Mac mini: VGA trauma?
posted March 7th 2005 11:41AM
Angry Mac mini users are flocking to Apple's support site to complain about problems with the display quality when hooking their minis up to their VGA monitors (which is sort of making it hard to follow Apple's advice that you Bring Your Own Keyboard, Display, and Mouse). Common complaints include low brightness and flat-out non-functionality. The official response from Apple thus far has been a cool "your monitor is incompatible" approach. Some of the issues can reportedly be resolved by removing some of the pins on the Apple-supplied DVI-to-VGA converter, or picking up a third-party adapter — though some users report that even with these methods their displays are still too dark. Wouldn't it be nice if Apple would deign to shed some light on this issue?
typical apple response. give us your money then you are on your own...unless of course you want to give us more money.
bc
Couldn't this be simply that pcs & macs use different gamma values?
Have those users tried to calibrate their crt displays?
(Sorry for my bad english, i'm spanish :P )
First the G5 iMac heating issues, now this?
Where's that attention to detail Apple claims in its designs?
Oh wait, I almost forgot about all the iPod issues in the last couple of years...
The obsessive love people have for Apple is beyond me; the love for their products (when they function right) I can understand, but the cult of Apple and Jobs is misplaced. They have had quality control problems for years, they always deny these issues b4 finally capitulating; they charge outrageous coin for accessories that should be included in products; they hound Apple loyalists who excitedly trade secrets about their papa. Basically, Apple acts as any other self-interested, somewhat indifferent monolith. It is not a _good_ company; it is shrewd, power-weilding, and arrogant entity that should inspire wariness, not affection.
Deign, v. intr.: condescend, descend -- do something that one considers to be below one's dignity
a conspiracy to sell more Mac display monitors
Hmmm... other than gamma values which are easily callibratable, do these individulas get frequency out of range problems? The only time that I've had problems getting a monitor to work is if the frequencies are not correct, or if they try to set the resolution to more than is capable
Everything on the VGA monitors at work ALWAYS looks dark on Windows systems. If I want to see what a picture really looks like I have to send to the mac.
I have a Mac mini hooked up to an obsolete crappy old VGA monitor and it works fine - no hitch whatsoever.
I am planning to buy a 19" LCD with DVI input and assume that that will work fine. These can be found for less than $350 now.
Welcome to the open market Apple. Gee, suddenly something as simple as a DVI/VGA converter is a big compatibility issue.
The main reason Apples products work so well is because they control every aspect of the user experience. Should be interesting to see how far down the toilet Apples consumer satisfaction ratings go the more and more they open their products up.
why the hell is it that anytime theres a problem that comes to light with an apple product, there is guaranteed to be a post like #2 above?
yes, some people are crazy about apple.
and yes, apple is just another company trying to make money.
who_gives_a_shit_?
Everything on the VGA monitors at work ALWAYS looks too bright on Mac systems. If I want to see what a picture really looks like I have to send to Windows.
for the record, #2 has been moved to #3....
in my post above, i refer to the post by david.
Yet nobody ever will complain about Apple.. somehow it's their cute little friend.. ugh.
This latest charming response from Apple reminds me of what they told me and countless other eMac owners when we discovered that our all-in-one wasn't functional as an all-in-one because the speakers caused the screen to go nuts: "You can buy extra speakers." That, after I had just fought hard to return an iMac that crashed more often, and more inexplicably, than any other computer I've used.
There's nothing wrong with comment #3. It's just summarizing past issues with Apple, which is good to know if one's buying some of their products.
"yes, some people are crazy about apple. and yes, apple is just another company trying to make money."
And just like all other companies, we discuss their successes and failures. It's the normal thing to do. The only problem happens when a brand zealot gets upset that someone else said something bad about /their/ company, then the zealot starts swearing. ::rollseyes::
"who_gives_a_shit_?"
'nuff said.
"Welcome to the open market Apple. Gee, suddenly something as simple as a DVI/VGA converter is a big compatibility issue. "
Well, you know, it's not as if this is the first Mac people have ever used with non-Apple monitors. At my last job, most of the Mac people (we were a mixed office) had Sony monitors. And some of them were using DVI adapters (though usually ones that came with either the monitor or graphics cards, not with the Mac).
As for the gamma thing, aren't Macs using 2.2 now just like Windows? I thought 1.8 had been phased out.
re: relax zack
just a couple points -
-i posted this as a primarily windows user. i do support both systems in my job, however, and enjoy the ease of supporting macs as opposed the general pain-in-the-a** that is supporting windows.
-to intimate that posters in various forums dont take any opportunity to rag on apple specifically is naive. or shows that one doesn't read around much.
or that (this) one reads too much.
-i didnt mean to offend by swearing, but it was that or find some creative punctuation/formatting to express the emotion.
Macs come preset to 1.8, I set my two Sony HMD440 monitors on my G5 to 2.2 for web work, but always go back to the preset 1.8 for video and print work. Most likely these people are having problems with the resolution and or refresh rate on their monitors, because every non-mac monitor in my house from these Sony's and a few old 14" relics to one upscale Viewsonic LCD work fine with Apple's DVI-VGA adapter, once you get the settings right in the Sys Prefs.
mine worked fine with my 17inch viewsonic lcd. course i had to adjust some color settings but thats a given.
I experienced this recently and fixed it by switching to a different (higher) resolution.
A good source of user comments on the issue: http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/feedback/mac_mini_dim_video.html
Looks to me like there is an issue.
- Jasen.
"-to intimate that posters in various forums dont take any opportunity to rag on apple specifically is naive. or shows that one doesn't read around much. or that (this) one reads too much."
For every company out there, especially big ones, there are people who'll rag on them, with or without reason. It's not just Apple being "targeted", and not just in internet forums. If you think the complaints are unsubstantiated, present your arguments against them and let the others decide. But one thing's for sure: just whining about the complaints and calling people names ("naive"? lol) isn't going to further your cause or make you look any better.
To summarize all the above, the real issue is that for a company so in love with the look of its products, they often fail to tend their public image with the same doting attention.
While a clear element of the Mac mystique is the whole Cult of Mac groupthink, the reality is that Apple frequently does itself harm by 1)alienating its very core customer base and 2)turning off a those who are on the cusp of "thinking different."
Not good overall approaches for a company.
I say this being a Mac girl; I came back to Mac with the iMac, and continued to waffle until I purchased a 15" TiBook four years ago or so. After that survived multiple falls from table tops and a tumble down a full flight of stairs, where moi landed on top of it, a few months later I gladly purchased a 17" PB G4.
However, there are times when I feel nickeled and dimed and/or generally unappreciated by the company. Not a good business move in my opinion.
Once again we must ask ourselves if Apple is really run by out of work clowns
This reminds me of an ad that Apple did a while back against M$: "Plug and Pray?"
re: You're the naive one
the point is not whether the complaints are unsubstantiated or not. the point is that apple has an incredibly dedicated user base (justified or not), and that there are many (bitter?) people who love to take any opportunity to bash them (warranted or not).
it just doesnt happen on the same scale with other cos.
#10:
Some facts:
>Welcome to the open market Apple.
Apple has been operating on the open market since 1975.
>Gee, suddenly something as simple as a DVI/VGA converter is a big compatibility issue.
It is a pricing issue, they chose lower price over solid hardware. The converter does not comply to the VESA spec, which makes it incompatible to some monitors.
You can find more detailed information on macintouch: http://www.macintouch.com/macmini/review.html#disp
>The main reason Apples products work so well is because they control every aspect of the user experience. Should be interesting to see how far down the toilet Apples consumer satisfaction ratings go the more and more they open their products up.
You will be surprised to learn that there are no proprietary hardware interfaces on current macs. There is also a very strong movement towards standards on the software side. There is broad support for network protocols, web standards, file systems, and document formats. OS X has a BSD sub system that makes gigabytes of open source software available on the platform.
The ipod uses mp3 and aac, both being standards (fairplay is proprietary though!). Apple recently released a decoder for ALAC (http://craz.net/programs/itunes/alac.html), and has contributed to the KHTML project and various others.
I don't think you will find any major commercial desktop operating system being more "open" than Apples. And you won't find any DRM system providing music from major labels that is more tolarable.
i must say that i haven't had any display issues with mine. I'm using an old monitor, and the keyboard from my defunct iMac. I also took a PC3200 dimm out of my PC (512M) and it worked as well. I'd even buy a 2nd one.
"For every company out there, especially big ones, there are people who'll rag on them, with or without reason. It's not just Apple being 'targeted', and not just in internet forums."
The point zack is making is that whenever there's a story about a problem with an Apple product, the Apple-haters come out of the woodwork to make snide Apple-bashing posts about the company that in no way contribute to the discussion.
There's clearly an issue with the DVI-to-VGA adapters shipping with the Mac mini. I even stuck mine between my Dell and my Dell monitor, connnecting the two via VGA -- the result was a very blurry image. But a problem with a 50-cent part is far from grounds for condemning the entire company, especially when people do so by pulling stuff out of their asses. (Example: "Apple has had quality control problems for years" Bull. Apple's QC has objectively been among the best in the industry; it's just that Apple's less-common QC problems are *much* more heavily publicized.)
(Of course, because I had the *gasp* nerve to say something positive about Apple, someone will probably play the "Apple fanatic" card. Sorry, I'm a Windows- and Unix- using IT guy.)
apple's safari browser sucks balls...(doesnt work worth a flip).
Wow these Mac VS PC debates are always so intelligent and well thought out.
Anyway, I am a PC user with no dislike for Apple and I purchased the Mini the day it was on sale. I now have it attached to an Optiquest V95 CRT and it is VERY dim. This same display is very bright on my PC. I have also switched the Apple supplied DVI to VGA converter for the one I use on my PC with no benefit. Yes I have checked the gama.
Above and beyond the dim display issue I see a ghosted image to the right of any high contrast area of the screen. This is very evident on red on black shots like the tshirt flash add on the left bottom side of evilavitar.com.
I contacted Apple about this three weeks ago and was told that I was the first person to report a display issue with the Mini. From the looks of the support forum, I was lied to.
I think the biggest problem is Customer Service. Not just Apple, but nearly all big companies, and some some small companies wanting to act like big companies, throughout the US. It seems being put on hold in hopes you will hang up, giving automated vague or unrelated email responses, changing your tech support number every so often or having CSR's who have no product knowledge and lookup responses through a script book are becoming the norm. As nearly more and more, if not all production, goes out to Asia and the sticker now says" DESIGNED IN AMERICA" instead of made, customer service should be playing the biggest role in company today; but sadly it is not. Sales marketing seems to be the biggest concern. Companies are more concerned about demographics, the funny commercial with the hip song, what other product they can piggyback on to make revenue(pepsi), how to make money on the DRM bandwagon or giving stupid info seminars about how their product blows the doors off an open-source piece of software after numerous studies debunking them have proved the opposite. They do all this when they should just be listening to the people who give them revenue. Companies need to wake up and start taking care of their customers. Ship your product in a recycled puke colored box and use the extra money to hire FACTORY TRAINED 24/7 online tech support. Not for just 90 days, but for 2 years and a reasonably priced support package for after that period. Put on your website that someone will answer your tech call in 30 seconds or less and your problem will be solved on that call. LET TECH SUPPORT ACTUALLY CALL OUT INSTEAD OF INBOUND! Companies should be making support a religion, not a plague. Some companies aren't bad, but most are terrible. Some make great and fantastic products too. But when you have a problem that stops your work flow or enjoyment, it doesn't matter what kind of hype is behind a product, it just plain sucks unless it's solved quickly.
I've used a mac since the first incarnation. As far as a computer platform, it's the best on the market at present when taking into account features and performance. I do audio and could not live without a mac. But, without the use of specialty websites and Apple's own forums, I probably would not have made it through my tech troubles during my years. I have gone through considerable tech pain. And Apple and many other companies could do a lot, lot, lot better.
MAKE CUSTOMER SUPPORT A RELIGION.
Just get a quality DVI to VGA adapter.
http://geek.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=400637/
http://www.svideo.com/dvi.html
I think I'm a Blatant Mac Fanatic (nearly got me and my Boss fired for requisitioning Mac over Wintel's back in '97) my Orgs IT, hates me to this day. I am only occasionally a Apple Inc. Fanatic. I own AAPL, I purposely flew my family of six to the Bay Area to visit friends but also so I could drive down to Cupertino and visit 1 Infinite Loop. So I've established my creditials, Qui!
Having said that Apple often deserves the criticism it gets. While I've personally benefited from the generosity of company's employees, I've also been shocked and appalled by some of its heavy handed actions and lack of attention to detail. I often wish Mac Users would get a grip, it's an empowering synthesis of hardware and software but it don't bleed and hug it all you want, it won't hug back. Yes, sometimes I think we protest a tad too much, but empowerment does that.
I'm no expert on Apple but actions such as these are what I've come to expect. The company is by no means perfect, it's just a bunch of people trying the best they know how to make a buck or have a lot of fun and make a buck. If those of us who love and respect what they do don't give feedback in the form of decent, protest, or even boycott we could see the entity we so appreciate whither.
Yeah, Apple invokes passion both pro and con, THATs GREAT, think of the alternative. Does Sony get this kind of reaction, how about Gateway? When you view the comments over at pc-World.com and the like kind sites, is there someone saying how much they love Dell, IBM and dare I say it Microsoft? Maybe it's just me, but the only time I hear a Wintel user get passionate is usually in response to a reaction to someone's Mac reaction.
Apple inspires passion! Good, someone needs to.
I have my TFT connected to my mac mini with the DVI-VGA adaptor and the image quality is the best I have ever seen. It is bright and crisp.
In fact it is too bright at night. I had to get brighter lights so that I wouldn't strain my eyes!!
I think Customer Services at Apple have gone down hill in the last few years, which means that when a few problems such as these appear, it is made that much worse.
It is a shame that good products are failed by one department of the company, and maybe Apple should invest some of the monies coming in from the increased sales on retraining their people and also not farming out overseas to save money.
The comments above remind me of my days in the meat business. I sold what was arguably the best-performing pepperoni available, and by that I mean it was extremely consistent when cooked - no surprises.
Other's pepperoni would be good one batch, and burn in the oven the next.
What this meant (and how it applies to Apple) is that because people expected great things from my product the least little variation was cause for concern. I'd often visit a customer with "problems" only to find out it was not my product's fault, but the new cheese he was using that cooked poorly and affected the look of the product (pizza). But....I always visited the customer - it was good for business.
Long story short - Apple must understand that because of its rep. for high quality the smallest issues are magnified tenfold because we expect more from Apple. Dealing with these correctly and swiftly is paramount to its continued success and positive mindshare, especially with a crossover product like the mini. This is Apple's time to show they care about *every* product in the line, if they want mini owners to move up in the future.
Is there a monitor compatibility list somewhere?
I was thinking of buying me a MacMini, but I'm not so sure now...And with that kind of attitude from support...
"It is a pricing issue, they chose lower price over solid hardware. The converter does not comply to the VESA spec, which makes it incompatible to some monitors."
That was *really* dumb, wasn't it? Making a monitor that doesn't comply with a universal industry-wide spec. Way to go, Apple! I was on the verge of getting a MiniMac, but I won't now. Are we supposed to get special Apple monitors? Fuck that.
And my guess is a year from now, the MiniMacs will *still* have the same problems, because apparently it takes years for Apple to come out with new hardware.
Apple Computer makes such dumb moves that it makes me angry. Sure, they have a better product than Windows, but, come on! Non-VESA ?!?!?! ARE YOU KIDDING ?!
#40:
>That was *really* dumb, wasn't it?
Yes, indeed.
>Are we supposed to get special Apple monitors?
I don't know what's special about Apple monitors. All of their monitors have DVI, so the problem will not appear. But the monitors hardly become "special" because of this.
If you experience this problem (it seems appear quite often, but certainly not with _every_ mac mini), you should definitely contact apple and complain about.
This is the only way to get them to fix the problem.
Yup there are some problems with the Apple computers. But come on, Windows takes the cake form its share of problems. Lets see, blue screen, virus, security issues, crashing on a daily basis & sometimes more. The list can go on all day. So unless you actually have a Mac and a PC (yes I do) you don't have a place to comment on it.
Yup there are some problems with the Apple computers. But come on, Windows takes the cake form its share of problems. Lets see, blue screen, virus, security issues, crashing on a daily basis & sometimes more. The list can go on all day. So unless you actually have a Mac and a PC (yes I do) you don't have a place to comment on it.
It's not a monitor problem. The Mini I have seen was not connected to anything special, monitor wise. Just an old VGA 14" monitor. If the monitor were part of the problem this would be vastly more widespread a problem. It's a big issue now, but it would be 10 times the problem we are hearing about now.
I use my Mac Mini -as a portable machine- in different places with a pair of Philips 150s TFTs, a Philips 170S4 TFT, a cheap Mag 14" TFT -that sometimes I take with the Mac-, and an unnamed ProView CRT, and all of them (VGA) go pretty crisp, even I keep contrast and bright below 40%. All of them shared with my little Via EpiaM PC project, and no different bright I can perceive.
But the bad Apple support gets me worried about future.
What can it be if something more shows deffective?
I'd prefer not to know.
Lys
Spain
As I know it from my powerbook the DVI-VGA Adapter ist poor I went to the shop and connect my Eizo CRT to the new macmini and I was not disappointed. Same bad thing.
So I would not buy one of this Macminis cause if I have to buy a TFT with DVI input too, I can buy a iMac G5.
I heard that some people say they have no problems - ok that could be or they have never seen a CRT with a 10 Bucks VGA Card under W2K or XP - and maybe this is why we now hear about this - because the switchers see the difference.
So if Apple wants to sell the Macmini to people who still have a CRT or a TFT without DVI Input they have to change this (The VGA-output is below VESA-Standard) otherwise the will have a problem.
And it is not a solution to say: "Buy a Third-Party-Product to make it run" - why should I buy another thing if they say bring your own monitor! If I want to build a system by myself I can buy a PC.
Greetings from MacImPott
DJ
Hello All,
I'd like to pipe up and add my 2 cents about the Mac Mini montor adapter.
I picked up my Mac Mini just a few days ago. The adapter that came with the Mini seemed fine at first and I have it hooked to a NEC FE991 - a great 19" Trinitron screen.
One day later I decide to up the res to 1600 x 1200. I start getting intermitent flickering with the screen... going to blue, then fading back to the normal desktop. What gives? Who knows. Figure it's a hardware issue not properly supporting high res so I dropped back to 1300 something.
Then I noticed that the screen seemed a bit less vibrant when compared with my older Quicksilver tower. As a designer I work with color every day, and certainly noticed the problem. It does appear subtle at first though.
How did I resolve? We have several new G5 towers at work that use a similar adapter. However, it has a short 3 inch cable between the DVI and VGA connections. As soon as I put it on the Mini it solved the screen flicker at high res, corrected the colors, and even sharpened the overall picture! The output is incredible now and looks just as good as my G5 at the office!
Conclusion:
Mac Mini adapter - POS
G5 monitor adapter - Rocks!
I think we all need to start flooding Apple with requests to swap out the crap adapter for the better - no scratch that - PROPER adapter!
You shouldn't have to spend 2 grand on a system just to get a proper monitor adapter. Apple should have stuck with what already worked from the G5. Like most companies they probably figured it could save them a few dollars by using a cheaper adapter. Perhaps when enough people complain they'll wise up and spend a few extra dollars correcting their mistake and stop trying to blame it on defective or incompatible screens.
That's the way I see it... from a loyal Mac User.
Paul Grant
Toronto, Canada
Sometimes we all speak too soon.
I'm returning my Mac Mini today.
After more testing I was able to confirm that there is not just a problem with the VGA adapter that ships with the Mini, but a video problem with the Mini itself.
Firstly, the video flicker is caused either just by the shipping video adapter on its own, or it in conjuction with a not fully compatible Mac Mini.
Secondly, the video on board is bad because I've tested this with the G5 adapter on multiple monitors and found the problem to still exist.
At first the G5's adapter did offer some relief and a slighty brighter picture. But after further inspection I found the dimness to still be there.
How you can test this out without running out and getting a new adapter...
VGA monitors (all the good ones) have on-screen adjustment display. This is generated by the VGA's brain, and always displays at the strongest contrast possible, as well as strong brightness. It sits overtop in the center of your screen covering the incoming external video source image. With my monitor (NEC FE991) hooked up to the mini, I would open a blank Safari page so I could see the overall whiteness of it. Then, I would activate my on-screen adjustment display over top. Now because the NEC has a white adjustment display coming right from the monitor itself, you're able to directly view it against the performance of the incoming signal. I would say without a doubt that the Mac mini is only outputing at about 80% compared to other Macs... VGA, DVI whatever. Incoming white points looked like a hazy gray.... and this is after many adjustments and calibrations. You can probably do this same test with your VGA display as long as some large area of your OSD is white.
Some may like this effect if coming from an oversaturated PC setting. Others still might like how it's output cools down the image of very hot LCD's. However, since I do a lot of color work, it has to go back.
Word to the wise - always buy your Mac product at a place that allows returns. I picked mine up at Best Buy on the weekend and it goes back their today. 14 day returns on Computers - just DON'T open any of the bundled software or they might not take it back. Forget about fixing this issue under warranty. Apple is in complete denial about the problem. Looks like I'll be holding out for Rev. B.
Best of luck!
Paul Grant
Toronto, Canada
There's some information on at least a partial solution to the brightness/contrast VGA problems here.
Oops - sorry - the link got lost. It's here:
http://www.statusq.org/archives/2005/03/21/644/