Creative's CEO disses the iPod shuffle: Them's fightin' words!
posted January 12th 2005 1:35PM
Ever since Creative declared war on Apple late last
year we've been expecting a little more of a street brawl between the two. Obviously being number one has made it easy
for Steve Jobs to ignore everyone else, but fortunately Creative CEO Sim Wong Hoo (or as Stevie J. probably calls him,
"Sim Wong Who?") wasn't above dishing out some salty fightin' words for us in honor of the launch of the
iPod shuffle yesterday, calling it a "a big let-down" and
"worse than the cheapest Chinese player." This stuff is too good not to blockquote:
We're expecting a good fight but they're coming out with something that's five generations older. It's our first generation MuVo One product feature, without display, just have a (shuffle feature). We had that — that's a four-year-old product. So I think the whole industry will just laugh at it, because the flash people — it's worse than the cheapest Chinese player. Even the cheap, cheap Chinese brand today has display and has FM. They don't have this kind of thing, and they expect to come out with a fight; I think it's a non-starter to begin with.
We know it's going to be hard for companies that have been selling flash-based MP3 players for years to see Apple
swoop in and scoop up a large chunk of the market (loads of amnestic journalists probably won't help, either), but no
matter whether you love 'em or loathe 'em, Apple simply has the design chops, marketing skills, and brand awareness to
drive sales of a flash-based player that these other companies do not. If those other companies did, then by definition
there wouldn't be a market opportunity for Apple here, would there?
[Thanks, Jimmy]
LOL! Well, obviously Creative's four year old product was crap because I don't see Creative as the market leader.
Instead of coming out with negative comments that make him look like an ass, innovate your own product line to surpass the iPod.
Bitching like a child who didn't get the present they wanted only makes you look like a whiner.
I'm no apple lover, but people are missing the point. The 1gig shuffle is $150. The cheapest 1gig player I can find on the web is less than $10 cheaper, twice the size, and ugly as hell.
Apple has put out a simple flash player at a VERY competitive price, and they have the marketing to spin the lack of an LCD.
(Frankly I rarely use the LCD on my mp3 players anyway, and they're always set to shuffle. guess I'm the target demographic.)
You guys are nothing but shills for Apple. This piece of crap will sell because all you Apple apologists will give them a free ride, gushing about the damn design, the cool ads, etc.
I agree with Mr. Hoo! Apple is just riding on iPod's wave.
Creative still doesn't get it. It's not about the player because if it was then Creative and others would rule with display and FM capabilities. This is a product for people that want to use iTunes (everybody) and that don't want to spend a lot of money on the player or are looking for a very small footprint or are wanting to nibble at digital music to see if it's something that they dig. I think I'll get one for my wife to go walking with and load it up with a couple of pre-designed playlists like the one from Jennifer Garner and the one from Mick Fleetwood. I think she'll like working out to the same workout tracks as Jennifer Garner don't you?
the only reason apple can get away with it is becuz of the reputation.
what if some no-name company would have come out with a 1gb flash player that could only shuffle, what we all be saying then? think about that.
His nickname is "Boo" Hoo.
uhh...in case u didn't notice, ipod shuffle doesn;t only shuffle
Wong Hoo needs to give it a rest. Competition is good, but prove your worth in the marketplace with good products, not whiny vitriol that makes you sound like a 10-year old.
Hey you're absolutely right, they are riding on the success of the iPod. People laughed when the 5GB iPod came out and we all see who's laughing now. Look at the price point! Let's say you get a decent 1GB flash drive for $99 retail, pay an extra $50 (or $40 if you've got a student ID) and voila, you're part of the fashion elite. Join the technocracy for $99.
To give credit to Creative, they have had a lot of great products come out recently, but like wendo says, actions speak louder than words. If anyone can take the "cheapest Chinese player" and make it into the hottest gadget this season, it's going to be Apple.
BTW, I have a 10GB iPod (2G) but I'm getting this one for jogging and short trips.
I'll add to the others about Creative. While I think they have some great products, they obviously need a lesson in how to market them better than Apple.
This is no love fest for Apple. It's pure and simple. Jobs and Co. know how to market a product, even if some people think it's crap or trash.
In the end, Apple's products work very well and people snap them up because there were truely creative people that know what appeals to people's needs, wants and desires.
None of us out here are not shills for Apple. Other products are just as good for some people and the best part about that is they can buy them over Apple.
If a company like Creative wants to sell 10 million Zen audio players, they best be spending less time slamming Apple and more time finding a way to get them into consumers hands.
Brandon- if another company came out with a flash player at that price point that played songs purchased from the online music store that has 70% of the market that could play in order or shuffle (like the new iPod), it would be almost as significant (it does help that it's Apple and the diehards will be all over this and that it's nicely designed...).
The key word is iTunes. Have any of you ever used the Creative software for their players? It's unbelieveably bad. Sure there are alternatives from other devolpers but they're not much better. The combo of an Apple player with iTunes is why Apple is and will for the forseeable future be the leader.
Creative mp3 players will mount in Mac iTunes for song transfer... the downside is that you can only load songs in the top level directory, forgoing the ability to keep separate folders or playlists. Other than playing AAC files, the shuffle has NOTHING on the MuVo TX, which retails for $120, works with Mac iTunes, comes with a display, voice recorder, USB plug, random mode, repeat mode, and an arm band (worth $30 according to Apple).
That said, the shuffle will sell well, which is just a sad triumph of marketing over innovation. Do you think we'll see an iPod repeat next?
What Creative and other companies don't seem to get (despite being witness to Apple's continued success in this department) is that less really is more.
It's a very typical mindset of Asian electronics manufacturers to sell on feature lists alone without regard for usability or how a product fits in with a person's life. This has worked quite well in the past, and probably still does in many markets, but I think we're seeing a clear shift in the U.S. and I wouldn't be surprised if it catches on elsewhere. An FM tuner and a display are not "bonus features" they're extra crap that you have to carry around that only drives the price of the unit up.
I'll admit that it's a more difficult design challenge to come up with the *right* product rather than simply applying a time-honored formula of "more features + smaller," but I think it's what Creative and others will need to do in order to compete.
OMG, THE IPOD SHUFFLE DOES MORE THAN SHUFFLE??? I can't believe some people actually think all it does is shuffle.
"what if some no-name company would have come out with a 1gb flash player that could only shuffle, what we all be saying then? think about that."
Well, we'd ignore it. On the other hand if they released it with a solid software package that allowed for incredible ease of use and that integrated well with the overall operating system of the target user? We might not ignore it completely.
I mean wasn't it like the late '70s when Bill Gates ushered into the common consciousness the radical notion that it isn't the hardware that matters - you can have kickass hardware and really, whatever. Its the software.
Or maybe if they hired competent copywriters and graphic deisgners familiar with the market they are trying to make war to gain a foothold in. That would be something different too.
But hey, I'm an Apple apologist.
Bob and Brian, above, miss a few other key points to the shuffle's success:
1) It syncs with iTunes.
B) You will see this product on the aisle at Target.
4) Design is the product.
This is not about Apple playing to the Mac faithful. This is about Apple creating a lo-end, highly visible, numbingly easy-to-use product.
Apple does not care about ubergeeks. Apple does not care if you can buy a similar player with an LCD screen for $15 less.
Soccer moms will never buy a player from Creative. Ever. They view Apple as one views Gap, Crate and Barrel, or Nordstrom. This demographic is just now mentally arriving at the place where they understand that music can be played on a computer. iPod shuffle is not scary, and that is what they want. The Apple brand is clearly trusted, and that is also what they want.
Until Mr. Hoo understands that it's not all about features, and its everything about accessibility, Creative Labs will be sunk. There are far more soccer moms with disposable income than there are nerdlangers looking to spare a few bucks on their flash player.
Haha, funny CEO this is...
Of course a small flash based mp3 player isn't someting new, but there is a high demand as not everyone wants to carry all his music (like i do) and are more looking forward to sport a tiny device, for the train, workout or whatever. Guess they've just realized that with the apple pricing the market share of the other companys will go down (noticeable. But please, the only thing which prevented me personally from gettting a "smaller" Mp3 player was the out of question design of current available ones, every and i mean really every one of these is looking so damn ugly and they are all about the same price (as the Shuffle IPod), or even higher. http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/3468361/ref=br_bx_1_c_1_3/302-8344749-4181618
Direct from the planet of the apes...
Cheers to apple for developing (again) a well designed device..!
I am just wondering if people will really praise shuffling now. : ) Lame excuse for saving the money of an display, but c'mon, for just 1GB i don't really need it.
Dang people... who's going to buy something called the MuVo TX anyhow? Here's betting that didn't show up on many Christmas lists.
Overheard on the playground:
"My dad bought me a MuVo TX."
"My iPod shuffle is much cooler"
"Yeah, I know. Mine is crummy. I have a crummy dad."
Creative just don't get it, its not about that additional FM feature or a screen that's so tiny, its about the appearence and the ease of use of the product. Apple surely has an edge when it comes to aesthetics and how to make their product simple to use. I just wouldn't allow myself to use those puny flash players that is, utterly ugly.
If Creative has such a superior product then why is their market share so low?
Josh is right; it's all about the fact that it just *works*. Geeks can save their precious pennies, while your average Middle Class Joe & Joanna are going to say, "It's an iPod and it's affordable. Cool."
I work at a Super Target, and while I can't predict the future, I know my guests well enough to know they're going to eat these things up alive as soon as they hit the shelves. They don't buy iPods because they're the cheapest thing out there (they aren't); they don't buy iPods because they have the most features (they don't). They buy them because a) they *work*, and b) they... work.
Actually 18, I heard this at school @ the lockers today...
"My mom got me an iPod shuffle yesterday."
"What's it got on my Muvo TX? Can you get radio on yours?"
"Umm... my mom thinks I'm cool with an iPod."
I quote:
"Other than playing AAC files, the shuffle has NOTHING on the MuVo TX, which retails for $120, works with Mac iTunes, comes with a display, voice recorder, USB plug, random mode, repeat mode, and an arm band (worth $30 according to Apple)."
While nice features in all on their own, added together into a small package, it's crap. It's like the guy who adds cheese, bacon, lettuce, tomato, pickle, onion, sauce, onion rings, bbq sauce, and all that crap to a burger, sure, it's more than just cheese and the basics, but in the end you have an unsatisfying experence, not only in taste, but also in usability (all the stuff falls out.)
You're all still ignoring the price aspect.
Someone said the Muvo TX was $30 less than the ipod shuffle?
yeah, the muvo 512mb is $30 less than the 1GB iPod shuffle... and $20 more than the equivalent 512mb iPod shuffle.
I am NOT a mac-head, I think they make nice products but they price themselves out of the mainstream market.
Here they BEAT the market on pricing.
read it again. APPLE BEAT THE MARKET ON PRICING SOMETHING!
If Jobs and company finally got it through their heads that they were overpriced for many market segments, they have a booming future coming up. They already got the 'people with too much money' demographic by the balls, and it would appear that they're starting to move down the consumer price chain.
"If Creative has such a superior product then why is their market share so low?"
That's like saying if Apple has such a superior product, than home come they're computer market share is so low?
By your reckoning, GM makes the best cars, Windows is the best OS and Starbucks makes the damn best cup of coffee in the world.
Vewy, vewy bad assumption.
Ever notice that Creative products -- or any other mp3 players -- alone never get this many comments on eg?
am i right here? muvo tx requires an AAA battery that can't be charged (if its rechargable) by the usb port? for about the same price as the iPod shuffle, the muvo has half the storage? ($130 vs. $150). you'll spend that extra $20 in batteries in about 2 months. plus if you lose the battery adapter, you've lost your ability to play mp3s? the muvo's got a long way to go before it can match shuffle (imho).
It's simple. It works. I've said it time and time before - that is the magic combination to beat, not features or even price (although this one is cheaper than the competition - imagine that!). Plug it in, it syncs, it works, and uses iTunes, which is a damn fine application.
[This is why the iPod Photo has been such a dud, by the way - getting photos on it is not intuitive (use... iTunes? Wha?), it has limited usefulness (I can display tiny little photos, or carry around an adapter for the TV), and finally, it is DAMN expensive. If there does turn out to be a market for photo-MP3 players, I expect competitors to eat its lunch. Notice how Apple hasn't said *anything* about its popularity or sales figures?]
Ever notice that Creative products -- or any other mp3 players -- alone never get this many comments on eg?
-----------------------------------------
Did you read #24's comment?
LOL.
iPod Shuffle is rechargable, the market doesn't care about a $150 FM radio that plays a few CD's worth of tunes (if you're using an MP3 player you're not going to listen to your local POP station, you're going to fire up the songs you bought because those are the ones you want to hear), Apple is beating down the image that their stuff is too expensive, and most people who use the iPod don't really look at the screen anymore.
I've buying two, one for me and the other for my wife because I like the idea of replacing my dead 512MB USB drive I paid $89 for a while back with something that will hold my files and play tunes while I'm at work, without the extra firewire cable.
"That's like saying if Apple has such a superior product, than home come they're computer market share is so low?"
Actually, I was just asking a question, but feel free to make me into a straw-man for whatever arguments you'd like to make.
There are a lot of reasons why Microsoft has the market share it does. 1) They courted developers very early on. 2) They got a non-exclusive liscence with IBM back in the day. 3) They extend and maintain their monopoly through illegal abuse of their monopoly position.
So, why is it that Creative has such a mediocre market share?
What these companies could learn from Apple is that it i snot a feature war anymore. Meaning that the most features doe snot equal the best device. People want simple clean easy to use solutions. There are a specific set of features people want and any others just get in the way. The know that they need to make it a high capactiy flash player and integrate seamlessly with Itunes and have a simple clean button interface. BTW the UI in the creative MuVos does really suck. Most companies don't think enough about this and are still battling the feature war. Apple is in another game entirely and they just dotn get it. BTW, i am not a mac user, but am a afficonado of products that make my life simpler.
This guys got to realize it's an Apple product which means it will work unlike the crap creative puts out. I got one of their flash players for my brother's b-day and it stopped working after 2 days. It ould play one song and then freeze, It was a total POS! I ordered my iPod shuffle as soo as i could get into the apple store online. Something tells me that it's actually going to work.
Say what you want, this is just a white memory stick that works with itunes.
Price, suprisingly, is not bad.
However, at the end of the day, it will sell because it's associated with ipod/apple. If anyone else released this and even if that device worked with itunes, there would be no exposure and no sales in this"I like to copy everyone else" world.
"Actually 18, I heard this at school @ the lockers today...
"My mom got me an iPod shuffle yesterday."
"What's it got on my Muvo TX? Can you get radio on yours?"
"Umm... my mom thinks I'm cool with an iPod."
"Dude, FM radio sucks! Its so 20th-century"
That said, both MuVo and shuffle are stupid names.
It's pathetic that on a tech-geek-intarweb blog like this the best defense people can mount for the Suffle is that it has superior marketing and that soccer moms will buy it. Then they slag off other players with provably superior features and technology(like the muVo TX, iRiver flash or iAudio U2). Many of the competitor's players also sync with iTunes or show up as a movable HD so the usability argument is hogwash. Also, the current version of Rio Music Manager is fantastic (I've been using it for over a year now). .
Personally I think the new iPod is quite appealing but I do NOT see iTunes as a reason to buy an apple mp3/aac player. Most people have collected the bigger part of their digital music collection back in the days of napster (=> might not use the iTMS that frequently) and being forced to use an extra program to actually copy stuff on your mp3-player instead of using the explorer seems to be making it more complex. Nevertheless Im happy with my iPod mini, apart from the fact that it does NOT have an inbuild usb port (that proprietary apple thingy s***s bigtime)
Hey Sweetie Pie:
When does Microsoft have market share on Unix workstations? Last I heard, Apple had Sun beat on those.
People still listen to the radio?
i can't believe this is a feature that people are dying for (nor is voice recording capability). in terms of music, kids will have downloaded the 'hits' they want to listen to-- they're not going to get an MP3 player to listen to the radio until their favorite Lil' John song come on the air. radio is useful for stuff like NPR and news-- fair enough.
people are missing the point-- the average consumer does not want an MP3 player for anything other than playing their MP3s. they're not looking for a PDA.
and did people get this pissed off at sony when their walkman became the defacto name for any portable radio/tape player, a la Kleenex or Band-Aid?
I agree with madtracer, FM radio is considered ancient technology, and voice recording... well, show me one device that broke any sales records because you could record your own voice. Who cares?
One thing that us techies constantly forget is that the average joe doesn't really care about splitting hairs over technical specs. They want simple devices that are designed with the user experience in mind. That's what Apple is very good at making.
Hiro11 says above: "It's pathetic that on a tech-geek-intarweb blog like this the best defense people can mount for the Suffle is that it has superior marketing and that soccer moms will buy it. Then they slag off other players with provably superior features and technology(like the muVo TX, iRiver flash or iAudio U2)."
Dude, you still don't get it. Apple doesn't give a flipping rip about tech geeks that are reading Engadget (no offense, eg) -- this is mainstream. The vast majority of people out there don't care about "superior features." They want it to play their digital music, and they want it to be simple. People are scared of technology.
Apple makes technology that is not scary.
Mr. Hoo is scary.
Anyone noticed that the iPod Shuffle is the first and only digital music player ever released to NOT have a "Repeat Song" feature? Prety suspicious, huh? I bet the clever engineers at Apple are already hard at work with their *next* player... the iPod Repeat! Simple intuitive interface! Listen to your favorite song over and over again-- WITH NO USER INTERVENTION REQUIRED!
Well, I HAD a Nomad Zen. For $219 I got 30 gigs. Not anymore, however. Now I have a 20 Gig Ipod.
Here was the difference for me -
1. The scroll wheel - heaven, simply heaven.
2. Creative music software interface, was simply clunky.
3. Smaller.
Also, it died on me after 9 months.
I think the new Zen's take care of #3, but not the "ease of use" and cool factor of the scroll wheel.
My two cents.
Actually Brian you may want to try using a little thing called the internet:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1194592,00030010.htm
Hiro11 sounds like he's just trying to justify his previous purchase of some inferior flash player with excess features like FM tuner and voice recorder.
It was never about the raw "features" - there were plenty of armchair-CEOs who thought the original would flop, because Archos and Creative's Nomad had more capacity or a lower price, or features like recording.
Hiro11, say it out loud 50 times that the Muvo is superior, it'll make yourself feel better...
Actually MadMan, I think everyone noticed how YOU failed to notice the Shuffle does have a repeat song feature. The power switch is either Off, Repeat, or Shuffle.
If apple sold a sexy looking box of poop you drones would still buy it. "Look at the awesome rounded edges and easy to use UI, it' soo hip."
Remember: a box of poop is a box of poop.
well said #37