Nintendo Revolution to run DIY code?
posted May 19th 2005 11:30AM
There's a bit of interesting info buried inside the press release for the
Nintendo Revolution, that seems to
imply they might be giving DIY developers some freedom to run homebrew code: "Freedom of design: A dynamic development
architecture equally accommodates both big-budget, high-profile game 'masterpieces' as well as indie games conceived by
individual developers equipped with only a big idea." They make it a small point, and Nintendo sure hasn't been talking
up this aspect — but if there's any truth to it, this could be a fairly big move in the gaming console world, to start
with an intentionally open platform right off the bat (as opposed to waiting for all the brilliant hackers to
inevitably tear your console to shreds, anyway…).
[Via Boing Boing]
This is huge - consumers are going to love it for the cheap and free games and "open-source" synergy, developers are going to love it because if they can make a homebrew game that's a hit, they have a chance of getting some funding for a more polished version or otherwise breaking in to the video game world.
High-priced video games are wonderful, but there's a lot of innovation untapped in the console market. This could be just the thing to spark a real revolution.
I'm starting to love nintendo again. First the awesome console design with incredible backwards compatibility, then this? I know they're not competing power-wise, but I may just have to pick one up at launch just to say "thanks for being so much cooler than the other guys."
I'll tell you what - this'll be the Ace in Nintendo's sleeve if this turns out to be true.
"Big Business" be damned, Nintendo may not have as much household weight these days, but you can be sure this device is going to make its way to just as many homes as the other two.
This is what I've been hoping for for years but never thought that it would actually happen.
Making your own video games is just about the coolest thing there is.
If it's true, then it is truly a revolutionary console, power to the people!
This may or may not be big. Apparently not a lot of people remember the Yaraoze. Or the PS2 Linux Kit.
Sony has encouraged homebrew applications and games for a long time. The problem is nobody ever seems to want to take them up on the offer. I don't think a single decent game every came out of the Yaraoze project and I don't think any decent apps or games (for Linux or otherwise) came out of the PS2 thing.
It'll be cool if the Revolution is open from the beginning (it'll be even cooler if it's *really* open, i.e. region-free and DRM-free), but I'm not too convinced anybody's going to do anything much more compelling on it than port Debian. Which they'll do anyway, somehow.
(Now, I'm not against homebrew stuff or anything, and I run plenty of homebrew apps on my PC - I just am not sure it's really a huge thing for a game console.)
I do know about the Xbox Media Center thing (not the Media Center Extender, which is an official thing), but honestly, I don't know that something like that would be all that useful on this console.
A good move. Kinda sends a message "We'd like you to have what YOU want, not necessarily what we TELL YOU to want.".
As the comments on these and other boards seem to go, nostalgia is running pretty high in the video game world. While many gamers look to the imminent present and the near future, many of them also look back on the past of video gaming fondly. Decks don't last forever, and cartridges die almost as fast (not actually that fast, but inevitable). I think it's cool that nintendo seems to simply want to supply their consummers with video gaming 'fun'. In whatever form the CONSUMMER might want it. Games of the past, of the present, of the future, and games that might never be made unless consummers themselves make them...
I've never really like Nintendo's offerings, but this very client-centric approach is quite impressive IMHO...
:D Nintendo would kick some major ass for this. :d
Then there is the Microsoft-way, trying to make the Console impossible to MOD...
I think they'll let us develop NES, SNES and N64 games... they are much simpler systems. They could also let you host them so others could download them, through their same download system. Imagine plugging a keyboard into one of those usb ports, and coding away...
The reason nothing comes out of it is that modern games require too much time and money to create. Just look at the PC platform which is wide open. How many homebrew games have come out that look as good as a store bought game? None.
This is of value only to those learning the ropes before they try to get hired by a real developer house.
The only platforms that make sense for individual homebrewers are the old 8-bit ones where people aren't expecting Doom3.
Yes, perhaps you could plug a keyboard into one of those usb ports and just code away. If not that maybe they would be releasing software for coding games ranging all the way up to at least gamecube flexibility. Something tells me that depending on the programmer the ability to make a game up to par with an official Nintendo Revolution game is possible and maybe even what they want you to be able to do.
True we haven't seen any Nintendo Revolution games but listen people, Resident Evil 4 - Gamecube - need I say more? The NR games could very well be the sh!t.
"Then there is the Microsoft-way, trying to make the Console impossible to MOD..."
Yes, unlike $ony who encourages you to mod the ps2 (note the sarcasm)
"Then there is the Microsoft-way, trying to make the Console impossible to MOD..."
Yes, unlike $ony who encourages you to mod the ps2 (note the sarcasm)
I love Nintendo, and I recognized, questioned, and got excited about this tidbit 2 days ago...however I think it might be a rather canned interface...each game allowing you to create custom levels. If you have seen the Nintendo On video, then you would understand. Let's see if there are any HUGE FKN anouncements today! =]
Well maybe one day soon we'll finally see the release of Grand Theftendo!
http://www.grandtheftendo.com
How about this for a rumor, Nintendo has the Revolution at E3, playable, and they are only showing it to select people.
Here read for more:
http://www.nicholasroussos.com/2005/05/wild-eyed-rumors.html
I must admit I feel that Nintendo will indeed announce SOMETHING different and big today. I am in my bastard refreshing frenzy again though. I hate it. I wish I were psychic. When could I safely assume that there may be some news? After 6pm eastern time?? Sigh...
The reason why many homebrew games suck is that nobody eantw to put much effort in making games that will only run on a hacked console. It often requires a lot hacking to figure out how to get everything working, which isn't something many people want to do intheir spare time.
This could be quite successful if Nintendo actively supported game development.
They would need to support higher level (easier) languages, or maybe even include something like an SWF player so that all those free internet games can easily be converted to Revolution games.
Nintendo should also provide good quality standard programming, graphics, and media libraries, online tutorials, and an easy way to distribute and download the software.
I imagine that you would write and compile the code on your PC and then tranfer it to the console using a USB cable, SD card, or (wireless) network connection.
Didn't Nintendo have a problem long time ago with unlicensed, third-party games for the orginal Nintendo? Isn't this where the whole "Custer's Revenge" fiasco come from?
i agree. Sony DID make the homebrew stuff available, but it wasn't good - the kits were expensive and apps were difficult to share if you also didn't have the kit, or hadn't hacked your box.
If the NR allows anyone to download and run homebrew apps, right out of the box without buying any extras, then this is completely awesome. That would endear them to the hacker and dev community like none of the platforms before them. And it should be very easy to allow homebrew apps while still protecting the commercial releases. Why the status quo has been to lock down everything has always puzzled me.
This is awesome. If Nintendo could allow anybody to develop their own software for the Revolution and then allow that software to be downloaded through Nintendo's download service so anybody can easily get a copy of your software online it would be really really sweet.
But how will they prevent people from writing a virus?
did anyone see this: http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/nintendo/nintendo-revolution-homebrew-likelihood-not-good-104204.php
and this will bring alot more people since not just game swould be develop imagine all kinds of software and emulator running on it, maybe even Windows and OSX!!
Im going to stay on the fence with this one - Nintendo havent given out anything concrete about Revolutions at the moment, and this just sounds like another one of their publicity stunts to get more people to be interested in it - I imagine its more likely to be another idea being thrown around rather than a confirmed feature of their new console
Sony's Net Yaraoze cost $1000, and the only people who could play your games were other people who shelled out the $1000 for their own, or else illegally modded a console. If Nintendo makes creative tools standard out of the box, and allows sharing over their already announced downloadable content service, this will be totally different then anything anyone's ever tried.
Dare I say, *Revolutionary*? ;)
Also: Custer's Revenge was for the Atari 2600, though Nintendo did have some license headaches of their own, namely Bible games no one cared about, and Tengen's far superior version of Tetris.
Homebrew games are anathema for major console manufacturers. While you're playing a homebrew game, you're not playing something that they got a $20 - $25 royalty fee out of. And you're playing it on hardware that, in all likelihood, they lost money on selling it to you. Also, once homebrew code can touch the system, all hopes of any sort of copyright protection for any other thing used in the system goes out the window.
Quote "and this just sounds like another one of their publicity stunts to get more people to be interested in it"
I don't think thats fair. Nintendo never were ones for publicity stunts and I would go as far as to say that the always undersell their products and do not normally get involved in the BS wars like Sony and MS.
"This may or may not be big. Apparently not a lot of people remember the Yaraoze. Or the PS2 Linux Kit."
Some of us do. A friend of mine bought the kit. Barrier to entry on distributing a game on the Yaraoze was so bloody high that it was ,rightly so, thought of as a hobbyist device.
First off the thing ran for a cool $700 when it got it.
Secondly anything created on the Yaraoze only ran on another Yaraoze.
And third they only made something like 50,000 of these things.
A small handful of clubs sprung up around them and such but frankly the whole proprietary nature of the thing killed the concept. Sony and proprietary. Say it aint so! Seriously though Sony dipped a toe in the water. They hardly took a swim. Hopefully Nintendo is doing a half twist jack knife off the high board.
Dustin has a point. I still think it could be pulled off though with the right restrictions. I don't mean huge restrictions either. Just your basic don't use copyrighted material in your games restrictions. All original content only, no fan-based etc... Besides they would filter submissions I'm sure.
Btw,
You guys remember the Nintendo On headset thing? Here's another video that supposedly came from E3. I don't know, I found it from a comment some dude just made a few minutes ago.
27. Posted May 19, 2005, 9:56 AM ET by Dude McDude
http://www.gamerah.com/media/e3/Rev-On-E3.wmv
I wonder what the chances are on this vid. Any comments anyone else?
This is not Nintendo throwing open the platform to anyone who cares to try, this is Nintendo desparate for third party developers they don't have to bribe.
Anyone with a decent memory should recall they trotted out the exact same happy talk when the GameCube was announced. Indie developers stayed away in droves and instead went to platforms with almost no cost of entry (PC, Flash, Shockwave, Java) and then used those to get capital backing to do work on the machine with the big numbers on its side, PS2, or the machine they essentially already knew how to program, Xbox. Developers are going to go where they can make a living regardless of whether it's more difficult to program or dearer to their inner child.
I can tell nintendo are going to announce something big today... i reckon the revolution will open out and have a pair of goggles and 2 spheres that you'll hold in either hand.. one sphere controlling up and down movement and the other left and right. all 3, the goggles and the 2 spheres will have proximity radar so that sphere 1 controls the x-axis sphere 2 the y-axis and the goggles for the z-axis...when you operate it you would look like a robot and virtual reality and robotics are closely related in japan far more than in the west. that nintendoON video was blatantly true... how else could you access the source code for the mario castle scene, i admit the end was a bit lame but that was probably to make people suspiscious about its validity. Ultimately the release date for revolution is mid 2006, about the same as ps3. if the ps3 already has working trailers and demos it seems pretty much definite that nintendo will have at least trailers if not actual gameplay footage... only a few more hours...can you imagine if miyamoto and iwata were just like standing there when it starts with some funky robo soundtrack playing multiplayer metroid in the way I said before...
a few things -
there are many ways this could work out, both on the VR and the homebrew fronts. it could be a simple VR interface - hell even being immersed in majora's mask with n64 graphics would rule....
total content creation or building virtual worlds or simply modding worlds from games.
it might not be like making an entire game, it might be much simpler...but even making my own virtual home in a town in hyrule would RULE.
in terms of making your own games, it's not that it couldn't be good for the company. the business model just isn't implemented. maybe you make a game, upload it, and they charge a download fee for the game you made....
like a stock photo site or something... they could charge a dollar and give you a nything from 10 cents to 50 cents. they could charge 10 bucks and give you 5 or less. they could make money from their fans and with a few disclaimers protect themselves from any 'virus' like apps people make.
the community would also be a self protecting environment... you download something that is bad, and you post about it and other people will stay away from it...
nintendo could very well hit the nail on the head. make money off peripherals (there are already MANY crazy arcade peripherals from sword handles that put you in a ninja battle to pads and punching bags to get violent on, and lets not forget dance games, musical games, etc.) , make money off of gamers making and distributing their own creations, and handpick the best of the best to make 'real' games.
ultimately, it could be profitable and also a great way to showcase and find talent, creativity, and innovation.
Ok first allow me to say to people like #10 up there, don't make blind statements like that. Honestly look before you open your mouth and say things like that. I've seen some games that are better big budget games. The only reason you can tell the difference is because big budget games put their stuff in your face as opposed to you haveing to look for it.
Next. Reason why this can be true. It makes perfectly good sense. Nintendo wanted to do something that could be easily copied by any other company. So they wanted to wait until everyone else said what they were doing. Bam this seems like the perfect trump card.
No... Think not? Think about this. Why do people still buy Dreamcast? I doubt it's cause you can get the games really cheap now. It's because there still is an active homebrewing community. I know tons of people who modded their xbox just so they can do things Microsoft didn't orignally intend for you to do.
Still not convinced? Well allow me to add this. From a Nintendo stand point. Anyone can create games for it. That doesn't mean you just burn a disc and go. That could mean you drop it on the SD card or whatever and pop it in. In an interface like the DS has you select to run it from the flash card or whatever.
Oh... Think also about this. Another difference between this and homebrewed PC stuff... you have a set box. All things work across the board. You write directly for the hardware. Everythign that makes Consoles great that work agianst the PC. And an open license plus wide market?
All nintendo would have to do is slap together(I use slap together loosly) an interface or set up a community for the homebrewed stuff and have everything regulated.
Too much trouble? Hmmm. Think about this. What's more work? Knowing what everyone is doing with your hardware. Or having to watch over carefully what everyone is doing with your hardware.
With this setup. What's the reason you would want to have a modchip? Only to play illegal copies of a game now.(Provided Nintendo wouldn't use region encoding for anything besides the DVD playback) That makes thier work so much easier in my opinion.
Could be wrong in this one. But... I think there is only one way to interpret what Nintendo said. Saying Single person Development groups wouldn't make sense at all, cause it'll end up being the same things as it is now. A closed circuit to only people with money. What's so revolutionary about that?
Opening the doors to the homebrew communities... Now I only see potental for that. If there was any doubt in my mind about getting one of these before.. It's gone now. Provided I'm right and Gizmodo is wrong.
This is really big news. On top off all the great advantages, this could possibly provide small companies and individuals with the distribution channel to really get into the gaming industry. This could really improve competition and the quality of games in general.
I wish Sony or Microsoft would do something like this as well. I remember Sony's Yaroze as well and it was a cool idea but it was expensive and you were somewhat limited in what you could do (game had to fit within the RAM of the Yaroze system I believe). The modern systems with their built-in or optional hard drives and network connection would be perfect for something like this. It should just be an additional software package with two discs, one for your console and one from your PC. If Microsoft wanted to they could release something like this for the current Xbox and extend the life of the system for many years to come.
I think that it's likely Nintendo could pull off an open programmer console.
First of all I know the so called creator of the Nintendo On video didn't just pop up and make another one of these. The frickin Revolution and On headset come spinning and flipping at the screen. I think every bit of it has come from Nintendo personally. I think it's for real.
27. Posted May 19, 2005, 9:56 AM ET by Dude McDude
http://www.gamerah.com/media/e3/Rev-On-E3.wmv
I wonder what the chances of this video being legit are? Anybody know anything about it?
http://www.gamerah.com/media/e3/Rev-On-E3.wmv
http://www.gamerah.com/media/e3/Rev-On-E3.wmv
That video looks fake... its really short and uses only footage previously produced, doubtless made by a forum person with premiere pro. This DIY code is interesting though although it would be easier just to design some PC software with a consumer friendly interface with the ability to burn revolution content to disc which you could then put into your machine. Obviously though if the controller were touch screen it may be possible to do it on the console itself.
The perfect scenario would wind up being something like Ragnarok online, where smaller publishers would be developing the games, and the end user could download the game to the console and pay the publisher money for the software or for a subscription. This could support a whole new cycle of game development.
I originally posted this in the "Nintendo Revolution: more to come?" thread, but I'd still like to get some feedback on these issues.
I was following the discussion surrounding the Nintendo Revolution and the tin foil center of my brain started acting up. Based on the evidence that and obvservations brought forth by numerous sources I've been able to come up with a few thinking points that I think may be interesting to others:
1. A truly open system?
Of course the first thing that really caught my attention in the NOA press release what the hinting that individual developers may be able to run games on the system. The inclusion of a general purpose memory interface (an SD card slot) provides an easy way of loading the games without the need for burning games to a disc format (even though DVD burners are quite prevalent now).
But wait, didn't NOA say that they were introducing a new DRM format? That they did, but they did not say how it would operate. In another words, DRM does not necessarily mean that you cannot run your own code on any particular machine (though that's what it usually means). The situation I'm hoping for would go something like this:
- NOA releases an open toolkit for developing games for the Revolution.
- If you want to develop a game for your system you get a tool which would sign any code you develop with the open toolkit with a personal DRM key to allow it to run on your particular machine, but not other people's machines.
- When you have a finished product, you submit your work to NOA who will sign it with a universal DRM key and make it available for download via the Revolution's online content distribution.
2. Nintendo On
If the video pointed to by Dude McDude is valid in any way then the evidence as outlined from the supposed leaked video, numerous patents filed by NOA, and this new E3 video points to a high level of validity in this peripheral.
So then is Nintendo On the actual headset shown in the video or is it a more encompassing design methodology behind the Revolution (ON-line, ON-screen, etc.)? There's something to this as evidenced by the registration of www.nintendoon.com and the homogeny of the leaked information making its way across the net. My guess? I lean towards On being a design philosophy with the visor simply being a current or to be released peripheral. SO then where does the Revolution fit into all of this?
3. Nintendo Revolution
Time and time again the media and NOA has reminded us that the Revolution will be no bigger than 3 DVD cases stacked on top of one another. Why are they so insistent upon this form factor is the release is still a year or more away?
Take a look at the case again. What's with that notch on the rear edge of the case? No doubt the case should be able to fit in the stand without this notch, so what purpose does this notch serve? Aesthetically it stick out more than adding to the beauty of the otherwise boxy device. Then is all seemed to come together: A rigid form factor, a keyed design... What if the Revolution is meant to be used as another peripheral in a larger Nintendo On design philosophy? Just like an SD card is keyed to fit into a memory slot only one way, what if the Revolution is meant to fit into a larger console/peripheral for easy expansion? An interface port on the back of the Revolution (note that not many if any pictures have been released of the rear of the system) would have to fit in an interface port only one way.
Could the Revolution be meant to fit into the base unit of the visor peripheral to play games? Can hook up multiple Revolutions in a Raid-style case to allow inter-Revolution communication? The mind runs wild with speculation... wild I say!
Then again, I can be totally wrong about this whole scenario and completely overthinking the situatin. Maybe I'm hoping too much, but both the cryptic nature of this system release and the ominous signs we are seeing have me hoping for something must better than another "high polygon count" gaming system.
Here's to hoping! And if I'm totally wrong, best of luck to you anyway dear Nintendo!
(My apologies for the cross post.)
High-priced video games are wonderful, but there's a lot of innovation untapped in the console market. This could be just the thing to spark a real revolution.
---
Think about what they said: as big budgets get bigger, it becomes riskier and riskier to try new things. As games get more expensive, theoretically, the gameplay should get more and more repetitive. Nintendo is fighting this terrible reality with the Revolution.
Sony and MS don't give a shit.. boring gameplay and gorgeous graphics.. that's their bread and butter.
Go ahead.. tell me Madden 2006 is going to be different from 2005.. think about it.. it's too expensive for them to take risks.. it's just not worth it..
Nintendo helping out indie developers.. wow.. this is awesome
Heh. The guy who created the On video admitted that it was a fake. Surprised you guys didn't hear about it. It was posted on cubehacker.com. The guy who made it was named Pablo Belmonte and he made it because he's annoyed at what he sees as a lack of innovation in the market.
And everyone considering Nintendo opening development, you're considering it from our point of view, from the consumer. Sure, it'd be great if banks gave you money instead of taking it away, but that's not a good idea for the bank. Think like Nintendo. They sell you a $500 box for $300. They depend on the fact you will buy a bunch of games for $50 a pop, of which they get $25 or so. They want to make up that loss. Or, they could allow homebrew code to run. In any form whatsoever, this hurts them. If you spend 8 hours whipping up a game just to show your friends on your own box, that's time you're not getting closer to beating a game and closer to buying another. It gains them nothing, and provides a very real risk to them. If homebrew code can run, homebrew code can extract data from legitimate games. If it can do that, it can save or transmit that data. Or, it can provide a way to boot that copied data. This happens eventually with any console, but Nintendo would not be one to put it out front.
Console manufacturers realize that the whole homebrew scene is a teeny, tiny niche market. They let it stay alive by not fighting it seriously. They just make sure that Joe Blow can't drop a game in their PC and copy it. If it takes some solder and a few hours of research to figure out how to copy games, then they're OK with it.
oh man i thought i was nuts. #38 your off your rocker.
Actually there is a perfect parallel to this theory (Nintendo opening up development to Joe Schmo) in the Computer world. Anybody noticed how many quad-billions of dollars the Sims has been making? The PC game had inferior technology and had been out a long time, and yet was still a top seller, and the new one is, too. Why? Because Maxis decided to make the game completely accessible to the users - you can modify ALMOST everything. And the updated version of the game (Sims 2) incorporates as much of the feedback as it could from the customers. So people felt like they had input into modifiable content.
This isn't compu-geeks we're talking about, either - The Sims is the only game a lot of people I know own for the computer. (ESPECIALLY WOMEN) Largely, that's because they feel like they can have more direct input into it.
As a business model, the practices of Maxis make perfect sense. They can be the gatekeepers of the thing, but leave it open enough to get everybody hooked. The Revolution could do the exact same thing, providing end-users with development tools to monkey with their technology. Fiscally, it made Maxis gobs and hobs of obscene amounts of money. (Did I mention, it made them gobs of money?)
And as far as the console price-wars go - Nintendo never had the business practices of, say, Microsoft. Making a huge, expensive machine and selling it at a loss. As I recall, Nintendo made money on their Gamecube right out of the gate, because they're careful. This is likely why the Revolution isn't going to be as high-powered as the other consoles - it keeps costs in an area where they can sell a powerful system without taking a loss.
With a business model like Maxis, and a console that is profitable out of the gate, I can see why Miyamoto says "To hell with the other game developers". They'll make gobs of money without anybody else's games.
If all this speculation turns out to be true, I know many people who will buy one of these things that haven't bought a videogame console in 15 years.
who said that this guy made this video ???
i am the one & only who made it !!!
Surprised you (Dustin Rodriguez) didn't hear about it
get real this video is way too big for one person.
ps:it's free to say anyting in the web so don't be shy
#39, revolution raid? =D that seems a little crazy, people arent going to buy 4 nintendo revolutions so that they render graphics in greater detail, or compile homebrew games faster.
on the topic of homebrew games, i agree with #41. homebrew game development is indeed a small niche market, and though the prospect of creating my own games seems interesting, i doubt we will ever see this come to pass.
#5 the yaroze and linux kit were crippled with limitations, thats why thyey never took off.. Sony didn't want to give away there dev kit for almost nothing
I don't know whether Revolution will actually allow "homebrew games". I think that's a bit of a stretch. Rather, I think this simply relates to Revolution's general ease of development.
The power issue isn't such an issue anymore. Recent articles suggest PS3 and Xbox 360 are somewhat disappointing, at least on the CPU side. Xbox 360 may in reality only be twice as capable as its predecessor.
I suspect that, first and foremost, the graphics on all of these consoles will be comparable. It'll be hard to tell the difference.
However, Revolution's ease of development (apparently) will allow for greater flexibility, lower costs and shorter development time. That would be really useful for smaller developers who can't afford PS3/Xbox 360 development.