Judge rules that Apple can subpoena fan sites
posted March 11th 2005 9:03PM
There will surely be at least one more round of appeals before this is all over, but a judge in California has ruled that Apple can force Nfox.com, PowerPage's hosting provider, to divulge emails which might help them discover who exactly at Apple leaked info about their still-unannounced Asteroid Firewire interface. Not exactly encouraging news, but contrary to what's been going around, the judge hasn't explicitly ruled that writers for blogs and fan sites don't deserve the same kinds of protections traditionally reserved for journalists and members of the press (though he doesn't exactly sound too sympathetic). In fact the judge makes it plain his decision (which is in PDF form here) that he doesn't think it matters whether anyone involved in this case is a journalist or not, since privilege doesn't apply to in this case. He says that there is "no license conferred on anyone to violate valid criminal laws" related to the protection of trade secrets, and that even if he did choose to define PowerPage and the other sites as journalistic endeavors, he would have ruled exactly the same way. The real issue, then, is whether you can take legal action against a third-party that publishes trade secrets that have been leaked to them (Apple filed a separate suit against ThinkSecret alleging that they induced Apple employees to steal trade secrets). Obviously Apple wants to go after anyone who passes along their trade secrets, but some legal experts think that while it would be fine to take action against someone under NDA who leaks a trade secret, that in the interest of protection freedom of press it should be perfectly permissible for news outlets to publish this sort of information. This is all starting to get pretty damn messy.
This is ridiculous. Apple is wasting their share holders money and frustrating some of its strongest supporters by bringing these stupid lawsuits. While they have every right to do so they are only hurting themselves Im not saying that this will turn, true hard-core Apple Users, against them it is just plain Stupid.....
These sights (Engadget, tradesecret, etc.) exist for people like me that are hard-core internet and computer users that want to know what might be coming around the corner. These sights just get people like us all hot and bothered and even more ready to buy when the newest peice of technology comes out. I am not a Mac owner although I am going to buy a Mini when Tiger comes out. I applaud Engadget and others who release the newest technology news religiously on a day-2-day basis, you have people like me hooked to the tune of 3 or 4 visits a day.
Sorry thatz just my 2 cents....
I saw this on the WSJ ticker in Times Square. Freaky.
This is going to get thrown out in appellate. One side effect of this is that any news outlet (hell, anyone) would have to check with the company that they're reporting about every time they might possibly reveal something that's a trade secret. Undue burden, blah blah blah. Prior restraint, blah blah blah.
Cranky judge + angry Apple = bad ruling
Engadget is a great news site. It doesn't post inside, NDA protected information. There's a huge difference. I'm a Mac user about to buy more, and I check out those rumor sites on occasion, but half the time I can't believe the info they get (and get wrong). They choose to run that kind of operation. Or chose. Who really, truly cares?
I absolutely agree with the judge. Freedom of press should not be used to exploit the privacy or intellectual property of the privileged individual. And yes the sites are also responsible for the leaked info. If you induce someone to commit a crime or they commit the crime for your benefit, you should also be held liable. Put yourself in Apple’s shoes. You are busy working on a big idea, someone cashes in on leaking the info plus another company beats you to market on the same product you were working on. Even worse they patent the technology all because they had the greater financial muscle.
As much as I would like to see a Paris Hilton up-skirt or Sony’s project lineup we need to learn to respect the privacy and intellectual property of others. Contrary to what most people seem to believe, we have no right to those pictures or the leaked content. Just be patient and wait for that voluntary photo-up or product announcement.
No one is publishing the internals of Apple's products. They're simply reporting on their existence.
And your example about a competitor patenting anything from a leaked news story is blindingly stupid.
im screwed
Can I second the blinding stupidity? How in the hell is announcing the basic nature of an upcoming product, a incredibly common occurence on sites like this, revealing a "trade secret". It is beyond ridiculus, and shows what Apple really thinks of its customers. You are nothing but wallets to them, and if you do anything that they remotely view as impeding on their divine sovereignty, they will squash you like the ants they view you as.
Finally "the" Apple shows its true color, and it ain't green.
Gotta love it!
Let this be a wake up call to all of those Apple-heads out there who think Apple can do no wrong: well, we have news for you: Apple can do wrong.
Apple still puts out some pretty great products, but this shows that Apple is no savior, no messiah, no saint, in the corporate world. Apple is out for their own profit first and foremost, and in this regard is no different from Microsoft.
That doesn't necessarily make them evil, but it doesn't make them some form of corporate utopia either.
Apple has always been about control...as a corporation Apple is a control freak.
They always have been...that's why Apple wouldn't follow Bill Gates advice, of all people, and license their OS to other manufacturers during the 80's...hence, dooming them to a small niche market.
Apple may be a benign dictator most of the time, and may be a creative dictator, but it nevertheless is a dictator.
It actually is good that Apple is not the dominant seller of PCs, for then one company would control both the hardware and the software...it would be monopoly hell.
I guess that is my whole point from my earlier post. What harm is done in releasing rumors about what is coming next. There is always the argument that it is just a case of corporate leaks and they do not want their competitors doing what they are planning.
But lets not forget Apple is the only producer of Macintosh anything(less the HP iPod). They have always been an innovator Apple is still the only person pushing a 30" Computer monitor (not for long), the first ones with bluetooth 2.0 labtops etc.
Apple has a certain segment of the market, graphics people, video editing, music, etc.. and they are now trying to break into the more average computer user world alas the Mac Mini. More power to em but they need not foget what has made them stay afloat over the years it is the market they already had the so called "Mac Cult/faithful".......
Apple please don't forget where ya came from. I know the iPod has been a great success and I think it is only starting for Apple but I think these lawsuits are just a waste of time for the organization and their time should be consentrated towards the future looking for the next iPod
At least this kind of law suits put food on the table of those poor lawyers familys table. Apple should just have there own iLaw suite, that can fix any problems that may arise.
I guess that is my whole point from my earlier post. What harm is done in releasing rumors about what is coming next. There is always the argument that it is just a case of corporate leaks and they do not want their competitors doing what they are planning.
But lets not forget Apple is the only producer of Macintosh anything(less the HP iPod). They have always been an innovator Apple is still the only person pushing a 30" Computer monitor (not for long), the first ones with bluetooth 2.0 labtops etc.
Apple has a certain segment of the market, graphics people, video editing, music, etc.. and they are now trying to break into the more average computer user world alas the Mac Mini. More power to em but they need not foget what has made them stay afloat over the years it is the market they already had the so called "Mac Cult/faithful".......
Apple please don't forget where ya came from. I know the iPod has been a great success and I think it is only starting for Apple but I think these lawsuits are just a waste of time for the organization and their time should be consentrated towards the future looking for the next iPod
Novak gets away with leaking the identity of a secret service agent and manages to keep his source secret, but rumor sites get thrown the book at them for publishing some mundane Apple "trade secret"? Talk about a two-speed justice system. Welcome to W's Amerika.
Rumor sites can post all the rumors they want; they just shouldn't be indicating that it is based on protected information or trade secrets. Engadget publishes all sorts of rumors without resorting telling us its from some internal document that they aren't supposed to see. And even most of TS stories do not indicate that they are based on trade secrets.
That's all that Apple is saying. BTW, Apple will win on appeal and at the Supreme Court on this particular point if it gets that far. The other case against TS is much more difficult to prove and Apple may lose (but then I don't have as much info as Apple does).
TS is not an Apple fan. They are a corporate entity out to make a profit by getting paid ads based on the number of hits they have by sometimes publishing trade secrets. You don't think Nick does this due to his love of Apple or Apple fans, now do you? He has defied Apple's warnings on several occasions - if he was an Apple fanatic, he would do what was best for Apple.
Paul Thurrott, who is a real MS fan, just pulled an article that claimed it was based on internal MS documents, at the request of MS. That's what a fanboy would do.
I think you're confusing "fanboy" with "toady".
I'm not too upset over this because this ruling will be overturned. The judge's vision of what passes for public interest is so constipated that no appeals court will uphold it. The only "news" worthy of protection is that which can be published on the front page of the New York Times? Thank you Mr. Judge for deciding for the rest of us what is fit to read. The judge's notion that stories about the future strategy and products of a large publicly traded company is not of sufficient "public interest" is laughable. I guess the Wall Street Journal should cease publication immediately. This judge will be overturned.
I think a lot of people here are confusing issues.
Someone breached a NDA and Apple is asking who.
Someone has broken the law and Apple is asking who.
If I killed someone and reported it to a newspaper, the newpaper would turn me in.
I seriously doubt this will be over-turned.
The employee or employees who provided this information have broken the law (by voilating the terms of their employment contract and NDA) and leaked confidential information. Apple wants to go after those individuals not the fan sites. But those fan sites are essentially "haboring" the criminals. I have seen posts asking what harm is it to Apple to post information like this. Simple, Apples designs are what makes the Apple brand stand out. It is no rare coincedience that Apples products are mimic'd months or sometimes weeks after they come out. By releasing confidential information as the employee(s) did, they potentially have cost Apple large amounts of revenue and those employees could potentially sued for damages.
What Apple has done is no different than any designer or company would have done or should be doing. All designs should be protected as much as possible in a market that spawns copy-cats over night.
-ex product designer
Completely agree w the last 3 posters. All the news stories about this topic make it sound like Apple is suing the web sites for POSTING the information. No, that is not the case. Apple asked those sites "who gave you this information," those sites refused, so now Apple is suing to get that information. This is not about freedom of the press, the press can still write what they want (and Apple cannot stop anyone from writing it), but, if laws have been violated, Apple (or anyone) should have the right to find out who violated it.
Love it when those who don't understand the story say things like "Apple has every right to take steps to protect their information" (see San Jose Mercury News today) and then deny Apple the #1 most effective step: Fear. I'd keep my mouth shut if I knew I would lose my job for divulging that which I wasn't supposed to.
From the wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_secret
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The "quality of confidence" highlights the fact that trade secrets are a legal concept. With sufficient effort or through illegal acts (such as break and enter), competitors can usually obtain trade secrets. However, so long as the owner of the trade secret demonstrates that reasonable efforts have been made to keep the information confidential, the information remains a trade secret and is legally protected as such. Conversely, trade secret owners who do not demonstrate reasonable effort at protecting confidential information, risk losing the trade secret, even if the information is obtained by competitors illegally. It is for this reason that trade secret owners shred documents and do not simply recycle them. Presumably an industrious competitor could piece together the shredded documents again. Legally the trade secret remains a trade secret because shredding the document is considered to have kept the quality of confidence of the information.
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What this might imply is that Apple is going after the trade secret leakers not because of the information that was leaked. They're going after them to demonstrate that it is indeed attempting to keep trade secrets secret, so as to keep trade secret protection on other secrets it may have.
Apple's making a point to its staff: don't leak stuff unless you're told to.
Apple's also making another point: we can find you. It's amazing that in this day and age people still aren't using remailers et al.
I agree with the decision. There is a serious difference between what the public is interested in and "the public interest". The decision is very narrow and well crafted. It will not be overturned on appeal.Apple will get the e-mails, and fire the employee who has been doing the leaking.
I have always loved rumor sites and eagerly waited for the next tidbit. But as I have said before, the world has changed a great deal since Mac rumor sites started 10 years ago.These days Apple in facing fierce cut throat competition and the Chinese or Koreans can gain important information from trade secrets being leaked.
This is serious stuff folks and as someone stated, Nick over at TS is making profit based upon the traffic leaked information brings to his site. I think he has materially harmed Apple for his own profit.
Steve Jobs is a serious grown up guy. He's not pursuing these matters on the basis of false pride or ego. The stakes are very high for Apple.
As for the point of no9. Over at daring fireball, it was correctly pointed out, we're not in love with Apple or Steve...it's the Macintosh we love!
Wouldn't it make more sense to read sites like Engadget to find out exactly what people think BEFORE you release your product? I know companies want to keep everything secret and whatever, but we live in an age now where almost nothing is secret for long.
When something does get leaked, and it will get leaked, Apple or whoever should take full advantage af the opinions of first adapters like us. It will help them make a better product and keep us nice an happy.
sorry guys but if someone in my company decides to leak a trade secret to the media, it will be suicidal to look the other way. First, I might lose the protection afforded me under "trade secret agreement". Also, I have to demonstrate to all my employees that it will not be tolerated. Better now, than wait till a really huge product is breached that can sink my company. Give Apple a break, every employee in a tech company signs the NDA agreement. When that is breached you are left no choice but to address it or it becomes a joke.
Sony is gonna buy apple anyway.... so who cares. Sonapple. HAaaaaaaa.....
How do they know an NDA (which are generally of questionable legality, anyway) was broken?
They don't know who leaked it.
This is just an expensive fishing expedition for Apple.
What a bunch of trolls! (Mostly anyway)
What harm is there in posting Apple product info in advance of release? Case in point: Super Shuffle. I seriously can't believe how clueless the trolls have been when such an apropos example appeared a day earlier!
Imagine the damage that could have been done had a rumor site posted Apple internal documents (which is what Powerpage.org essentially did) completely detailing the iPod shuffle 3 months before its release. A Taiwanese company could have produced it in advance of the actual Apple release, at the very least probably killing any chance of Apple's marketing plan from working.
It's exactly as the judge says: "An interested public is not the same as the public interest." Just because you have an insatiable desire to hear about Apple products in advance of their release doesn't give these websites the right to protect their sources under the guise of journalistic protection of sources.
Apple is stupid to go after these bloggers. All of these leaks, rumors, etc. just increase interest in Apple products and indeed fuel the cult of Apple.
Apple is shooting itself in its own foot: it gets bad PR, and if successful, chokes off a source of free publicity for itself.
And for all of the Apple defenders out there, ask yourself this: if Microsoft were doing the same thing as Apple is in this case, wouldn't you be criticizing them?
This is just my opinion. If you think i'm stupid for it i really don't care.
I was under the impression that this trade secret case was over the firewire box for wannabe audio engineers.... Well... No one released specs even and the general idea isn't new. Other people do actually do similar things, if i were the person being sued/subpoenaed/whatever i'd be making sure i let people know this.
Apple are a pack of idiots for doing this. This step achieves the following.
a) confirms the item, destroying the point of the whole case
b) makes a lot of people see them in a lesser manner
c) makes rumor sites seriously think about the free publicity they give to apple.
d) costs a bucket and gains very little.
e) confounds the problem about what exactly constitutes a "trade secret"... Its a box with firewire and microphone leads for gods sake. Not a piece of technological mastery. Most of the interface will probably be software anyway.
Now you can argue that this is about hunting down one employee but if your going to argue that then i honestly don't agree with you either. In that case you would look on a much smaller scale within the company first. They *wouldn't* have all their employees in the loop on this one so just talk to the ones that signed an NDA first.
I seriously think this was a bad move by apple (who just seems to have a fetish for digital witch hunts) though and a stupid decision by a judge who should be beaten about the head with a frying pan. Repeatedly.
Just my 2 cents.