Microsoft enlists nVidia's help with Xbox 360 backward compatibility
posted June 18th 2005 3:45PM
So Microsoft has sort of been evading giving a straight answer on the question of
backward compatibility with original Xbox games — they've
made some quasi-commitment to ensuring that the "best-selling" games would be playable on the new console, but haven't
given any details about how it all might work. It looks like the solution they may be opting for licensing technology
from nVidia that would allow the Xbox 360's ATI
graphics chip to emulate the NVidia chip from the original Xbox — at least, to some extent. Again, the details are
still a bit unclear, and it appears that many of the older games will still require some sort of recompilation or
modification to run on the new box. Patches or "emulation profiles" for some old games will supposedly ship on the Xbox
360's hard drive, with further patches to be distributed over time via Xbox Live.
[Thanks, Bill Shannon]
this is a couple of weeks old, least im the first one to comment
Well as long as you can play some of the XBOX games, I'll be fine
This is their second device, why wouldn't backward compatibility be a requirement from Day 1?
they should have it set up so that if it reads the old game in the drive you can downlaod the rom thorugh xbox live... that way we can all figure out how to "fake" have it in the drive and then have all the old xbox games on the new one, for free! :-)
I asked a buddy of mine of mine about this; he a hot-shit .NET programmer at Fermi National Accelerator Lab and what the hell trans-compilation is. He said, in simple terms, is that when you play the old XBOX game the game's runtimes and executables will be compiled and translated in realtime. Essentially the patches are 'translation tablets' for the old XBOX games, and the new tech in the 360.
What's really interesting he notes is that with the 3 processor cores; 1 CPU will do the compiling and the other one will do the translation. The third will handle any extra chores related to this and plus handle playing the game. There's more than enough horse power in the box to pull this off.
Engadget, PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!!!
It has been stated many times before by many MS employees (most notably Larry Hyrb AKA Major Nelson) that games WILL NOT need any type of recompile or modification. you will put them in and they will play (assuming they are supported). EVERYTHING will be handled through the emulation profile, so NO modifications to the games at all.
SO leaving Nvidia tech for ATI tech wasn't such a good idea after all. Now MS pays both ATI and Nvidia.
they better just have blanket support for everything. if i have to keep my xbox around to play any of the games i'll just pick up a PS3 instead.
So its not really backwards compatible, its just an emulator for SOME older XBox games. It'll be interesting to see if Sony and especially Nintendo follow the same path for their backwards compatibility.
Xbox is crap along with everything else that shit company makes.
if i was nvidia i would make Micro$oft use my graphics card in the 360. you know, just to screw over m$ as much as possible.
I'm sure that the whole emulation problem is not due to hardware, but more so on the software side. Have you ever heard of high level emulation? Bascially this is what they are trying to pull off, but the imcompatibilites come with all the different Xbox SDKs compiling different binaries.
As soon as xbox 360 comes out I am 100% certain we will see a great advance in xbox emulation, with all these emulation profiles being released from microsoft everything will happen so fast it will be great.
for all those who don't read bullshit reports from a month ago:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php(que)id=120658
BACKWARDS COMPATABILITY ON THE XBOX 360 EXPLAINED
ATI interview reveals the intricacy and ease of playing original Xbox games on the 360
17:29 In an interview with Bit-Tech, Richard Huddy described as 'evangelist' at ATI has talked about the architecture of the Xbox 360, and most importantly, how it'll handle original Xbox games.
"Emulating the CPU isn't really a difficult task. They have three 3GHz cores, so emulating one 733MHz chip is pretty easy. The real bottlenecks in the emulation are GPU calls - calls made specifically by games to the Nvidia hardware in a certain way. General GPU instructions are easy to convert - an instruction to draw a triangle in a certain way will be pretty generic. However, it's the odd cases, the proprietary routines, that will cause hassle."
"They have implemented compatibility purely through emulation (at the CPU level). It looks like emulation profiles for each game are going to be stored on the hard drive, and I imagine that a certain number will ship with the system. They already have the infrastructure to distribute more profiles via Live, and more and more can be made available online periodically" said Huddy.
This means that Microsoft could have the power to deliver patches through Live - basically making the Xbox 360 fully able to emulate virtually any game from the original Xbox. Let's hope Microsoft are willing to go the extra mile and and eventually patch virtually every Xbox game rather than just the major prestige titles like Halo and GTA.
Typical MS kludgeware.
people are cutting down MS's approach to this whole backwards compatibility with the original Xbox.. saying its a kludge, or saying they hope Nvidia screws MS over..
first off, how do you expect backwards compatibility to occur? You either take the Sony route like they did in the PS2 and put a little mini PS1 in there. This starts to get expensive as u try to do this for more complex hardware. The only other route is software emulation, which people seem to be down on MS for. People don't seem to understand the 360 is an entirely different architecture, but these people seem to think they should be able to put in an old Xbox game and the 360 will just magically play it.. sorry, but thats not how it works.
As for Nvidia making things difficult for MS.. last i checked, Nvidia was a corporation. Its not in their best interests to NOT make money. It is, however, beneficial for them to HELP with the backwards compatibility issue, as they stand to make $$$ by licensing out their IP.
#10:
there's only one Xbox SDK. there's more than one IDE for Xbox, but there's only one SDK and all games compile the same way.
I like the green debug kits in the background. Are those Xbox or 360 kits?
#14:
those are Xbox debug kits.
in other words, you get a couple old games you can play without problem, some your'll be able to play later on whenever the emulation profiles are being delivered (for pay?), and some you'll never be able to play on the new hardware as that particular game wasn't an as big selling hit or because the company who made it folded and the current rights are disputed. In all, a sucky solution and basically the result of the xbox being cobbled together with parts from too many other parties.
"Easter6
first off, how do you expect backwards compatibility to occur? You either take the Sony route like they did in the PS2 and put a little mini PS1 in there. This starts to get expensive as u try to do this for more complex hardware. The only other route is software emulation, which people seem to be down on MS for. People don't seem to understand the 360 is an entirely different architecture, but these people seem to think they should be able to put in an old Xbox game and the 360 will just magically play it.. sorry, but thats not how it works."
*sorry, but thats not how it works.*
Well,It would seem that sony disagrees with you :D
The PS3 will be backwards compatible with PS2 & 1 Games...
So If I understand this rightly...
With the 360...
Hope and Pray that your fav game is one of the one's patched...
You'll have to pay for the online service(To download said *Fix's*)
With the PS3...
Drop in your Fav PS1,2,3 game and play.
Real Rocket Science huh
Hirudin raises a very good point, why do people expect that it be backwards compatible. Few systems through history were backwards compatible.
If people did more research they would realize that the hardware is very very different from the old Xbox. Radically different from any hardware structure in any console system.
People didnt cry compatibility when the Nintendo 64 came out. So why now?
You Sony fans are such tools. You buy any crap Sony feeds you without question.
Backwards compatibility is only an issue for the first year of a consoles release. You know, like when the PS2 came out, and there were only 2 playable games for the first year. (That fireworks simulator was pretty cool though huh!) When the flood of games hits, no one cares anymore.
Same with Xbox, people will want to play those key old games to tide them over, then when the real games rush in, NO ONE will care.
Backwards compatibility is cool, but absolutely not essential.
I currently have 15 XB games, and will probably have 18 by the time 360 launches.
I see 3? Three 360 launch titles which interest me.
It sure would be nice if I could play ALL of my 18 original XB games one the 360.
You are an unusual customer Shaun. The average person buys(or rents) a game, beats it, and gets rid of it. I personally don't have the time to play all the NEW games I have, let alone go back and play old ones. Consider the best selling game every year. Madden. Is anyone going to want to play the old xbox version when 2006 is released for 360?
They already got the liscense from NVidia. But they haven't confirmed backwards compatibility.
RE #23 Eric W:
"Sony fans are such tools."
What about XBox fans who try to rewrite history, Eric?
"Backwards compatibility is only an issue for the first year of a consoles release. You know, like when the PS2 came out, and there were only 2 playable games for the first year."
Let's see. In addition to the fireworks simulator, Sony launched with the following very "playable" titles:
SSX
Madden NFL 2001
Tekken Tag Tournament
Midnight Club: Street Racing
Smuggler's Run
...and in the next 365 days added "Game of the Year" nominees like:
Grand Tourismo 3
Grand Theft Auto 3
Devil May Cry
...plus the still critically acclaimed Ico, as well as:
Twisted Metal Black
Ace Combat 4
Onimusha
Madden 2002
FIFA 2002
Time Crisis 2
...and many more.
Yet you say "there were only 2 playable games for the first year."
What?
Yeah. We should really listen to what you have to say. You obviously have no bias. Now go back to Major Nelson's site where you belong. You obviously don't belong anywhere near reality.
Man, this doesn't have to be a biased and prejudiced situation. I have 2 of the "big 3" consoles, and at one time, have had all 3. Each one has it's merits and disadvantages. The new generation of consoles will follow that path. The only difference is, that Sony will be the one "trying to re-write history" with the cell processor. I do believe that the XBox 360 and the PS3 will be at least somewhat compatible (Sony promises more than somewhat, but if you keep your hopes at a reasonable level, you can't be dissappointed), but I think Eric W was right when he said that backwards compatibility is only really important for a short period of time... especially with certain games. Also, doesn't it make sense that if you own 15 XBox games, that you already own an XBox too? If you are just gonna buy an XBox 360 to play last years tired old games, then save yourself some money and keep your XBox sitting on top of the entertainment center, and leave the XBox 360 sitting on the store shelf. But either way, we are all gamers, and regardless of what console we play the most, we all love the same thing. So, what the hell is everyone getting so pissy for?
Amen brother Curtybob... Amen
A lot of guys sound really upset over this whole thing. I Have an xbox and a game cube. But when I get that urge to be 5 years old and play Zelda for snes I dont whine about the game cube not playing it. I either break out my snes or download a rom onto my modded xbox. Personnlly if you want backward compatablity then duct tape all of youre consoles together and splice some wires together. Tada! Xbox 360 plays xbox 360 games. Xbox plays xbox games (and more if you wish ;) Nes plays nes... ect. What is wrong with that? I hardly know anyone that plays ps1 games anymore. The people that do are a minority. So every one take a deep breath. Relax. Enjoy the 360 and the PS3. Life is too short to waste your breath on backward compatibility.
Joel, Ico and Devil May Cry were NOT released during the PS2's first year. Neither was GTA3. It was released on the same day as the XBOX. I know, because I have a PS2. And I was miffed by the launch lineup because I bought a PS2 at launch, and it gathered dust for months, since most of the games on your list either hadnt been released yet, or sucked(Twisted Metal Black, I'm looking at you). The fact is, I got more use out of my Dreamcast that first year. Get YOUR facts straight.
Regardless, my point was that after the first year of ANY console, backwards compatibility is a non issue, and I stand by that. The average customer does not keep all these games. That's why I'm always stuck in such a long line at EB games behind the family trading in 15 titles.
You know, you can just plug in your old xbox and play. Its not all that hard. It you just HAVE to play old xbox games, then just play them on an xbox and shut up about it.
RE #30 Eric W:
"Joel, Ico and Devil May Cry were NOT released during the PS2's first year. Neither was GTA3. It was released on the same day as the XBOX. I know, because I have a PS2. And I was miffed by the launch lineup because I bought a PS2 at launch, and it gathered dust for months, since most of the games on your list either hadnt been released yet, or sucked(Twisted Metal Black, I'm looking at you). The fact is, I got more use out of my Dreamcast that first year. Get YOUR facts straight."
WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.
PS2 Release date: 10/26/2000
Ico: 9/24/01
Devil May Cry 10/16/01
GTA3: 10/22/01
I checked all these dates against both the Gamespot and Gamefaqs databases. Feel free to do the same. I don't know how my facts could get any straighter. You can also find a longer list of first year PS2 games here:
http://www.psxextreme.com/scripts/misc/misc.asp?MiscID=41
I don't know what is more funny...you being so wrong, or that an XBox fanboy is trying to say that the PS2 had a bad first year for titles. Do you recall how many good titles were available year one for the XBox? I do. The answer is three. Halo, Project Gotham Racing, and Jet Set Radio...Splinter cell came out two days late, or it would have been four.
Unless you are the one fighter fan that actually thought DOA wasn't a piece of button-mashing junk...
Can You Say "XBox Update"?
Whenecer Microsoft Codes ANYTHING, They Manage To Put Huge Holes In It. XBox Update Is Probably No That Far Behind...
I just hope my old games won't become coasters and I'll still be able to play them on the 360 since I sold my Xbox already...
(`..-> fLeShTwIsTeR <-..)
The Puzzle Box Shop
http://www.HellraiserPuzzleBox.com
A literal year huh. Well, I guess you got me Joel. My PS2 only sat dusty for 51 weeks, not 52. I bow to your superior knowledge. But my point still stands. After the first year of a consoles life, backwards compatibility is a non issue. Would you like to discuss that rationally, or continue calling me an xbox fanboy?(something I find equally as offensive as being a PS2 fanboy)
OK. I called you an XBox fanboy because that's what you sounded like. If I was wrong I apologise. "Sony Hater" would have been more accurate perhaps?
Non Issue? No. Hardcore gamers will already have all three next-gen consoles. That's three things sitting around the TV. That's already a lot of living room/bedroom real estate. I don't want to have have to Dig out the PS1 from the closet every time I want to whip through Final Fantasy Tactics or my gf wants to fire up Parrappa and Bomberman either. I suspect that in the future, when my shiny new 360 is sitting around, I might still want to fire up some Panzer Dragoon Orta or Ninja Gaiden in the same fashion.
I think backwards compatibility should be a slam-dunk for Microsoft, esp. with Nvidias help. The system should easily have the power to do that, so that means it is a lack of effort, not technology. I don't know why they are hedging their bets, but that's what they seem to be doing, and it is frustrating.
I suspect you are probably a younger gamer than me, and that's why it doesn't matter to you that much. As an old fart, I've got a pretty good library built up over the PS1 and PS2, and to me it is a big added value for a console to support those games. I'd like to be confident that the 360 will provide that added value as well.
I think Xbox fans should be demanding that Microsoft aggressively pursue it. If they did, Microsoft could spend the money, hire the people and get it done, because the fans demand it. Instead, the Xbox community is so afraid of any negative talk about the 360 right now that they are willing to make excuses for Microsoft dancing around the subject.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease, after all.
I doubt very seriously if Microsoft is willing to be overly concerned with backwards compatibility when in the long run it will be more costly to own Xbox 360 because of it. You really dont think that nvidia is going to let them emulate their card for free, do you? There is no doubt that xbox 360 has the power to do it, but nvidia will make them pay dearly for doing it. I have read several forums where there are varying amounts of whining concerning this, but in discussions with real people in my area, no one really cares about backwards compatibility. Some do say that it would be "neat", but still not a deciding factor. For me it is a non-issue since placement of my existing xbox along with the xbox 360 will take up very little additional room. I also doubt if "the Xbox community is so afraid of any negative talk about the 360 right now that they are willing to make excuses for Microsoft dancing around the subject", rather i suspect that more to the truth is the playstation community is afraid that someone might actually pay attention to the lies that sony presents in the buildup to ps3 (like they did with ps2) and cause them to lose marketshare.
MS is shooting itself if it doesn't create added value for the 360. I like to play older titles frequently, and it would piss me off to have to keep my first box just to play older titles. This business of an indirect answer is annoying beause it could all be solved with a cheap DSP and a few lines of code. All this talk of software emulation is moot because with software, you typically get uneven performance, especially on later titles. Microsoft may very well figure this out, but it's up to them to figure out how much money they want to lose. People don't want to have to spend more money than they absolutely have to, and $60 for a game is a lot for most consumers, let alone hardcore gamers
The people trying to rewrite reality are the ones that are saying that Microsoft is going to charge for the emulation profiles. Microsoft has long said that they were going to make them available over the free version of xbox live. And it does seem to be pretty intuitive that the people that have xbox games are going to have an XBOX, come on!
Joel, I appreciate the easing down of escalations on this issue. I'm an old enough gamer to have had a LARGE collection of games over the years(I'm 28), and in fact keep a 7800 around because of it's backwards compatibility(2600 and 5200 are both covered). Besides, it's a moot point, because if they cover even half of the older titles, the only ones who will be miffed will be the hardest of the hardcore, who can't play there favorite obscure titles.
I am a comment spammer: hirudin@earthlink.net
I don't know much about the problem of backwards compatibility, but I will say one thing. For all of you PS2 fanboys check out which system is the best selling now. Oh how bout that it's XBox. PS2 started dying as soon as XBox came out, and XBox 360 will kick PS3's ass all over the place. There is no comparison to the systems. One is better than the other, and that one is XBox 360. Check the specs if you don't believe me. New issue of XBox Mag. The 360 is about three or four time better than the XBox, and the XBox was already twice as good as PS2. Read the Specs for PS3, They don't compare with 360. Also with the argument of backwards compatibility on the PS3 it's because it's the same basic equipment. 360 is completely new.
too true. the Ps3 is estimated to only have 50% of the next gen market, a 20 % decrease from having 70% over xbox and gamecube. if you ask me, microsoft is doin something right with the video game industry. plus, the xbox live is the best online service that i know of.
Finally someone agrees with me. I got people arguing with me over which one is better. If you look at the market, though and votes from the gaming community people started to sell their PS2's to buy XBox's. People liked that more than PS2, and they are going to like XBox 360 more than PS3, and Nintendo better get their head out of their asses or we are going to have another Dreamcast on our hands.