DVD format war peace talks: game on!

Okay, just yesterday things weren't looking so hot for the HD-DVD/Blu-ray peace process, which now has turned into some strange hybrid of international arbitration, heated tennis championship and summer camp deathmatch. The latest is that the presidents of Sony, Toshiba and Matsushita are gonna sit down to try and make nice in order to break the stalemate. That meeting could take place as early as this week, although it requires coordinating the schedules of all three head honchos — considering we have a tough enough time getting all of our slacker friends in the same room for a nice wine and cheese, we can only imagine the difficulties involved in getting this meeting off the ground. Consumers, cross your fingers.

[Justin @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

I just don't see this happening.

what...are they going to magically just combine the two formats to work together? Aren't they different technologies altogether?

I will put 1 dollar on a bet that they don't combine together!

[Jazzay @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

I dont think they're making a hybrid, its a buisness meeting on which technology will make the most money for the both of them

[jayarr_superstar @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

also hasnt sony just announced that is will be running blu-ray disks on its new PS3? i dont think sony will be giving up thier format as quickly as the others will :D

[jayarr_superstar @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

also hasnt sony just announced that is will be running blu-ray disks on its new PS3? i dont think sony will be giving up thier format as quickly as the others will :D

[Finishing.Law.School @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

How can they not see how stupid these dual formats are? It really does kill it for consumers as we are forced to deal with this crap in the end.

[OddManOut @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

I will laugh uproriously if VMD becomes the defacto next gen standard because the Sony + Toshiba et al can't get their collective act together...

[Frank Palazzi @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

The issue is not DVD formats. What all these companies want is U.S. consumers to buy new HDTV sets. Consumer acceptance is the only thing holding HDTV back. Bickering over high def disc formats will keep people waiting vs. buying. They need to sell more $2000 TVs and if that means coming to terms on format, watch how quickly that will happen when all parties are motivated.

[MGerlach310 @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

I think it would be smart for them to do so.

I think it owuld be possible, to have a format that is combined, that can read/be read by the media/drives that exist today.

I hope it is soon, for a possibility for the Xbox 360 to upgrade to HD-DVD (or whatever format it is).

[Klaus @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

PS3 is a good argument for Sony in these talks. They will deploy 15 Million HD players (PS3s) in 2006.

[Dave B. @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

I'll say this every time. I'm an early adopter but will NOT buy until there is only one next-gen DVD format!

[Rudy Rodriguez @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

Blue-Ray does hold more info then HD-DVD. Its like double. So I'm voting for Blue-Ray. Also, I think its Blue-Ray that will be used with the PS3. Another plus for Blue-Ray.

[Hunter @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

LoL it reminds me of the bi lateral talks with america and North Korea... case in point.. it may lead to nowhere, and each opposing side being stubborn as a mule to thump on their chest to claim that they're the ones who are right in the matter. Either case, blu ray or hd dvd , it's going to be a while till we see a uniformed standard.

[n00bmaster @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

Has anyone actually figured out what the psp uses for a format. I think its just mini blu ray.

[janiero @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

it seems like UMD is more like mini-dvd: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Media_Disc

[Taury @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

Unless I'm mistaken, there is no way that Sony would have released a blue ray drive so "secretly". I believe that it is just a proprietary mini-DVD (or maybe a regular one?).

[Petrica @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

What all these companies want is U.S. consumers to buy new HDTV sets. Consumer acceptance is the only thing holding HDTV back. Bickering over high def disc formats will keep people waiting vs. buying. They need to sell more $2000 TVs and if that means coming to terms on format, watch how quickly that will happen when all parties are motivated.

[MooseBlaster @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

The UMD is based off Hi-MD format (the new MiniDisc format that holds about a gig and a bit of stuff on it.

It's basically a Data-MiniDisc, what people have been asking for for donkeys, only for Sony to stick it in a non-recordable device.

Damn you! And no, I'm not buying a PSP because it's ass-rapingly expensive for what you get.

[John Jones @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

The only advantage with HD-DVD is the name.
And that is a big marketing advantage.

[MegaZone @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

HD-DVD and Blu-ray (NOT Blue-Ray) have a lot in common. They use the same lasers and the same codecs. The difference is the disc structure. HD-DVD is like DVD - two .6mm substrates back-to-back. BD is a 1.1mm substrate with a .1mm optical coating. (CD was a .1mm backing with a 1.1mm coating. All 3 are 1.2mm thick.) The plastic used in BD is also better optically. The combination of the thinner coating and better materials allows them to pack the bits tighter - hence 25GB per layer. (Actually BD allows 23, 25, or 27GB on one layer - but is seems 25GB is the figure most commonly used.) HD-DVD is 15GB per layer on dual-layer, or 20GB on a single layer. BD can stack many 25GB layers - Sony has show a 4 layer, 100GB disc they say could be commercialized in a couple of years, and an 8-layer, 200GB disc in their labs. Don't hold your breath for HD-DVD to do that.

HD-DVDs only real advantage is that it can be produced on DVD presses with minor changes. DVD's cost $.03 per disc, HD-DVD is expected to cost $.035 per disc, and BD $.05 per disc - PLUS the investment in new presses.

But there is a big gap between 30GB and 50GB, and it will make a difference for compression on long running films, as well as on extras, etc.

So Toshiba recently announced a 3-layer, 45GB HD-DVD. Great, right? Well, except that it can't be produced on DVD presses because it has a new structure. So there does the big advantage over BD. If you're going to get new presses, or do major upgrades to what you have, you may as well press BD.

As a consumer, if you really look at the systems, you want BD. It is technologically superior and has a lot of growth potential. HD-DVD is basically pushing DVD tech to the limits, there is very little headroom left.

If there is a war it will be bad for everyone - but in the end I'd bet on BD. First of all - PlayStation 3. That will put BD into MILLIONS of homes for 'free' - the PS2 was shown to give DVD a big boost, the PS3 will do the same for BD.

On top of that Dell, HP, and Apple are all committed to BD on their computers - that's the world's 2 largest PC vendors, and the whole Mac market, of course. While HD-DVD has Toshiba, NEC, and Sanyo - BD has Sony, Pioneer, Matsushita (Panasonic), LG Electronics, Philips, Samsung, and more - basically every other player in the industry.

On the content side - Sony own's Columbia/Tristar, Sony Pictures, and MGM. Fox and Disney have also backed BD. Warner and Universal have supported HD-DVD. (No surprise for Warner - Time-Warner has IP in DVD, and will probably get money if HD-DVD is adopted since it is based on DVD. Remember Warner used to push an 'HD' solution that was just red-laser DVD with a new codec.)

HD-DVD is just massively out-matched if this becomes a war. There will be tons of BD component systems and PC drives, against a few units from Toshiba and NEC. HD-DVD would show up in Toshiba and NEC PCs, but that's nothing compared to Dell, HP, and Apple - plus drives from Pioneer, LG, etc, for the PC market.

I think Toshiba's recent 45GB announcement and hard-ball style is just an ploy to get a better settlement. They want more of their IP involved in the final spec, so it may be the BD physical disc with Toshiba's copy protection, etc. Merge the specs, call the finall thing HD-DVD for the marketing buzz to capitalize on both HD and DVD, and call it a day.

[Hessam @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

nicely put MegaZone

[Matt Baron @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

They had better make quick so they can accomplish this before the release of the PS3. Also it would make for a nice xbox 360 upgrade to give microsoft a little more umph in light of the news about the PS3 supercomputer.

[blo ray @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

If Blu Ray wins is it going to be as expensive as memory sticks and mini disks? Also we need better disk catalogging software for when I put 50 divx movies on 1 blu ray disk. I use a free program called cathy right now I didn't like visual cd. I put numbered hub labels on my dvd's with 6 movies on them.

[Ian @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

"I think Toshiba's recent 45GB announcement and hard-ball style is just an ploy to get a better settlement. They want more of their IP involved in the final spec, so it may be the BD physical disc with Toshiba's copy protection, etc. Merge the specs, call the finall thing HD-DVD for the marketing buzz to capitalize on both HD and DVD, and call it a day."

Sounds about right. Unfortunately.

I hate Sony with their proprietary technology, charging an arm and a leg compared to other comparable technologies. I really hope Sony doesn't win.

[Pete @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

Okay, here is the deal. Sony is supporting the Blu-Ray format. Sony's game systems all have the common feature, taking a risk on something new (as pointed out by Ken K. at the Sony E3 Conference). They took a risk with Playstation with a game that plays cds rather than the popular cartridge format. The PS2 risk with DVD's when their players used to cost no less than $500. The PSP with the UMD (although i think you could jack a gamecube game onto there with that plastic holding cell). Now the PS3 will introduce Blu-Ray to the world better than anything has already.

Blu-Ray is created by the use of a blue/violet like laser, which burns at a slower wavelength, producing more space. This is the reason that blu-ray can have a single disc be 6 times the space of a dvd under the same circumstances.

In reference to the comment above about 8 gigs being enough for you, well if you have movies on your computer chewing up an 80 gig drive, im sure a 50 gig blu-ray wouldn't hurt. Also, if a game uses blu-ray to it's advantage, they won't be LIMITED TO 8 GIGS of game creation space! Just think of how great the games will be when they have 6 times the space of a PS2 or XBOX game at their disposal for the next generation. I, for one, hope this merger can work. It will then benefit us in the end.

Pretty soon, we will see BD+R/RW, BD-R/RW formats becoming very common. Instead of shunning new technology, just embrace it.

[Pete @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

my fault, that post was for the section about problems between blu-ray and hd-dvd peace talks.

[MegaZone @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

"I hate Sony with their proprietary technology, charging an arm and a leg compared to other comparable technologies. I really hope Sony doesn't win."

Ian, you missed the point.

While Sony is the *prime* proponent of BD, it isn't 'Sony proprietary technology'. Control of Blu-ray belongs to the Blu-Ray Disc Association: http://www.blu-raydisc.com/

Which is extemely similar to DVD is controlled by the DVD Forum: http://www.dvdforum.com/forum.shtml Which is also where Toshiba took the HD-DVD spec for endorsement.

The intellectual property in BD is not all Sony - it is a combination of blue laser efforts from many of the association members. Pioneer was doing a lot of work in that area too, for example - they were one of the lead developers of DVD, and developed both DVD-R and DVD-RW. They're not going to just blindly take what Sony does. But the members of the association felt combining their efforts would be advantageous.

The problem is Toshiba & NEC had used different IP in their system, and decided to try to go it on their own, but in the end far more backers signed on to BD than HD-DVD, so it looks like a bad decision on their part. Now the BD spec is so far along it'd take a lot to redo it to use their IP - meaning if they combine they'll get less by way of royalties.

This is all about money in the end. A giant, corporate game of chicken - and the consumer is in the middle. If Toshiba & NEC had just agreed to work with, well, pretty much *everyone else*, we wouldn't be having this stand-off.

[MegaZone @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

I dug this up:

BD supporting companies: http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-13469/Index.html

HD-DVD supporting companies: http://www.hddvdprg.com/about/member.html

Note many companies are on both sides - for software companies, etc, they don't much care who wins. But look which one has the most big name backing in the HW world - BD, hands down.

[Petrica @ Dec 19th 2005 1:21AM]

It is just massively out-matched if this becomes a war. There will be tons of BD component systems and PC drives, against a few units from Toshiba and NEC. HD-DVD would show up in Toshiba and NEC PCs, but that's nothing compared to Dell, HP, and Apple - plus drives from Pioneer, LG, etc, for the PC market.