Warring next-generation DVD factions give up on unified format talks
By Barb Dybwad 
posted Aug 22nd 2005 8:48PM
posted Aug 22nd 2005 8:48PM
Well, it's been a wild ride up and down (and mostly down) on the HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray DVD format war roller coaster, and now all hope of a unified DVD format is officially lost. Sony and Toshiba have totally given up all efforts to continue the unification talks. Looks like the war will officially be waged in the market, with plenty of potential home theater installation casualties likely. It's gonna be bloody.
NOOOOOO not another useless media! all the hundreds of dollars we're gonna have to spend on technologies that we know will be totally obsolete in under 2 years! why cant these media moguls just get along?
I can see blueray loosing to the consumers who are afraid of change (most non techies) who would go towards the one with DVD in the name since its familiar.
Thank god.
At least this way there's a possibility that one of them will realize that their current path of playing lapdog to the mediaproviders and not the consumers is a bad thing.
Not to mention the obvious pricing benefits.
May the best format win i say.
Holographic versatile-discs will beat both of them when they become affordable(probably less then two years after Bluray and hd-dvd become affordabel)
#2 is right. Not to mention the "HD" tag being put in there. Consumers see "HD" and their eyes get big and glassy.
So the familiarity of "DVD" and the "glow" of anything "HD" will most likley win.
Just wait... HD DVD players bundled with shiny new 42" HD plasma's, with free 3 months of HD programming and free HD recievers. Such clarity that can only come from going outside and seeing the world through your own eyes.
on second thought, youre right. most consumers will probably swing towards whats familiar so blu-ray will need some incredibly amazing marketing program otherwise the only people using it are the techies. this could be a long fight though if any consoles or such technologies use it as a standard (PS3 disks are supposedly blu-ray, right?)
yes #7 PS3 is blue-ray
All this does is hurt both companies and the market as a whole. Who wants to buy all the equipment just to have the format die on them. All it does is potentially screw over early adopters. For my money I will be waiting until I see who wins
All this does is hurt both companies and the market as a whole. Who wants to buy all the equipment just to have the format die on them. All it does is potentially screw over early adopters. For my money I will be waiting until I see who wins
i dunno, HD-DVDs were in floppy-disk-esque cases last time i saw em, i think the market will see Bluray as more familar because, well, its still a disc, its not a big cassette, its a disk, and will probably seen from the public as better because it doesnt look like a big floppy disk
plus, imagine little jimmys sadness when all of his HD-DVD that he got for his birthday dont work on his shiny new (standard) DVD player, a lot of people will be confused
"o wow i got some new movies, now how do these darn-fangled things fit into my VCR"
hahaha, nice job #8
War, There will be no war. There will be no need for neither Blue-Ray or HD DVD. These are just extension to existing technology. Pass history have show us unless the replacement technology provide more feature than out going one, there will be no replacement. Example: There is no such thing as larger vinyl or longer audio cassette tape…
Just storing more isn’t enough for consumer to upgrade when we (as consumer) just adopted DVD as a VHS replacement format.
I see solid state as the more possible and viable replacement, with DRM ever evolving.
Think about it in the context of mobile, downloadable content arena, why anyone would want to buy BR-DVD or HD-DVD when they are just as easily damage as normal DVD.
I see SD or even MS as the future portable media medium with the usability and the attraction of a blank media to entice the customer. Remember 10 years ago, who would have imagine we all be (and want to) carry around our entire audio content in our pocket. I now picture we will all carry our entire entertainment experience (audio, video, picture, Podcast, TIVO, Timeshift and placeshifting content) in our pocket and all auto update while in out pocket using Free WiFi from Google….
i was but a wee tot when the beta vs VHS wars were going on, could someone fill me in on what happened and why VHS won? was it consumer familiarity or some such thing?
Can't most of these problems be avoided by simply creating hardware that will be able to read both formats (similar to the dvd-/+ and DVD-ROM/CD-ROM drives we currently have)?
you know, we're seeing a lot of new formats and such that hold more data and others that have higher quality (music or video for example) but even now the vast majority of people simply dont have a need to store more than 4 gigs of data on a single CD. most people(exept those that pirate movies off the internet constantly) just dont have a need for such huge amounts of storage space. and even a full length dvd quality movie only takes about 1.5 gigs or so. In this case i think we are all being blinded by progress and are forgetting about practicality, do we really need this new format?
#15 VHS won because it was licensed more and sony tried to keep beta proprietary. and it looks as though they might betamax themselves out of the market again. When will they ever learn that people want compatability. If they try to lock up Blu-Ray, people will go with HD-DVD because it is more familiar, as mentioned above, and because it will most likely give them more options. Sony's habit of making everything proprietary is also one of the main reasons we probably won't see a dual format player/writer. This is very sad because compatability is the main issue in the Apple vs non-Apple wars. There would be so few people fighting over it if there were universal file types that were cross platform.
The PS3 will have Blu-Ray. The XBOX 360 will have HD. The DVD format wars will be an extension of the console wars. As much as I hate them, Sony will win.
#17: Try recording an hour of 1080p on a DVD. Ain't happening. That's what the new formats are for.
The thing is, Blu-ray should win. It has higher capacity than HD-DVD, and unlike Betamax, it is not proprietory. Big companies like Hitachi, JVC, LG, Mitsubishi, Philips, Sharp, et cetera are all supporting the Blu-ray format with Blu-ray recorders. There are also more than half a dozen companies making Blu-ray media, including the veteran media-manufacturer TDK.
#14 - 'There is no such thing as larger vinyl or longer audio cassette tape…'
Ever heard of LP's? 45's? 90 and 120 minute blank tapes? Maybe before your time, but definately there were such things...
Bye bye HD-DVD - was nice knowing ya.
btw, can we please ban "anonymous" posters in here?
#21, #14's point was that eventually the media became obsolete. if i remember correctly LP was just a slower and lower quality recording speed and the larger tape times were measured at this lower speed. and within a few years all this was already being replaced by cd's. i'd like to mention the "holographic card" data storage story a few weeks ago that was the size of a playing card and held 30g of data. new technologies will soon replace the CD and whether they are holographic cards or super-futuristic technology that seems alien to us today, the CD's days are numbered.
Both will falter, and both will survive, and neither will ever really be accepted at the "standard", because 95% just don't care about about this stuff, and speaking as a techophile, I don't blame them at all. There's still so little in the way of content. Most people don't have HDTVs. Most people who do have them don't have them calibrated properly, nor do they actually watch any HD programming. Even so, the progressive scanning makes the analog crap they're used to look so much better, that they're satisfied.
Q: Remember the SACD/DVD-A format war? Is that still even going on? A: Who cares! I have a degree in Sound Engineering, and I don't even care! Do they sound better than CDs? Yes. Can anybody who has an air-contitioned home or lives in a city find a listening enviroment quiet enough to tell? No. In truth, when it comes to music, the content is so much more important than the quality that people actually own iPods. I rip songs to my Karma at only 96 Kbps (Ogg Vorbis, baby!), because in my car (and I have a good sound-system) and in the gym (and I have good canal-phones), 96K Vorbis files are good enough for me to notice the compression, and I want to save the space.
Don't get me wrong, I love HDTV, but if you asked that 95% what they'd prefer, they'd probably say they want the entire first season of Friends on one HD-DVD or BD than have 13 discs at 1080P. Techophile that I am (and I have a 1080P set, which I mostly use for a computer monitor at this point) give me the first season of Lost at 720P on 4 discs, but I don't want to see any compression artifacts like I see all the time on current DVDs and HD-Cable (Comcast sucks). Seriously, what is the point of HD if they're just going to compress it until its all blocky on every scene change?
Although Microsofts supports HD-DVD, the Xbox360 will not have HD-DVD. Not at launch. The Xbox360 will have dual-layer 12x DVD.
i'm NOT replacing my movie collection... again. the line gets drawn at dvd's and backward compatibility. the quality is great and i don't care if the format will be obsolete. it beats VHS and i'm not going thru this "move all your stuff from one format to another" crap again.
Oh dear God. Wha...what is this? Do they really expect the consumer to go with having 2 different types? That's just pathetic. My opinion: The whole thing's gonna flop. It's gonna be just as effed up as AMD vs. Intel with 2 aspects:
1) One is always gonna do SOMETHING the other can't do as well. It's just the difference between the products and the parts. No matter what each will have a difference.
2) Where are we aiming for here? Are we TRYING to be big babies over this? What ever happened to specifications? If my #1 was right, one is gonna differ than the other in certain aspects, right?
So, use the one with faster reading speeds for gaming, and the one with faster writing speeds for video-esque applications. It's frikkin simple people! MAN this world is full of disgusting, whinny people.
#20 you have got it right. Sony is not set to lose another format war, if anyone is keeping a format proprietary it is Toshiba. The only manufactures I can think of for HD-DVD are Toshiba, NEC, RCA (playing both sides), and Sanyo.
It also seems that everyone has already forgotten about the significant loses HD-DVD has experienced lately. Remember they lost Fox studios and Lions Gate, and Paramount canceled all of their movie releases for this winter. The Christmas season that Toshiba was hoping would help launch HD-DVD past Blu-Ray with a first mover advantage, seems to have grown less significant in the past few weeks
Check these links out
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=568288
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=570559
Blu-Ray is superior and will probably win this battle because of its size, copy protection, future upgradeability b/c of size, and finally the list of manufacturers. The PS3 is going to be released sometime next year and I think it may have a major impact on the success or failure of Blu-Ray. It will probably be the cheapest Hi-Def player a consumer can buy and it will double as one hell of a game system. I can think back to when a lot of younger people such as myself had a Ps2 as their only DVD player. I think this could easily happen with the PS3 making it a lot of peoples' first HD content player.
Well anyway we can wait and see I plan on waiting till the PS3 I don’t know about you guys.
I think holographic sounds excellent - i'd much rather go with that than either Blu-ray or HD-DVD. Never been impressed with the way CDs/DVDs allow you to easily scratch them - DVD-RAM was actually quite a good idea, shame it had to compete with cheaper implementations. My point earlier was just to point out that incremental improvements DO happen - such as dual layer DVD-RW's - in fact many would call HD-DVD an incremental improvement (despite using blue laser).
Solid state is the way of the future, but prices will have to drop by a factor of 100 or so to compete on price... one day, but not in the next couple of years IMHO.
I think whichever format is easiest to pirate is going to end up the winner. Either that, or it will be driven by which _console_ is easier to pirate games for. Piracy has always been a major driver for new technology.
#17 said "we're seeing a lot of new formats and such that hold more data and others that have higher quality"
With data all digital, capacity _is_ quality. If you have more storage space, you can store bigger files (which are higher-quality).
There is a little more to it than that: you need enough reading speed and reliability as well as storage space, but both of those are good enough for now that they are not bottlenecks to movie-watching.
This thread and topic are hysterical.
Take poster #1.
"NOOOOOO not another useless media! all the hundreds of dollars we're gonna have to spend on technologies that we know will be totally obsolete in under 2 years! why cant these media moguls just get along?"
HAVE to spend that money huh....
If NOBODY bought this admittedly obsolete media, nobody would be a "casualty".
The only reason format wars are possible is because of US. Not them.
WE put so much power behind owning the format that we CREATE these format wars.
what do you want to bet the only blue ray blank disks and burners are going to be sony, and cost 600 bucks and 30 bucks each, respectivley?
that alone will kill blu-ray.
#21. I think you misunderstood my point. i was born in 72 and i know about 45 and 90 records, Cassette tape i have even seen 160 but I know not of 360 cassette tape?
Each replacing technology represent a paradigm shift, and a major leap forward in advancement in technology LP to (8Track is here some where)Tape, Tape to CD to (HD A-DVD) DVD... But DVD to HD or Blue Ray isn’t a real paradigm shift or major advancement in technology. I myself is tired of carrying around CD in its present size and format. I bet many who love the idea of buying a movie on SD with 10GB of capacity, Take it home and off loaded to you DVR with 500GB build in HDD. Then using this blank SD for other purpose.
I also see a TB DVR with built in time/place shifting feature in the not so distance future where we all will off load our DVD collection in transition to new media format.
GREED.
Thats all this is about. What a sad day.
unified? it's a long way to go
i'm confident both will flop. this technology is for professionals and early adopters only. vhs had a run of about 20 years before dvds took over...most normal folk are still just getting comfortable with their dvd players which they've had for under 10. hd is a cool buzz word these days but i don't think most people will go for another format shift until well after 2008 (when analog broadcasts are terminated). recording shows to optical media is a trend that will never get off the ground. it's called tivo, people. this whole situation reeks of laserdisc.
I've blogged about this here (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/HD-DVD-Unifications-Talks-Fail.htm), but this is really stupid. We are going to get caught in the middle of a format war, either having to choose one format and hope it wins, or wait the war out, which is going to hold back the adoption of a HD DVD format.
Personally, I'd like to get the two groups together and lock them in a room until they either agree on a compromise or one kills the other...
Who cares? Im still using vcr tapes. you people have to much time on your hands ... no wonder america is so fat. GET OFF THE COUCH!
What is everyone talking about? Name ten companies that COMBINED will sell as many HD-DVD players as Sony will sell PS3's. If you got it you'll buy it. Does anyone think it's coincidence that DVD blew up just as the PS2 was selling millions? I would say no. The people who buy tons of movies aren't only adults. Kids and gamers buy tons of movies as well.
I just want a format for backing up stuff from my computer, I could care less what format they sell movies on. I'll end up hacking a 360 and offloading movies from my computer that I ripped off whatever format they decide upon. But I like blue ray because of how much larger it is. That way, I can store almost 1/4 of my hard drive on one disc for back up purposes.
I really want those holo-card things. I loved cartridges in gaming systems, maybe in the gen after this, we'll finally see a return to cartridges... except they'll be holographic storage cards... but hey it's close enough.
By the way i think it may be worth mentioning that the gaming industry is now worth more than the movie industry. therefore, i would think that gamers and game producers will be deciding on the formats and not the other way around. the sony ps3 will most definately have a huge impact on this "war". On the other hand, the psp whose UMD discs are just about obsolete even now in my mind which makes me somewhat angry cause i'm one of those that was suckered into paying $250 and another $50 for 5 games that will die along with the system in about 1-2 years from now. If someone were to develop a wifi-based telephony and smart-phone like software for the psp then it would be a very viable solution for the average consumer. anyways, i'm getting off topic now but you got my point.
By the way i think it may be worth mentioning that the gaming industry is now worth more than the movie industry. therefore, i would think that gamers and game producers will be deciding on the formats and not the other way around. the sony ps3 will most definately have a huge impact on this "war". On the other hand, the psp whose UMD discs are just about obsolete even now in my mind which makes me somewhat angry cause i'm one of those that was suckered into paying $250 and another $50 for 5 games that will die along with the system in about 1-2 years from now. If someone were to develop a wifi-based telephony and smart-phone like software for the psp then it would be a very viable solution for the average consumer. anyways, i'm getting off topic now but you got my point.
In less then 3 years, Home TB DVR would become reality at a mainstream pricing. Time/place shifting becomes the norm. WiFi would come to maturity, broadband become the defacto connection. About the same time, fiber to the curb is also being materialized in most metropolitan area. Then what, do you think Blockbuster is still going to be around? How would you like to get your media/entertainment? Why waste time going to your local rental store? In the future, I see with just a few clicks, media would be obtain (legally) and ready to be consumed at your leisure. The content you have chosen will be ready for you at your home media appliance (Multi TerraByte DVR), this appliance would be able to auto sync (Blueing) with your pocket device (MP3, PDA, Phone…etc). These same devices would be able to auto sync with your automobile. Contend include new release movie, recorded television, home video, photo, music, desktop environment, work desktop environment, all will be completely portable, This portable device will be completely solid state, but extremely user friendly. Do you see what I see? I see a version of IPOD with only flash memory but in the present day form factor of IPOD. Yes, a 60GB Flash base IPOD. You plug it in at work and bring up your work environment, you take you with you while you drive home, it play your content, you bring it home and it will bring up your home environment… Sweet.
Forget Blue Ray or HD DVD as media medium, it's too little, too late.
I'm going to sit back and wait this out. I'm not in any hurry for HD-DVD or Bluray. I don't see why people are saying they have to choose between the two? You have a third choice. NEITHER. If someone gave you a plate of horse shit and another plate of pig shit and told you to decide; decide to not eat shit. The best thing for consumers is to not buy either. This can give other tech more time to mature and become cheaper.
As for the PS3 with bluray... Sony has a history of hyping their systems to no end. Aren't the first bluray players supposed to be in the 500$ range? How much exactly is the PS3 going to be with bluray, usb, ieee, hard drive, wireless, wifi (?), etc? I just think Sony is going to continue dropping hints that the PS3 will have bluray and then announce a few weeks before the release date that they won't be selling it with bluray or you can have bluray for an additional 400$ (how many people use their PS2 as their main DVD player? After the novelty wears off, why would the PS3 be any different?)
#19. It doesn't matter what big company supports BR. if consumers choose the consumer friendly and more familiar format, HD + DVD = HD-DVD, then all those who supported BR will have to pay HD-DVD's creators royalty.
Like some have mentioned above, I do see trends where media will be on flexible media. iPod ate the music CD. Apple showed how you can crunch a whole collection of music into a pocket with mp3. Sure a DVD could hold a zillion mp3s or CD audio, but no one is going to buy it now. a pocket player or home pc is the prefered medium now and the future.
Video are increasingly going to DVRs. People will get so used to this that when 100Mbps comes, we'll totally ignore any DVD or HD-DVD or BR.
Compression + read/write + transportable/compatibility.
if Apple only allowed AAC, it would not have succeeded. Sony did it their way.
Quality alone haven't won much.
Laser Disc, SACD,DVD-Audio,Superbit,even HD.
I think most people are willing to put up with
lesser quality if they can get everything else.
I think this format issue will be resolved like the writable dvd issue few years back. Companies will just make players that will play multiple formats.
i guess we will just have to wait to see what the pr0n industry does, as with vhs and betamax, this was the real reason vhs won, you could get erotic material on vhs and not on betamax, that's also why philips lost with their video2000 standard.
wait and see wait and see
Wow. This is really just another attempt by Sony to drive some weird proprietary format. Does anyones else see that? Look at SACD - Sony pulled this last go around. DVD-Audio is a slightly more prevelant format, but both suffered and I think having both formats left consumers confused. Sony does this bs all the time. Memory stick? WTF? ATRAC-3? UMD? Give me a break.
Whoever suggested that the Playstation is responsible for the rise of DVD...holy crap. Are you serious? Maybe for the "I am going to watch TV/play video games while driving" crowd...but the market as a whole ....sorry. Maybe the increase in internet usage is from people wanting reviews of their favortie playstation game. Ohhhh...or couch sales!
HD-DVD is still backed by the DVD Consortium, so it'll carry the official DVD logo and name. The capicity is very close to blu-ray, uses far less DRM, and costs far cheaper to produce per disc, and can also play normal DVD formats off the same disc. When you go to the store to buy a movie, you wont need to look for a seperate case depending if you want DVD or HD-DVD, both formats will be on the same disc, so it will support the old and new players. You wont need to rebuy movies lateron when you finally upgrade to an HD-DVD player.
Porn industry? They'll go with HD-DVD most likely. Backwards compatible and far cheaper costs will keep everything the same as it is now. Less hassle.
Everyone here saying that HD-DVD will win just because of its name should rethink position. Now I do agree that HD-DVD has a much better name and it is definitely easier to market from a prospective of current consumer knowledge. However you have to realize that it is about what the Studios are going to provide and who is going to manufacture the players etc that will help determine the winner. Sony and company has the advantage here with the two largest computer manufactures in the US and they have most of the major electronics manufacturers I can easily see them winning in this category.
The amount of Blu-Ray players that they are going to be able to produce will also help the prices fall quicker then the HD-DVD players
It’s mildly disingenuous for some of you to suggest or believe that Sony and Sony alone are the sole force driving the Blu-ray format. Certainly some of you hate Sony with a fiery passion, but just because they support Blu-ray doesn’t mean that it’s a bad format or anything. All things being equal (namely video compression algorithm,) why wouldn’t your inner geek support the format that stores more? Nevermind that HD-DVD discs being cheaper to manufacture clearly PR smokescreen anyway – if any of you believe that HD-DVD discs are going to cost less at the store than equivalent Blu-ray discs in the short-term, be prepared for a nice surprise.
Remember, other companies you *do* like, like Panasonic, Samsung, Dell, HP, and Apple, are Blu-ray backers too (shocking, I know.) Sure it’s fun to think of Sony as the evil empire but that just isn’t the case this time around. Get your bias off.