you like the body, and what lenses you want to use. Both Nikon and Canon have compelling bodies and lenses to purchase. Choose carefully now, because you'll be stuck with your choice for a long time - unless you have lots of money to waste.
Come to think of it, this isn't the forum to make THAT argument. :-P
Seems the same as most of the discussions going on at other sights. Check out www.kenrockwell.com for all the good reasons why the D70 beats the Canon 300D for features and the D20 for important features and price. Nikon's flash is system is the best - period. I found the 300d's lack of flash compensation to be annoying beyond belief (yes - that can be fixed with a firmware hack to bring it up to almost 20D standards - but it voids the warranty), and the Nikon's controls are easier to access. The rest of it's rehash.
i too was in the same boat as you. my wife loves her optio s, but when i was time to really take pictures, we needed something better than an ordinary point and shoot. after researching various site, i ended with the konica minolta dimage a2. you should really check it out. true, it's not a dslr by virture you can't exchange the lens, but it offers lots of features so you can control how you want to take pictures. it is very daunting and confusing for someone new to the slr scene, but it offers lots of features such as 8mp, an anti vibration feature, a crisp clear evf, and can take pics in raw and tiff. it also has inputs for studio flash...just check it out. my only gripe is that the color lcd does not bend and move like the sony's but i guess i can overlook it. the dimage a200 solves that problem, but they skimp out on a lot of features. i'm pretty sure you'll agree that after researching it, you'll put it among the top of your choices.
There's another issue with using older lenses with a digital slr which I was surprised no one has mentioned yet. DSLR sensors are smaller than 35mm film (usually APS size, I believe), so the effective focal length of your lenses shifts by a factor of around 1.3. Your 50mm lens would shift to an effective 65, and so on. A possible plus is that you're only using the middle part of the lens, which generally has the best optics.
I'm a big time camera freak, so this is a pretty easy answer. If you want a Nikon, to use your old lenses (realizing that they probably cost more than the body), then you want a D70 (even over the D100). Keep in mind that your old lenses will have a 1.5 multiplication factor. If you can afford a couple thousand bucks, the D2H.
On the other hand, if you want to buy a new camera for $1500 and you don't care about the old lenses, you want the Canon 20D, now that they've fixed the major awful firmware bugs. It leapfrogs the D70 and D100 capabilities till Nikon leapfrogs Canon again ad infinitum.
If anyone pushes you at the Digital Rebel, demur and go for the D70 or 20D instead.
I strongly urge you to look at www.dpreports.com's review of any Digital SLR before buying one. They have great reviews.
"If I buy a Nikon will I be able to use all the lenses from my old Nikon SLR"
Sadly, this depends on a whole lot of things. Some very old lenses (like from the 60s, maybe early 70s) need to be converted.
In the lower end Nikon Digital SLRs most old lenses work, but the manual lenses work in manual metering mode only -- none of the cameras exposure modes will do anything for you, you need to either be good at using the "sunny 16" rule, have a light meter, or take multiple exposures and use the LCD to find the right exposure.
I find this inexcusable, and would like to berate Nikon for not making such lenses work in "stop down metering mode" (where you would select the aperture on the lens, and the camera would either choose the shutter speed, or tell you how far off your chosen shutter speed is).
Newer lenses work work just fine.
Note all lenses that work will act as if they have a small teleconverter on them - a 50mm lens will act more like a 80mm lens.
You didn't ask, but I'll answer the same question for Canon: "Can I use my old Canon SLR lenses on a Canon DSLR?"
Again the answer isn't as simple as one would like.
If it is a Canon EF lens (i.e. late 80s or newer) they all work, and they all work just fine.
If it is a Canon FE lens (or whatever the pre EF ones were called) then you need to buy a converter (which will act like a small teleconverter). These converters are rare and expensive, but they do show up from time to time on Ebay.
Any of the affordable Canon DSLRs have a teleconverter effect. Multiply your lens length by 1.6 to find how it will act. For example the 50mm "normal" lens becomes a 80mm lens, so it stops being good for small group photos at a comfortable distance, but it starts being good for a head and shoulders portrait shot at a comfortable distance.
In general if you have existing Canon or Nikon lenses that will work on the DSLR there isn't a huge reason to switch from one camera line to another. The only real exception is if you really only have one lens and you really really like something about the other camera more.
I don't know a huge amount about the Nikon D70 vs. the Nikon D100.
I do know about the Canon Digital Rebel and the Canon EOS-20D, and the EOS-10D (the camera recently replaced by the 20D).
The Digital Rebel is about $500 less then the 20D. The Digital Rebel has a lot of irritating omissions that are mostly "how can we justify charging people $500 more for the 20D?". For example the camera has an AI Servo mode, but you can only get at it in "Sports Shooting Mode", so if you want AI Servo, but want to choose your own aperture and shutter times, you are just out of luck. They also left off the rear control wheel (which actually saves them money, so it isn't as gratuitous as a lot of the other things).
The 20D is newer then the Rebel and has a noticeably better auto-focus system, and also does better at low light exposures.
Personally I would spend the extra money and get the 20D. That is also what I did. If I couldn't stretch and afford the 20D I would buy one of the older "prosumer" DSLRs from Canon, the 10D is very nice, as is the D60 (I know people with both). Even the four year old EOS-D30 is very nice, and I would rather have it then the Digital Rebel. In fact the D30 is nice enough that I have kept mine (in part as a backup camera, and in part because my wife wanted a DSLR).
I already have lenses worth more (in total) then the new camera though, so sticking with Canon was a no brainer.
There are cameras other then Canon and Nikon. Unfortunately Canon and Nikon make the best lenses (and I think Canon makes the best image stabilized lenses; Nikon makes better macro lenses), so there are significant reasons to steer clear of them...but...
The Sigma SD9 (or, maybe another number, they came out with a new one) is stunningly good at color resolution. Better sensor then Nikon and Canon, at least when there is enough light.
>
Yeah, tech is a moving target. Canon does seem very committed to grinding out noticeable improvements in their products with every new product cycle. You have to appreciate that. Comment #57 is worth note - some older lenses may not work with a new digital camera - and today's lenses may not work with some camera you may want to buy in the future. You can check on those older lenses' compatibility. but even Karnak can't predict whether the lens you buy today will work on the 100MB-capture, night-vision, WiFi-enabled, movie-burst mode camera you'll want to buy in 5 years. All you can know for sure is that if you DON'T buy that lens today and wait 5 years, you'll miss 5 years of whatever images that lens might have captured for you.
I have a Canon 20D. Nice bump up over my old 10D. We're really approaching the brink of where the best digitals outperform the very finest film cameras, if we're not there already. Merits of film notwithstanding, I'd never trade in the pragmatic benefits of the digital imaging process for film.
Anyone tells you the Nikon D70 is competitive with the Canon D20, when the D20 has 2 more megapixels in resolution, a Titanium body and lots of other features, and you'll be talking to a Nikon apologist.
I love Nikon. Don't get me wrong. I wish I still used film so I could justify the new F6 - what a cool camera! But facts are facts.
And yes, flash is better on the high-end Nikon bodies, but with the new Canon flash system, that difference is becoming less and less.
Besides, flash sucks. Why use it unless you really have to? In 15 years as a photojournalist, I probably used flash 5 percent of the time - half of that in the studio. And I've done just fine. But then I was a Leica nut. Fill flash has it's place. For me about 45 percent of my flash pictures were fill. :-)
I have a Canon D60 and I love it! No problems, fantastic results, good battery life, etc... I would definitely recommend a high capacity CF card, not a microdrive as I believe the lower access speed limits the camera. I personally like Canon, because, well, it's Canon. Great lenses, great cameras, great flashes, industry wide support. I haven't owned a Nikon or others, but I am sure they are just as good since they seem to have almost equal support.
Shane, microdrives can be very fast...it really depends on the camera. I use a 4GB microdrive in my 1D MarkII...no problem maintaining the 8.5 fps shooting speed and the buffer clears quite fast.
The short answer to your question about cheaper vs more expensive d-SLRs is (IMHO) "yes, the cheaper ones are plenty good enough." I'd say the current lineup in order of quality/features pretty much follows the price points of the respective Canon/Nikon models: Canon Digital Rebel at the entry level, Nikon D70 next, Canon EOS 20D above that. Unless you need the built-like-a-tank ruggedness of the high-end pro bodies, you can get 90+% of the functionality you need for a much more affordable price with one of the three models just mentioned.
If you've got a Nikon film SLR and Nikon lenses now, you'd almost certainly want to go with the D70, unless all your lenses are manual focus, in which case they'll effectively reduce the D70 to a full-manual camera without a metering system. The D70 is a wonderful camera though, easily the best-feeling SLR I've handled. It just fits your hand like it belongs there. (I own a D70 as my personal camera, which says a lot, given the business I'm in. - Testing cameras.)
In the Canon line, the Digital Rebel is very capable, amazingly so for the price. It has some annoying limitations relative to the 20D in terms of AF operation and metering, that are really there only to prod people into spending the extra money on the 20D. But if you have the extra money, the 20D is a vastly superior camera in almost every respect.
Here's the decision tree, I think:
- Ancient Nikon lenses, tight budget: Digital Rebel.
- Autofocus Nikon lenses, medium budget: Nikon D70
- Ancient Nikon lenses and/or higher budget: Canon EOS 20D.
All are fine cameras though, I doubt you'd be disappointed with any of the three. (And there's really no reason to go for the $4-5K pro models unless ruggedness is an overriding concern.)
Here are my links to help:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/EDR/EDRA.HTM
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D70/D70A.HTM
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E20D/E20DA.HTM
- Dave Etchells
The short answer to your question about cheaper vs more expensive d-SLRs is (IMHO) "yes, the cheaper ones are plenty good enough." I'd say the current lineup in order of quality/features pretty much follows the price points of the respective Canon/Nikon models: Canon Digital Rebel at the entry level, Nikon D70 next, Canon EOS 20D above that. Unless you need the built-like-a-tank ruggedness of the high-end pro bodies, you can get 90+% of the functionality you need for a much more affordable price with one of the three models just mentioned.
If you've got a Nikon film SLR and Nikon lenses now, you'd almost certainly want to go with the D70, unless all your lenses are manual focus, in which case they'll effectively reduce the D70 to a full-manual camera without a metering system. The D70 is a wonderful camera though, easily the best-feeling SLR I've handled. It just fits your hand like it belongs there. (I own a D70 as my personal camera, which says a lot, given the business I'm in. - Testing cameras.)
In the Canon line, the Digital Rebel is very capable, amazingly so for the price. It has some annoying limitations relative to the 20D in terms of AF operation and metering, that are really there only to prod people into spending the extra money on the 20D. But if you have the extra money, the 20D is a vastly superior camera in almost every respect.
Here's the decision tree, I think:
- Ancient Nikon lenses, tight budget: Digital Rebel.
- Autofocus Nikon lenses, medium budget: Nikon D70
- Ancient Nikon lenses and/or higher budget: Canon EOS 20D.
All are fine cameras though, I doubt you'd be disappointed with any of the three. (And there's really no reason to go for the $4-5K pro models unless ruggedness is an overriding concern.)
Here are my links to help:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/EDR/EDRA.HTM
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D70/D70A.HTM
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E20D/E20DA.HTM
- Dave Etchells
It's useless to repeat lots of what has been said. But if you have Nikon gear, go with Nikon. If you have Canon gear, go with canon. Then choose the camera by budget. You could shoot raw on all cameras and it's all great. If you have no gear, then I personally like Canon. It is a matter of what you like. Try both out. This is almost as useless of an agument as Mac vs. PC....
None of the above. Now is not a good time to buy a DSLR.
At the low end, they're still way too spendy, and your 50mm and wide angle lenses are pretty much useless in their intended roles. If you buy an Olympus, you're stuck with slow zooms of average quality. Once the DSLR's break the $500 mark, they'll be worth the investment.
In the mid-range systems, they don't have the features the next generation units will all have, and these features will be worth waiting for:
- Image stabilization in-body. (This will increase image quality more than you can imagine.)
- Anti-dust technology, like in the new Olympus.
- 802.11g connectivity.
I'd also expect sensor sensitivity and lattitude and noice reduction technology to be present in them as well.
The way I look at it, the lack of quality primes, or even fast, fixed-apeture APO zooms, engineered to take advantage of the smaller imaging area of the DSLR, means none of the manufacturers are really taking the DSLR market seriously yet. Wake me up when Olympus or Pentax trots out a new "pancake" lens for their DSLR, or when Canon retires the 80-200 f/4 EF for one designed with the D70 in mind.
I guess in another three years, the market will be ripe. Until then, it's a smorgasboard of the ill-concieved and underendowed. They're all equally bad.
I also predict that in another three years, Cosina will be marketing a line of DSLR's under the Voightlander marque that will come in every manual focus mount you can think of. Expect the Yaschica/Contax model to be extremely popular. They'll probably also release a DRF - digital rangefinder system, in Leica M-mount, complete with nice Voightlander glass designed for it.
BTW, folks, there's a $100 rebate from Nikon on the D70 or D70 Kit until Dec 31. The D1X has a $500 rebate.
All SLR body/lens/kit rebates, including digital:
http://www.nikonusa.com/fileuploads/pdfs/slr_rebates.pdf
To answer post #18 if it hasn't been responded to yet, go with the Nikon kit, or #1 in your options. The lens has gotten good reviews. Separately, it costs more to buy the lens and body. Then pick up a 70-300 or 80-200 (though these are for film, so the zoom will be greater), and you're set.
To Michael D. Rubin of Nikon,
It's nice to see Nikon's participation on Engadget. How are things in Melville these days?
Some specific questions:
1) When are we going to see the next D70 (D80?), or something that's the EOS 20D beater?
2) What will the D2X retail for?
3) Any chance you'll be packaging your digital SLRs with microdrives like Kodak?
4) Any chance you can swing a special rebate for Engadget readers? ;)
Happy Turkey Day
Just got the *ist ds after returning my Nikon D70 and I couldn't be happier. This camera at $1000 is simply the best price/feature combo you can buy right now. It is so baffling that it is barely mentioned. I even heard one person say that they would get it only if they had more lenses!!!!! Don't people know who Pentax is yet?
To Anon, to answer your questions:
1) When are we going to see the next D70 (D80?), or something that's the EOS 20D beater?
We never discuss future products (real or imagined) until they are announced publicly.
I will tell you that in terms of image quality, i.e. your final printed output, I'll gladly put the D70 up against almost any digital SLR under $2000. When you get to a larger sensor, and therefore pixel sizes, you will find that spatial resolution, i.e. pixel width x pixel height, becomes less of a factor in printing. The sharpness of the lens and the image processing are far more important than megapixels. (Did someone in the Photo industry actually say Megapixel count doesn't matter?)
In the case of compact cameras the lens and image processing is just as important, however pixel count, or spatial resolution, does mater more as it does become a factor in final output and cropping-more so than in a Digital SLR.
2) What will the D2X retail for?
Pricing will be announced very, very soon but I am not at liberty to disclose this information. I will say this, however, the value-for-money proposition will surprise many. Not to tease, but I think almost everyone will be happy with the pricing.
3) Any chance you'll be packaging your digital SLRs with microdrives like Kodak?
I am not in camera marketing, however I don't see us packaging any storage media with a Digital SLR as we never have. Even back in the days of the D1 (1999) and its predecessors, the venerable E2, E3 (circa 1995) (yes we've been making Digital SLR cameras for a long time), we've never offered media with Digital SLR cameras as it ultimately costs the consumer more at retail than if they bought the two items separately.
4) Any chance you can swing a special rebate for Engadget readers? ;)
Well I can't give any Engadget readers any special rebates, but we are giving everyone rebates. Please check out our site as there are numerous rebates on the D70 body and a whole host of lenses for purchasers who buy US Warrantied products here in the US.
See, I told you it'd take me some time to check this forum again!
HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE!!! MAY YOU FIND A CAMERA UNDER THE TREE OR NEXT TO YOUR MENORAH! GOOD SHOOTING!
I was wondering if anyone could help me. I'm contemplating getting either the Nikon D70 kit with the 18-70mm lens or the one that comes with 2 Sigma lenses. Does anyone know which one would be better? Thanks!
I've been doinh research on the D70 vs. Rebel and in two different places I saw that you should buy the Nikon Outfit over the Sigma Kit because the glass was better, but that was a subjective opinion and I can't find either of the references now. Both comments indicated that the Sigma was really nice, just the Nikon was nicer for the same price. You might get a bigger rebate on the Outfit so you should look into that too.
I've got a canon and a konica digital camera which I've been using for the last year and they are great given their size. Last month I went for the Nikon D70 as I had a Nikon 601 SLR with lenses. It is awesome - I can't rate it highly enough. Couple of niggles on the menu structure - switching to CF from AF for instance but otherwise a great unit. You'll love it.
Hi all, I am considering of buying a DSLR (to replace my F80D) and after reading all your posts, I think I'm sold on Nikon D70!!!
Having said that, there's been rumours (via various forum) that Nikon is bringing out new DSLR with possible 8MPS soon... anyone heard of the similar news and know when it will happen?
Cheers,
Don
I’m considering of buying a DSLR. After reading all your comments the 20d is, apparently, the best deal. Now that i'm shopping for it I found a "usm" kind of lens. What does usm mean?, should I buy a 18-55 usm lens. Is there any good reason I should spend $60 more?
I am considering a D70. What is the difference with the import model that is cheaper? Also is it important to get the latest firmware version or can this be upgraded? Most ads do not disclose the firmware version? Thanks for any info on these.
After using numerous models of, both, Canon & Nikon, the decision is now easy. The Canon EOS 1Ds M2.. Absolutely no comarpison. The only other body I will carry anymore is the 1D M2 (for speed). For those not wanting to spend so much, I still recommend the 20D (with the battery grip) as the best amateur body.
After using numerous models of, both, Canon & Nikon, the decision is now easy. The Canon EOS 1Ds M2.. Absolutely no comarpison. The only other body I will carry anymore is the 1D M2 (for speed). For those not wanting to spend so much, I still recommend the 20D (with the battery grip) as the best amateur body.