Creative's CEO disses the iPod shuffle: Them's fightin' words!
posted Jan 12th 2005 1:35PM
Ever since Creative declared war on Apple late last
year we've been expecting a little more of a street brawl between the two. Obviously being number one has made it easy
for Steve Jobs to ignore everyone else, but fortunately Creative CEO Sim Wong Hoo (or as Stevie J. probably calls him,
"Sim Wong Who?") wasn't above dishing out some salty fightin' words for us in honor of the launch of the
iPod shuffle yesterday, calling it a "a big let-down" and
"worse than the cheapest Chinese player." This stuff is too good not to blockquote:
We're expecting a good fight but they're coming out with something that's five generations older. It's our first generation MuVo One product feature, without display, just have a (shuffle feature). We had that — that's a four-year-old product. So I think the whole industry will just laugh at it, because the flash people — it's worse than the cheapest Chinese player. Even the cheap, cheap Chinese brand today has display and has FM. They don't have this kind of thing, and they expect to come out with a fight; I think it's a non-starter to begin with.
We know it's going to be hard for companies that have been selling flash-based MP3 players for years to see Apple
swoop in and scoop up a large chunk of the market (loads of amnestic journalists probably won't help, either), but no
matter whether you love 'em or loathe 'em, Apple simply has the design chops, marketing skills, and brand awareness to
drive sales of a flash-based player that these other companies do not. If those other companies did, then by definition
there wouldn't be a market opportunity for Apple here, would there?
[Thanks, Jimmy]
LOL! Well, obviously Creative's four year old product was crap because I don't see Creative as the market leader.
Instead of coming out with negative comments that make him look like an ass, innovate your own product line to surpass the iPod.
Bitching like a child who didn't get the present they wanted only makes you look like a whiner.
I'm no apple lover, but people are missing the point. The 1gig shuffle is $150. The cheapest 1gig player I can find on the web is less than $10 cheaper, twice the size, and ugly as hell.
Apple has put out a simple flash player at a VERY competitive price, and they have the marketing to spin the lack of an LCD.
(Frankly I rarely use the LCD on my mp3 players anyway, and they're always set to shuffle. guess I'm the target demographic.)
You guys are nothing but shills for Apple. This piece of crap will sell because all you Apple apologists will give them a free ride, gushing about the damn design, the cool ads, etc.
I agree with Mr. Hoo! Apple is just riding on iPod's wave.
Creative still doesn't get it. It's not about the player because if it was then Creative and others would rule with display and FM capabilities. This is a product for people that want to use iTunes (everybody) and that don't want to spend a lot of money on the player or are looking for a very small footprint or are wanting to nibble at digital music to see if it's something that they dig. I think I'll get one for my wife to go walking with and load it up with a couple of pre-designed playlists like the one from Jennifer Garner and the one from Mick Fleetwood. I think she'll like working out to the same workout tracks as Jennifer Garner don't you?
the only reason apple can get away with it is becuz of the reputation.
what if some no-name company would have come out with a 1gb flash player that could only shuffle, what we all be saying then? think about that.
His nickname is "Boo" Hoo.
uhh...in case u didn't notice, ipod shuffle doesn;t only shuffle
Wong Hoo needs to give it a rest. Competition is good, but prove your worth in the marketplace with good products, not whiny vitriol that makes you sound like a 10-year old.
Hey you're absolutely right, they are riding on the success of the iPod. People laughed when the 5GB iPod came out and we all see who's laughing now. Look at the price point! Let's say you get a decent 1GB flash drive for $99 retail, pay an extra $50 (or $40 if you've got a student ID) and voila, you're part of the fashion elite. Join the technocracy for $99.
To give credit to Creative, they have had a lot of great products come out recently, but like wendo says, actions speak louder than words. If anyone can take the "cheapest Chinese player" and make it into the hottest gadget this season, it's going to be Apple.
BTW, I have a 10GB iPod (2G) but I'm getting this one for jogging and short trips.
I'll add to the others about Creative. While I think they have some great products, they obviously need a lesson in how to market them better than Apple.
This is no love fest for Apple. It's pure and simple. Jobs and Co. know how to market a product, even if some people think it's crap or trash.
In the end, Apple's products work very well and people snap them up because there were truely creative people that know what appeals to people's needs, wants and desires.
None of us out here are not shills for Apple. Other products are just as good for some people and the best part about that is they can buy them over Apple.
If a company like Creative wants to sell 10 million Zen audio players, they best be spending less time slamming Apple and more time finding a way to get them into consumers hands.
Brandon- if another company came out with a flash player at that price point that played songs purchased from the online music store that has 70% of the market that could play in order or shuffle (like the new iPod), it would be almost as significant (it does help that it's Apple and the diehards will be all over this and that it's nicely designed...).
The key word is iTunes. Have any of you ever used the Creative software for their players? It's unbelieveably bad. Sure there are alternatives from other devolpers but they're not much better. The combo of an Apple player with iTunes is why Apple is and will for the forseeable future be the leader.
Creative mp3 players will mount in Mac iTunes for song transfer... the downside is that you can only load songs in the top level directory, forgoing the ability to keep separate folders or playlists. Other than playing AAC files, the shuffle has NOTHING on the MuVo TX, which retails for $120, works with Mac iTunes, comes with a display, voice recorder, USB plug, random mode, repeat mode, and an arm band (worth $30 according to Apple).
That said, the shuffle will sell well, which is just a sad triumph of marketing over innovation. Do you think we'll see an iPod repeat next?
What Creative and other companies don't seem to get (despite being witness to Apple's continued success in this department) is that less really is more.
It's a very typical mindset of Asian electronics manufacturers to sell on feature lists alone without regard for usability or how a product fits in with a person's life. This has worked quite well in the past, and probably still does in many markets, but I think we're seeing a clear shift in the U.S. and I wouldn't be surprised if it catches on elsewhere. An FM tuner and a display are not "bonus features" they're extra crap that you have to carry around that only drives the price of the unit up.
I'll admit that it's a more difficult design challenge to come up with the *right* product rather than simply applying a time-honored formula of "more features + smaller," but I think it's what Creative and others will need to do in order to compete.
OMG, THE IPOD SHUFFLE DOES MORE THAN SHUFFLE??? I can't believe some people actually think all it does is shuffle.
"what if some no-name company would have come out with a 1gb flash player that could only shuffle, what we all be saying then? think about that."
Well, we'd ignore it. On the other hand if they released it with a solid software package that allowed for incredible ease of use and that integrated well with the overall operating system of the target user? We might not ignore it completely.
I mean wasn't it like the late '70s when Bill Gates ushered into the common consciousness the radical notion that it isn't the hardware that matters - you can have kickass hardware and really, whatever. Its the software.
Or maybe if they hired competent copywriters and graphic deisgners familiar with the market they are trying to make war to gain a foothold in. That would be something different too.
But hey, I'm an Apple apologist.
Bob and Brian, above, miss a few other key points to the shuffle's success:
1) It syncs with iTunes.
B) You will see this product on the aisle at Target.
4) Design is the product.
This is not about Apple playing to the Mac faithful. This is about Apple creating a lo-end, highly visible, numbingly easy-to-use product.
Apple does not care about ubergeeks. Apple does not care if you can buy a similar player with an LCD screen for $15 less.
Soccer moms will never buy a player from Creative. Ever. They view Apple as one views Gap, Crate and Barrel, or Nordstrom. This demographic is just now mentally arriving at the place where they understand that music can be played on a computer. iPod shuffle is not scary, and that is what they want. The Apple brand is clearly trusted, and that is also what they want.
Until Mr. Hoo understands that it's not all about features, and its everything about accessibility, Creative Labs will be sunk. There are far more soccer moms with disposable income than there are nerdlangers looking to spare a few bucks on their flash player.
Haha, funny CEO this is...
Of course a small flash based mp3 player isn't someting new, but there is a high demand as not everyone wants to carry all his music (like i do) and are more looking forward to sport a tiny device, for the train, workout or whatever. Guess they've just realized that with the apple pricing the market share of the other companys will go down (noticeable. But please, the only thing which prevented me personally from gettting a "smaller" Mp3 player was the out of question design of current available ones, every and i mean really every one of these is looking so damn ugly and they are all about the same price (as the Shuffle IPod), or even higher. http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/3468361/ref=br_bx_1_c_1_3/302-8344749-4181618
Direct from the planet of the apes...
Cheers to apple for developing (again) a well designed device..!
I am just wondering if people will really praise shuffling now. : ) Lame excuse for saving the money of an display, but c'mon, for just 1GB i don't really need it.
Dang people... who's going to buy something called the MuVo TX anyhow? Here's betting that didn't show up on many Christmas lists.
Overheard on the playground:
"My dad bought me a MuVo TX."
"My iPod shuffle is much cooler"
"Yeah, I know. Mine is crummy. I have a crummy dad."
Creative just don't get it, its not about that additional FM feature or a screen that's so tiny, its about the appearence and the ease of use of the product. Apple surely has an edge when it comes to aesthetics and how to make their product simple to use. I just wouldn't allow myself to use those puny flash players that is, utterly ugly.
If Creative has such a superior product then why is their market share so low?
Josh is right; it's all about the fact that it just *works*. Geeks can save their precious pennies, while your average Middle Class Joe & Joanna are going to say, "It's an iPod and it's affordable. Cool."
I work at a Super Target, and while I can't predict the future, I know my guests well enough to know they're going to eat these things up alive as soon as they hit the shelves. They don't buy iPods because they're the cheapest thing out there (they aren't); they don't buy iPods because they have the most features (they don't). They buy them because a) they *work*, and b) they... work.
Actually 18, I heard this at school @ the lockers today...
"My mom got me an iPod shuffle yesterday."
"What's it got on my Muvo TX? Can you get radio on yours?"
"Umm... my mom thinks I'm cool with an iPod."
I quote:
"Other than playing AAC files, the shuffle has NOTHING on the MuVo TX, which retails for $120, works with Mac iTunes, comes with a display, voice recorder, USB plug, random mode, repeat mode, and an arm band (worth $30 according to Apple)."
While nice features in all on their own, added together into a small package, it's crap. It's like the guy who adds cheese, bacon, lettuce, tomato, pickle, onion, sauce, onion rings, bbq sauce, and all that crap to a burger, sure, it's more than just cheese and the basics, but in the end you have an unsatisfying experence, not only in taste, but also in usability (all the stuff falls out.)
You're all still ignoring the price aspect.
Someone said the Muvo TX was $30 less than the ipod shuffle?
yeah, the muvo 512mb is $30 less than the 1GB iPod shuffle... and $20 more than the equivalent 512mb iPod shuffle.
I am NOT a mac-head, I think they make nice products but they price themselves out of the mainstream market.
Here they BEAT the market on pricing.
read it again. APPLE BEAT THE MARKET ON PRICING SOMETHING!
If Jobs and company finally got it through their heads that they were overpriced for many market segments, they have a booming future coming up. They already got the 'people with too much money' demographic by the balls, and it would appear that they're starting to move down the consumer price chain.
"If Creative has such a superior product then why is their market share so low?"
That's like saying if Apple has such a superior product, than home come they're computer market share is so low?
By your reckoning, GM makes the best cars, Windows is the best OS and Starbucks makes the damn best cup of coffee in the world.
Vewy, vewy bad assumption.
Ever notice that Creative products -- or any other mp3 players -- alone never get this many comments on eg?
am i right here? muvo tx requires an AAA battery that can't be charged (if its rechargable) by the usb port? for about the same price as the iPod shuffle, the muvo has half the storage? ($130 vs. $150). you'll spend that extra $20 in batteries in about 2 months. plus if you lose the battery adapter, you've lost your ability to play mp3s? the muvo's got a long way to go before it can match shuffle (imho).
It's simple. It works. I've said it time and time before - that is the magic combination to beat, not features or even price (although this one is cheaper than the competition - imagine that!). Plug it in, it syncs, it works, and uses iTunes, which is a damn fine application.
[This is why the iPod Photo has been such a dud, by the way - getting photos on it is not intuitive (use... iTunes? Wha?), it has limited usefulness (I can display tiny little photos, or carry around an adapter for the TV), and finally, it is DAMN expensive. If there does turn out to be a market for photo-MP3 players, I expect competitors to eat its lunch. Notice how Apple hasn't said *anything* about its popularity or sales figures?]
Ever notice that Creative products -- or any other mp3 players -- alone never get this many comments on eg?
-----------------------------------------
Did you read #24's comment?
LOL.
iPod Shuffle is rechargable, the market doesn't care about a $150 FM radio that plays a few CD's worth of tunes (if you're using an MP3 player you're not going to listen to your local POP station, you're going to fire up the songs you bought because those are the ones you want to hear), Apple is beating down the image that their stuff is too expensive, and most people who use the iPod don't really look at the screen anymore.
I've buying two, one for me and the other for my wife because I like the idea of replacing my dead 512MB USB drive I paid $89 for a while back with something that will hold my files and play tunes while I'm at work, without the extra firewire cable.
"That's like saying if Apple has such a superior product, than home come they're computer market share is so low?"
Actually, I was just asking a question, but feel free to make me into a straw-man for whatever arguments you'd like to make.
There are a lot of reasons why Microsoft has the market share it does. 1) They courted developers very early on. 2) They got a non-exclusive liscence with IBM back in the day. 3) They extend and maintain their monopoly through illegal abuse of their monopoly position.
So, why is it that Creative has such a mediocre market share?
What these companies could learn from Apple is that it i snot a feature war anymore. Meaning that the most features doe snot equal the best device. People want simple clean easy to use solutions. There are a specific set of features people want and any others just get in the way. The know that they need to make it a high capactiy flash player and integrate seamlessly with Itunes and have a simple clean button interface. BTW the UI in the creative MuVos does really suck. Most companies don't think enough about this and are still battling the feature war. Apple is in another game entirely and they just dotn get it. BTW, i am not a mac user, but am a afficonado of products that make my life simpler.
This guys got to realize it's an Apple product which means it will work unlike the crap creative puts out. I got one of their flash players for my brother's b-day and it stopped working after 2 days. It ould play one song and then freeze, It was a total POS! I ordered my iPod shuffle as soo as i could get into the apple store online. Something tells me that it's actually going to work.
Say what you want, this is just a white memory stick that works with itunes.
Price, suprisingly, is not bad.
However, at the end of the day, it will sell because it's associated with ipod/apple. If anyone else released this and even if that device worked with itunes, there would be no exposure and no sales in this"I like to copy everyone else" world.
"Actually 18, I heard this at school @ the lockers today...
"My mom got me an iPod shuffle yesterday."
"What's it got on my Muvo TX? Can you get radio on yours?"
"Umm... my mom thinks I'm cool with an iPod."
"Dude, FM radio sucks! Its so 20th-century"
That said, both MuVo and shuffle are stupid names.
It's pathetic that on a tech-geek-intarweb blog like this the best defense people can mount for the Suffle is that it has superior marketing and that soccer moms will buy it. Then they slag off other players with provably superior features and technology(like the muVo TX, iRiver flash or iAudio U2). Many of the competitor's players also sync with iTunes or show up as a movable HD so the usability argument is hogwash. Also, the current version of Rio Music Manager is fantastic (I've been using it for over a year now). .
Personally I think the new iPod is quite appealing but I do NOT see iTunes as a reason to buy an apple mp3/aac player. Most people have collected the bigger part of their digital music collection back in the days of napster (=> might not use the iTMS that frequently) and being forced to use an extra program to actually copy stuff on your mp3-player instead of using the explorer seems to be making it more complex. Nevertheless Im happy with my iPod mini, apart from the fact that it does NOT have an inbuild usb port (that proprietary apple thingy s***s bigtime)
Hey Sweetie Pie:
When does Microsoft have market share on Unix workstations? Last I heard, Apple had Sun beat on those.
People still listen to the radio?
i can't believe this is a feature that people are dying for (nor is voice recording capability). in terms of music, kids will have downloaded the 'hits' they want to listen to-- they're not going to get an MP3 player to listen to the radio until their favorite Lil' John song come on the air. radio is useful for stuff like NPR and news-- fair enough.
people are missing the point-- the average consumer does not want an MP3 player for anything other than playing their MP3s. they're not looking for a PDA.
and did people get this pissed off at sony when their walkman became the defacto name for any portable radio/tape player, a la Kleenex or Band-Aid?
I agree with madtracer, FM radio is considered ancient technology, and voice recording... well, show me one device that broke any sales records because you could record your own voice. Who cares?
One thing that us techies constantly forget is that the average joe doesn't really care about splitting hairs over technical specs. They want simple devices that are designed with the user experience in mind. That's what Apple is very good at making.
Hiro11 says above: "It's pathetic that on a tech-geek-intarweb blog like this the best defense people can mount for the Suffle is that it has superior marketing and that soccer moms will buy it. Then they slag off other players with provably superior features and technology(like the muVo TX, iRiver flash or iAudio U2)."
Dude, you still don't get it. Apple doesn't give a flipping rip about tech geeks that are reading Engadget (no offense, eg) -- this is mainstream. The vast majority of people out there don't care about "superior features." They want it to play their digital music, and they want it to be simple. People are scared of technology.
Apple makes technology that is not scary.
Mr. Hoo is scary.
Anyone noticed that the iPod Shuffle is the first and only digital music player ever released to NOT have a "Repeat Song" feature? Prety suspicious, huh? I bet the clever engineers at Apple are already hard at work with their *next* player... the iPod Repeat! Simple intuitive interface! Listen to your favorite song over and over again-- WITH NO USER INTERVENTION REQUIRED!
Well, I HAD a Nomad Zen. For $219 I got 30 gigs. Not anymore, however. Now I have a 20 Gig Ipod.
Here was the difference for me -
1. The scroll wheel - heaven, simply heaven.
2. Creative music software interface, was simply clunky.
3. Smaller.
Also, it died on me after 9 months.
I think the new Zen's take care of #3, but not the "ease of use" and cool factor of the scroll wheel.
My two cents.
Actually Brian you may want to try using a little thing called the internet:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1194592,00030010.htm
Hiro11 sounds like he's just trying to justify his previous purchase of some inferior flash player with excess features like FM tuner and voice recorder.
It was never about the raw "features" - there were plenty of armchair-CEOs who thought the original would flop, because Archos and Creative's Nomad had more capacity or a lower price, or features like recording.
Hiro11, say it out loud 50 times that the Muvo is superior, it'll make yourself feel better...
Actually MadMan, I think everyone noticed how YOU failed to notice the Shuffle does have a repeat song feature. The power switch is either Off, Repeat, or Shuffle.
If apple sold a sexy looking box of poop you drones would still buy it. "Look at the awesome rounded edges and easy to use UI, it' soo hip."
Remember: a box of poop is a box of poop.
well said #37
Julez, you said, "Most people have collected the bigger part of their digital music collection back in the days of napster."
I'd agree if by "most people" you mean "geeks, a small portion of Apple's target audience." While I'll bet a portion of geeks are going to buy one anyway, that's not who the iPod shuffle is designed for.
There are people who can hack a USB pen drive to play MP3s. Will these people jump at the prospect of buying an Apple-designed music-playing USB pen drive? No, why spend $99 for something they can do themselves?
Face it, most of us in here are geeks, anyway. We don't know how freaking intimidating it really is to try to get our music to a portable device because we're used to this sort of thing. Computers are ends in themselves to us. But to the common population out there, they are means to other things, like listening to music and viewing photos. And the easier and more refined it is, the more it will appeal to the common denominator.
From the original post: 'amnestic journalists'
Amnesiac journalists? Unless you're saying they will declare an amnesty on pointing out the new iPod's alleged failings...
[From the editor: "amnestic" means "An agent that causes amnesia". I was making a point about the press being complicit in a general forgetting about all the other flash players out there.]
Mr. Hoo is missing the key feature that the iPod shuffle does have - Autofill integration with iTunes (load up a specified chunk of its memory with a random sample of your music). Considering the hardware in isolation, you might conclude that the shuffle is inferior. But it's the user experience that matters.
With every cheap Flash player I've tried, you have to do a fair amount of work to keep the music on it fresh - copying files across using the OS's file manager, or battling with music "management" software developed by an indentured team of Taiwanese autists who are never actually exposed to music because it makes them scream and defecate.
With the iPod shuffle, you can presumably set it up so that every time you plug it in, it fills half of its memory with stuff from your "Recently Added" playlist, and the rest with a random selection from your music library. The user experience is "Wake up, sync iPod shuffle while the coffee brews, go jogging to your own personal radio station." You don't want to spend half an hour fiddling around copying tracks across first thing in the morning.
In other words, most of the value of the iPod shuffle hardware is provided by the accompanying software, iTunes. I think the benefits will be most obvious to existing iPod users - 30% or more of shuffle buyers will own iPods already.
Apple's strength is making products while keeping in mind the people who'll actually use them. Creative are getting better, but they still have the tendency to design products by throwing together as many features as possible, and chaining them to an interface that only an engineer could love.
Pre-designed playlists? music is a personal experience why in the hell would you want to listen to what Jenifer GARNER LISTENS TOO?!! Get a life and an identity. Be yourself and tell your wife to stop trying to be someone she is not.
I own an Apple for professional reasons and I think the Ishuffle is crap and not worth the money. It is a featureless product.
Apple lemmings make me nervous because they are so cult like.
Two things:
1) I'm betting the main buyers for the 'Shuffle" will be people that already have an iPod and also want a little one they can stick in their pocket and take to the gym. I.e., they're target is their existing users, not new users.
2) FM radio is pretty dumb, but there are lots of things that transmit locally into the FM band, so having an FM tuner is a good thing. At my gym the various TVs broadcast their audio over FM, with the frequency posted on the TV.
Jeff R: I'll bet an iPod shuffle that 50% of Creative's holiday sales were to people who either though the iPods were hard to find because of popularity or stumblede on them at Wal-Mart and didn't know what they were buying. And now the other 50% of the kids are begging for the shuffle because the Creative player is a PITA. Not Apple-izing, just keepin' it real. This is a VERY one-sided market right now and will be for a long time. iTunes is the key, and the iPods are the lock.
kenny, the repeat function on the power switch is "repeat all," not "repeat song." It really just activates the second innovative function of the iPod Shuffle: "shuffle OFF and keep replaying the playlist in order." One might argue that people who are going to shuffle are not going to want to "repeat song," just like no one ever listens to FM radio, but I was just pointing out (in post 37) what might be some hidden insight on Apples next move. No need to get testy!
I bet half of creative's market is people who bought iPod, only to realize how crappy they are, and sold their iPods on ebay and actually bought something that sounded better because their goal is to listen to music and not wear a fashion statement with crappy iPod earbuds just because they are white. (I've compared those earbuds to my Sony ones. While the Sony ones aren't the best, they sure sounded much better).
Hiro11, the iRiver flash units have the worst UI I've ever seen. Their UI people are morons, or, more likely, do not even exist, and the features are all-but-randomly assigned at the last moment. The joystick is utterly counterintuitive, and the few buttons have cryptic labels that have nothing to do with their many functions (which change moment to moment depending on what mode you happen to be at that instant.)
The Creative units are almost as bad, and calling what they have a "display" is charitable to say the least.
what is so bad about FM radio?? apparently having a software automatically copy your music is attractive to many users (although i do not conider myself to be a geek, id rather do it myself) but FM just comes in handy. Where I live there are loads of good radio stations and above all you can listen to, say a concert you couldnt go to - and as far as i am aware the ipod doesnt have any internet access features to aquire a specific stream/file wirelessly yet ... there FM radio does make sense (and it is terribly cheap as well)
For the people arguing why some product are selling better while they're not the best, go ask Microsoft...
Meritocraty is not a law.
Very disappointed by this product. Lazy work from Apple.
I love how, when it comes to apple products, less features always seems to equal more freedom or more anything. It will sell because its cool. But it's also just a cheaper leash to iTunes.
lol... apple's continues to prove itself a lightning rod...
...i think that all of us should realize that the simple fact that we're reading engadget makes it extremely unlikely that we're their target demographic... the shuffle is meant for top 40 listening kids and wannabe chic soccer moms... it's meant to have easy interface and be sleek, light, and cool... it succeeds in all those areas... you're not meant to cycle through the songs of your favorite album to find the one you like best... you're supposed to stock it FULL of songs you like best... then NO song on the playlist is a disappointment...
...as for the fm radio thing... really... you guys're tech geeks... do you REALLY listen to the radio anymore? if not, why are you so pissed the shuffle doesn't have it... if you do... WHY THE HELL DO YOU LISTEN TO THE RADIO? get some taste... lol...
...and don't say you want to tune in and listen to npr... 'cause then you just defeat your entire argument... this isn't for people who listen to npr...
it's for the kids who want to carry a party playlist in their lighter-pocket (you know, that wierd midget pocket on your jeans)...
it's for the moms who want to look chic as they try to work off the cellulite to their favorite playlist including their favorite hits from celine dion, j-lo, and that ll cool j fellow because (don't tell the hubby) he's so damn cute...
it's for the health nut bicyclist who comes into the coffeeshop reeking of sweat and gingko biloba...
...in short... it's for all those people who don't NEED a display and don't NEED to navigate songs because they don't pay enough attention to music to REALLY appreciate it...
...understand that, and you'll understand why this thing is going to sell like crack-laced hotcakes.
-kev
The problem that this Jap at Creative is addressing is that he *already knows* that Apple's new products will outsell his own crap. He's just trying to preemptively whine.
The whole concept of Shuffling is where Apple shows their true genius. There is nothing new about flash based MP3 players but Apple has put a new spin on it by bringing up concepts that appeal to people. Concepts such as, 'put all your favorite songs and see which one comes up!'
And while it may be simple to use, their Marketing department has done an excellent job - hell, I own a 40gb 3g and I want this one and I don't even know why! (actually I do, just don't know if i can justify cheating on my 40gb for a sexier and skinnier flash).
My thoughts:
1) I think the lack of a screen is a problem. I like the concept of plugging in the Shuffle and having it autofill from your collection, but this concept doesn't work without a screen (at least for me). My mp3 collection is large enough that using a random autofill feature would mean a bunch of songs that I can't identify. Without a screen, there'd be no way to figure out songs that I don't recognize.
2)I have an old MuVo from a year or two ago which I think is great. I also have a 20GB iPod (and I don't use iTunes), which I use more often. I think the greatest asset of the iPod is the scroll wheel, which is moot with the Shuffle.
3) I checked the Shuffle out at the Apple Store today and it looks and feels like a cheap piece of plastic. I was not impressed. I don't think it looks any better than my MuVo.
That said, I have no doubt it will sell well, and kudos to Apple for their marketing and branding ability.
I find it really cute how bashing the market leader is a subsersive pasttime among insecure people. Do you people really think you're some non-conformist just because you're choosing something nobody cares? Oh my god, soccer moms are buying this product, there must be something wrong with it! Look at meeee, I'm so special, I like product B when everyone likes product A!
koan #57 is a good example.
TO Brad Johnson
She'll still be NO JENN GARNER...you can bet the farm on that...!
TO Brad Johnson
She'll still be NO JENN GARNER...you can bet the farm on that...!
You guys ripping on the iPods are hilarious because you're so obviously out of touch with the mainstream Apple is shooting for. You look at it from the techy perspective instead of the average Joe. Apple has succeeded because not only can they build a damn fine player, they can market.
It's for the people out there who want an extremely easy to use MP3 player that is also a cool looking piece of tech, not for the people who know about the difference between a flash based player and a hard-disk based player.
People like 50 don't really get that, and neither does anyone who attacks the iPod on the merit of it's features (or lack thereof).
Yes, part of the allure of the iPod is that it looks cool instead of ugly. You can kick and scream about it if you want, but Apple makes sharp, sleek stuff and that's part of the allure that puts them ahead of everyone else.
A lot of these other players have iTunes support, but the fact of the matter is that most folks are going to want to get the whole Apple package.
The ease of use is an ENORMOUS factor, as Josh Williams pointed out. Apple's popularity due to the iPod has entrenched them in the aura of super-ease-of-use.
It's going to take more than a Muvo to defeat it. You can tell they're not going to put a large dent in the mainstream based on that CEO's comments.
Don't be fooled by abundancy features noone really cares about such as FM or voice recording, all of these companies are playing catch-up to the iPod and will continue to do so until they can market in the same league as Apple. They'll have to bust their asses just to penetrate their market, at this point.
Sim Wong Hoo is a moron.
The iPod shuffle is NOTHING like players they had 4 years ago:
- Players 4 years ago didn't come with 1 GIGABYTE of storage (ESP. at the price that Apple is currently selling the iPod flash for)
- Players 4 years ago weren't backed up by software anywhere NEAR as good as iTunes
- Players 4 years ago weren't backed up by an online music store anywhere NEAR as good as the iTunes music store
- Players 4 years ago didn't have lithium rechargable batteries, rechargable via USB (esp. with the playing time of the iPod flash)
- Players 4 years ago didn't have USB2.0 (because USB2.0 didn't exist back then)
- Players 4 years ago weren't backed up by the 3rd party accessory makers anywhere near the extent that iPod products are today
Kap
FM radio is important to my wife and I for one reason: Our gym broadcasts the audio for their TVs over FM. Personally, I'd rather listen to music, but when I pitched the iPod Shuffle to my wife, she shut me down immediately due to the lack of a radio.
Why the iPod shuffle is a winner:
- A USB2 1Gig flash drive is $100 at least.
- iTunes Music Store is huge.
- USB charging
They're going to sell hundreds of thousands of these... even to some existing iPod owners who want a kick-around device for exercising and other more harsh environments.
TARGET CUSTOMER
This is not a mp3 player for a tech geek like myself, this is the player for my girlfriend, mom... someone who has a "real" life, haha.
I think Ipod shuffle is brilliant from a money making perspective. It is truley a portable audio player for the masses.
1) Inexpenisive
2) Basic/Simple
3) Small
4) Nice Design
5) Itunes (this is a playlist player)
Sorry Mr. Creative dude, but you are missing the point.
I don't see the fuss over the Shuffle. Apple are pushing the shuffle option as if it's some incredible new technology, even though it's been around since the dawn of the CD.
But as long as it's white, got rounded corners and starts with an "i", people will buy it just for the ridiculous "cool" factor that surrounds iPods. And what's so great about iTunes? I personally only ever use it to convert music, and that's it. I much prefer winamp, and all of you who put down Creative's software obviously haven't used the new stuff that comes with the Zen Micro. I myself bought a MuVo2 4Gb about 2 months before the iPod mini came out, and I don't even have to use the software. I can plug it into any PC above Win 98 and it'll be picked up as a removable disk, allowing me to work my file structure whatever way I want, as well as allowing me to stick stuff from work on it. Add to that the battery life, which is about 12 hours at decent volume, and it beats the iPod mini straight out in terms of specification and price, but everyone just buys the mini because of this "cool" factor.
The Shuffle is just plain overrated. Want to play stuff at random without knowing what track is coming next? Take your iPod or whatever mp3 player you have, set it on random and put it in your pocket. There, no screen to spoil the suprise of what's up next.
TARGET CUSTOMER
This is not a mp3 player for a tech geek like myself, this is the player for my girlfriend, mom... someone who has a "real" life, haha.
I think Ipod shuffle is brilliant from a money making perspective. It is truley a portable audio player for the masses.
1) Inexpenisive
2) Basic/Simple
3) Small
4) Nice Design
5) Itunes (this is a playlist player)
Sorry Mr. Creative dude, but you are missing the point.
It still amazes how many of you are in total denial of Apple's genius to market to the mainstream instead of geeks.
You can tell just by the "I won't buy it because it's a fashion statement!" tripe.
Really, there's so much more to a product than just it's features. There's a whole psychological aspect to it that just totally escapes some of you.
"If Creative has such a superior product then why is their market share so low?"
You are kidding, right?
If Windows PCs are so bad, and Mac OS X PCs are so good, how come Apple's market share in the PC market is only 3%?
Dominance and product quality are little related. That's why.
I have a mini ipod that I take to the gym. I've yet to use it while doing weights, but when I use the elliptical trainer it is annoying as hell to try and look at the display so I don't. Since I don't (and I mostly use it at the gym) why the hell do I have a display. For this situation the Shuffle is perfect.
Secondly, let me add my voice to those who point out that it isn't for geeks. It's for people who don't want to think about tech.
Finally, who cares if it sells because it looks cool or has a nice brand, it still will sell. A few years ago I went to a car show and stopped by the KIA booth (the guy looked lonely, I was sorry for him) their SUV has a mercedes benz engine in it. The Mercedes booth was swarming, the KIA guy could have been naked and using hula hoops and no one would have noticed. Design, perception of brand superiority etc sell. Period.
"I have a mini ipod that I take to the gym. I've yet to use it while doing weights, but when I use the elliptical trainer it is annoying as hell to try and look at the display so I don't. Since I don't (and I mostly use it at the gym) why the hell do I have a display. For this situation the Shuffle is perfect."
If that's the target, the target is a very small market, right?
The intersection of these 3 populations:
1) People who go to the gym
2) People who listen to music while exercising
3) People who are willing to spend $100+ on a tiny piece of plastic
So, in that very specific market, it's going to sell very well. I give you that.
Spammers please spam me at: PHILVID2@comcast.net
Why can't Apple ad a god damn FM radio to thier iPods? I mean come on how much can it add to the price, a buck or two? I like to listen to NPR and the news when away from my car and with an iPod you can't do that. WHY? WHY? WHY? Come on $250.00 for a 4GB iPod mini and they can't figure out how to put a lousy FM radio in it. Ipod's have been out what 4 years and the geniuses over at Apple have yet to figure out an FM radion would be nice!
Apple Shuffle...
scenario #1.
I download some new songs released from my favourite bands (around 30+) load them up on my new flash player and then listen to them on the way to work... i look at my player trying to find out what track number it is, what the song name is and cos the song sound hella different - what the band is!??!?! AAAAARRGGHHH! I guess i'll be shuffling my Shuffle onto ebay and buying something with a frickin' screen and a Radio (which is already on shuffle :P )
Moral of the story is:
Didn't you know that Apple can milk too?
-- Why can't Apple ad a god damn FM radio to
-- thier iPods?
I know it's not quite the same thing, but you should get a Griffin RadioShark.
http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/radioshark/
Brilliant device for putting radio content on your Mac/iPod.
Kap
I'd rather have an iRiver than a flash based iPod.
FM tuner
Voice recording and FM recording
MP3 and OGG support
Up to 40 hour battery life with good ol' AA batts (already have reachargables because of my camera)
Nice little screen and easy to navigate
I find it hypocritical for someone to defend the extra cost of an iPod based on it's extra features and ease of use and to then turn around and try to say the iPod shuffle is awesome due to it's being simple and (relatively) cheap for it's storage. It's not that apple is the be-all end-all for creating the best mp3 playing products, it's that apple is covering both fields (feature rich and more costly vs simple and cheap) and markets to the niche that isn't being filled yet. This is a good product for some people, for others it isn't. Apple doesn't make the "best" mp3 players, they make good products that people can make use of.
Jonathan makes a good point, and if I may boil it down, it's like the eternal Apple vs everything else debate. Either you like them or you don't.
Teehee, I find #75 to be terribly amusing.
Are people really going to take all of that time and effort to get a free shuffle?
I would understand for a $250+ thing, but for a $99/150?
Maybe that's overkill. Or just how far people are willing to go to own something with the ipod name. I understand that 99/150 isnt pocket change for everyone (definitely not me), but I don't think I'd be willing to do all of the necessary coaxing to get 42 other people to sign up for it.
I don't have time to read all of the comments that you Apple people are making, but you just don't get it, this thing isn't cheap! Let me repeat this, THIS THING ISN'T CHEAP!!!! If you compare players like this based on price to players like creative's and iriver's, they include high quality lcd screens with backlights, intuitive control schemes, long battery times, and similar weights and dimensions, for the same or maybe a little bit more or a little bit less.
The fact that this thing doesn't include an lcd means that they could have included a comparatively huge battery in it. The fact that the battery only lasts 12 hours is pitifull. Remember, the only thing this battery is powering is the audio hardware, that's it! They could have filled out the rest of the device with a nice sized battery and at least got the 17-18 hours that comparable players at creative and iriver get with built-in rechargeable batteries.
So let's sum up. THIS THING ISN'T CHEAP! I am supremely confident that Apple is making their usual profit margin on this device, but people will buy it because it has the word ipod in the title, and because it looks comparatively cheap compared to the other ipods. and only compared to the other ipods! You people will buy it because you have nothing better to do with your money. Any Apple will profit off of your devotion, and the normal consumer's stupidity. The cycle continues
Do you think Apple do not know how to put an FM radio, display, laser poiinter, voice recording, flash light, a can opener and all the other "cool" features to an iPod Shuffle?
LMAO......
Just look at the logo of Creative, and then take a look at the packaging of an iPod (not the shuffle). If you have not, go find one.
After you take a look at them, if you do not understand why Apple has the biggest market share becasue of Apple's design and marketing, you should take this to Slashdot for the real Geek talk.
Do you realize what you people are saying. That apple's marketing is what allows them to sell amazing amounts of their products. Maybe you people finally get it. That's why. They spend 50 cents more on the package and spend millions on advertising, but they got you by gouging you on the price. That is why they are still in business, not because they make innovative products, but because they make innovative packages and have innovative marketing. And you pay for every cent of that marketing and packaging, believe me. Just think of it, whenever you see an ipod comercial, think, I paid for that.
I don't know about you, but I don't buy a product because of innovative marketing or packaging.
It was something to watch Steve Jobs hold the Mac mini yesterday, in its little cardboard box with the little plastic handle. Is it me or is that a little gay. I don't know. Go see it for yourself.
so, do you think you are not paying for any of the advertising on TV, megazine, billboard, Web site, Google, newpaper, side of a bus, or any other media?
When was the last time you buy something and you have not seen the company or product on TV?
Do you thing bottled water really taste better then filtered tap water?
LOL....
-- It was something to watch Steve Jobs hold the -- Mac mini yesterday, in its little cardboard
-- box with the little plastic handle. Is it me
-- or is that a little gay. I don't know. Go
-- see it for yourself.
It's just you.
I thought it was remarkable. Imagine being able to go out to the shops and bring home a Mac in a box the size of the iPod box (as opposed to lugging home a huge piece of PC crap).
Kap
82: At 100 bucks for a tiny, tiny MP3 player with the Apple brand name on it (meaning great support and native iTunes support) that also doubles as a 512 meg thumbdrive, yeah, it is pretty cheap. If you can't afford it then you're clearly not in Apple's target market anyhow.
Joey: you spoke about how Apple only excel in marketing and packaging. I say to you: use OS X for a month. Ask any iPod owner how happy they are with their iPods. Ask any techno-geek who has OS X how happy they are with it.
I assure you, it goes beyond merely packaging and marketing (but they are excellent at both, and contribute to the whole "niceness" of buying Apple).
In the end, it's how happy you are with a product, not the amount of features on it. I totally understand where you guys are coming from, I laughed when the first iPod was announced, thinking it was a joke. Then I ended up getting one due to lots of recommendations. Due to the sheer efficiency, UI, and general niceness of the iPod, I bought a new Powerbook.
Give the stuff a try, seriously.
Some Q4 2004 numbers for y'all.
iPods sold: 4.58 million
Macs sold: about 1 million
PCs sold: 52 million
Digital format market shares ("music collection")
: MP3 - 72%, WMA - 19.6%, AAC - 4.3%
Online music market shares: iTunes - 70%, Napster - 11%, Real, MusicMatch, WalMart - 6%
Apple has about 87% of the hard drive based player market.
my tap water tastes pretty dank, but maybe that's just me. All I was saying is that the exorbitant amount of money that Apple spends on the fancy packaging for their products and the unbelievably amount of advertising, that have nothing to do with the cost of the product, but that is why people buy it. Once they have spent the money, appleheads say stuff like, "It is so intuitive! Apple designs the best products!" But that is just not true. If people spent some time with the non-apple products, they would see a whole new world of value and usabilty, but mostly a whole new world of options.
You guys gotta think about it though. So, many people don't use those products features. Then don't include them. But price the product accordingly, so it reflects the lack of features (lackluster battery, no screen, etc). Apple didn't do that. 99 is a lot to pay for an audio chipset/hardware, 512 mb of flash memory, and some white acrylic plastic. Come on.
Yeah but don't worry, Joey. I can afford it.
Once again we must ask ourselves if Apple-fanatics are really a bunch of out of work clowns.
Really? That's funny, most macheads I know use Windows at work or are techies that are into Unix or whatnot. Zealous? Sure. Uninformed/unexposed? Nuh-uh. OS X is geek heaven because it merges the power of BSD/Unix with an outstanding GUI. Not because the package is pretty or because of the extensive advertising that Apple does with it's computers (cough cough).
"If people spent some time with the non-apple products, they would see a whole new world of value and usability, but mostly a whole new world of options."
I take it that you have an iPod or Mac computer?
"All I was saying is that the exorbitant amount of money that Apple spends on the fancy packaging for their products and the unbelievably amount of advertising, that have nothing to do with the cost of the product, but that is why people buy it."
No - people are buying them because the market thinks they're great and the word-of-mouth has gotten around. The advertising certainly helps, but it is NOT the driving force. The driving force is that the iPod is a great little player. If you want features it doesn't have or it's too expensive for you that's one thing, it's another thing to dismiss it's success as a function of marketing and packaging.
"Even the cheap, cheap Chinese brand...", does "cheap" == "low quanlity" ???
Hey Gramps, Creative sold 2 million MP3 players in Q4 2004. Not bad huh?