More companies join HD-DVD/Blu-ray peace talks
posted Apr 22nd 2005 11:41AM
Giving us slightly more hope that we're actually going to pull back from the abyss that would be a next-gen DVD
format war, more manufacturers are joining Sony and Toshiba's peace talks over how to fuse
Blu-ray and
HD-DVD into a single standard. Now
that fellow heavyweights Matsushita and Philips are in there it sounds like Sony and Toshiba are finally getting past
all the fronting and posturing and starting to hammer out the serious details of a unified format, and are even
beginning to brief the big movie studios about the details of a possible new format. There are a lot of reasons why
things might not work (besides all the ego stuff, there are technical reasons for why
combining Blu-ray and HD-DVD would prove difficult), but we can't
help but be optimistic, you know? Everyone forgets that back in 1995 there were two competing formats for the original
DVD, but Sony and Toshiba managed sort things out back then, so it's not like they've never figured out how to
compromise before (though you'd think they would have learned from the past).
Peace on earth and a single High Density DVD format for all. Watch and they'll end up compromising and taking the worst of both sides (HD-DVDs lower density and poor roadmap for higher densities with BlueRays higher cost) and screw the market over good.
I admit I'm a Sony hater, but BlueRay even with initial higher costs is the better standard (assuming the scratch resistant coating for the thinner plastic surface is up to power.)
TAZ
No way man! UMD's are the way of the future !
JK :)
I wonder how much compromise there really can be. From a business standpoint they can do whatever they want to of course, but with the technology they have only so many options. Are these companies really going to scrap all the R+D they put into these disparate technologies ? Because even though I argue against some people on this point, my opossing constituants are right that these two different formats are incompatible on a VERY basic level. So much so that I (not being an engineer, Laser scientist) don't think they have very much leeway to merge the two technologies.
My guess would be that they're talking mainly business, not technology. Alternately trying to convice the other side to give in and/or discussing potential licensing agreements for dual format players, dual format discs (either by using multiple layers or both sides of the disc), divying up market target areas (movies vs data vs ROM vs RW...), region assignments, what to order for lunch, etc. etc...trying to figure out how they can both turn a profit at this point without sacrificing the work they've already done.
I doubt these talks will go anywhere, though they might I suppose. But I gotta say, as DRM happy as Sony is I don't think I'd like them to be in charge of the next gen format. I've said it before and I'll say it again...anybody seen a UMD burner lately ? A PC compatible UMD reader (though it's probably only a matter of time before the PSP is hacked into just such a device)? I haven't either...and that has pretty effectively put the Ki-bosh on the piracy of UMD's. If Blu-ray does win out, why would sony give us blu-ray burners when that would open the flood gates to pirate next gen movies and PS3 games when they could just refuse to bring them to market and totally preclude it (just like they did with the UMD)...leaving us with no way to back up HD movies and stuck with 8.5GB DVD data discs.
Maybe Sony's new administration is going to be more magnanimous than that...I kinda doubt it though...
If history teaches us anything than if this war did take place and movies were released on both formats then what will happen is the market would dictate. Its just like betamax vs vhs. Even though betamax was better quality it couldn't be manufactured as cheap as vhs and people want cheap not high quality. But this is a different situation, the point of this is high quality, which is a niche market. DVD's won't go away for a long long time. Did cd's go away when SACD came out - nope, and how many people own a SACD player - not me.
In a quality battle people are willing to spend more money and they want the highest quality - like SACD - so, only on the fact that blu-ray has more space = lower compression = winner.
But if they want to replace dvd then hd-dvd = cheaper = winner.
So Rather than have this war where when clear markets are considered they are trying to combine and compromise at this meeting. For codecs, Mpeg 2 is a given anyway, so all they can do is either keep or leave h.264 and wmv9. and the disc format file structure. The disc manufacturing processes are incompatible and the drive systems barely have anything in common
All I want to know is what can they compromise on - Nothing I can see.
One last thing, the process of making a blue ray disc is enourmous in comparison to a hd-dvd, both are something like less than a dollar, so would the losses be huge accross the market - nope, they wil charge us more for a high def disc than a dvd anyway, so for the consumer its a lose lose lose and lose some more situation.
Nothing's changed. Remember Beta and VHS?
For all the hate I have for Sony, I had also wished that Blu-ray would ouright destroy HD-DVD. There's no advantages at all for HD-DVD from a consumer standpoint. All the pricing arguments was for the disc production side, but with all the electronics manufacturers behind Blu-ray, prices would go down much faster for Blu-ray due to competition.
#2, Blu-ray burners already exist on the market in Japan. The technology was built for burning first and ROM later. This is NOT like Betamax vs VHS or any previous Sony format because virtually all the big electronics manufacturers are behind Blu-Ray which ensures that they won't go too far down the DRM/proprietary route. Sony's previous failed efforts were mostly only themselves pushing a format.
From almost any standoint, one would hope that the market would be allowed to decide. Advanteges for HD-DVD are slim at best, and certainly offers very little in terms of long-term viability.
Blu-ray has the distinct advantage here - but it is incomprehensible that Sony (and Philips) would blink on this so fast...and the wise word on the street is that this deal is already done.
Both formats would do well to remember that they initially will still have to compete against existing DVD; and then later against broadband and hard drives. The smoke screen of a Blue Laser war seems to imply that either dominant format will not ever have to compete against anything else. The sad fact is that which ever Blue Laser format prevails, competition will be stiff with massive flash type products, mini-HDDs, broadband and perhaps even some forms of holographic media.
To:Ran #5
Yep, I've seen the console Blu-Ray recorders. Dynamism...Japan-Direct...etc...
I'll admit though I haven't checked them out well enough to know, are they geared for direct disc to disc copying ? Is there copy protection hardware/software built in ? What is it designed to record ? HDTV ? Please don't get my tone wrong, I'm asking quite genuinely...
I was thinking more along the lines of computer based drives/burners. Because without that, Blu-ray is kinda starting to look like another Minidisc. Not that there's anything wrong with minidisc...but it's pretty limited in what it can do, when it has the potential to be so much more.
Can I back up my hard drive with those console based blu-ray recorders ? Can I dupe a PS3 game for backup purposes ?
Again...no flipancy here...I just don't see these things being specifcally offered and I would be worried that if Sony can basically 'sell' Blu-ray to the world WITHOUT offering those things at the outset they may never bother to offer them at all, especially considering the can of piracy they'd be opening up.
My impression of the Blu-Ray recorders that are out thus far is that they are mainly aimed at recording High def tv from a digital provider. Which again is fine, but I'm mainly concerned with disc duping and data disc usage not time-shifting American Idol in 'glorious technicolor' as it were :)
Beta vs VHS blah blah. How many times must we hear this decades old tired example? For the record Sony charged a licensing fee for Beta while JVC freely distributed the licence for VHS to other makers.
These days the big issue is copy-protection - Sony being a large holder of copyrighted material tends towards the encrypted, locked down formats. Chinese makers want to sell a lot of units and don't give a rats' ass about copyright issues.
For the 'next' format to suceed, the Studio's will decide since they hold the power to release onto a format. Chicken and egg type of thing. It seems that DVD player sales really got going once Blockbuster etc dumped VHS.
I just hope the next "HD" (not) version of video distribution is not as compressed as the current "HD" (not) version of digital TV is today.
Stuart
Oddmanout,
You are missing some basic facts there. They are certainly targeting PC data storage in addition to HD content, especially with the space advantage. Dell/HP/Apple/Samsung/Benq have all already pledged to bring out burners for the PC within the next year. Some writers were shown *working* at a few trade shows this year. Even if all the movie companies had signed on to HD-DVD, Blu-ray would likely still have survived in some form on PC support alone.
The interesting thing to note here is that most of the HD-DVD drives slated for release both as a standalone and on the PC are ROM drives, and NOT writers, which is the opposite of Blu-ray. If encryption/DRM/functionality is your main concern, HD-DVD is certainly not going to be a better alternative considering the only people that will be using ROM discs is movie companies. HD-DVD hasn't even shown off a working writer yet, either as a standalone or on PC. If anything, it looks to me like HD-DVD is _already_ bending over backwards and taking it up the ass from Hollywood.
Encryption for movies exist for both formats, otherwise Hollywood would never even look at the standards. It's not like copying PS2 games and DVD movies are sanctioned (did you forget about modding and CSS?).
The standalone Blu-ray recorders currently on the market function like VCRs for HD stuff (plus rewritability), but thats more due to the fact that this will remain a niche for a few years until the price comes down. There's no encryption other than the ones already in the HD transport stream, but that's not due to the disc format itself.
To: Ran
"You are missing some basic facts there."
Aparently so. Specifically...
" Dell/HP/Apple/Samsung/Benq have all already pledged to bring out burners for the PC within the next year"
"HD-DVD hasn't even shown off a working writer yet, either as a standalone or on PC. If anything, it looks to me like HD-DVD is _already_ bending over backwards and taking it up the ass from Hollywood."
I was not aware of either of these things (and could prorbaly have done just fine without images of NEC and Toshiba execs 'taking it up the ass' in Hollywood running around in my head). But it certainly is encouraging on the Blu-ray front. Definately makes the initial cost disparity seem a little more equitable. Not that I put too much stock in 'pledges'. Deals fall through and companies lie. I have little choice but to take their (well..at this point really, *your*) word, but I still find it surprising that Sony would the piracy that they so staunchly oppose. Mind you, I'm not complaining...
As for encryption...bah! that's what 'DVD John' and his ilk are for. So long as the hardware exists, someone will create and release the required software.
The Blu-ray recordings currently on teh market cost thousands of dollars and they can't even read each other's discs LMAO.