Warring next-generation DVD factions give up on unified format talks
By Barb Dybwad 
posted August 22nd 2005 8:48PM
posted August 22nd 2005 8:48PM
Well, it's been a wild ride up and down (and mostly down) on the HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray DVD format war roller coaster, and now all hope of a unified DVD format is officially lost. Sony and Toshiba have totally given up all efforts to continue the unification talks. Looks like the war will officially be waged in the market, with plenty of potential home theater installation casualties likely. It's gonna be bloody.
Just two.....there really should be:
BR-DVD
BR+DVD
BR+RAM
BR-RAM
BR+RW
BR-RW
etc.
Or how bout
BR/R
BR*R Let those other operators get a chance
I say keep the shit confusing. Whatever leads to the decline of the current, corrupt entertainment industry.
I don't know what some of you are thinking. Sure Blup-Ray has about 45-50GB of storage space. But you are COMPLETELY forgetting they are using MPEG-2. Which on a 1080i stream for good quality requires around 30-35Mbit/s of band width for decent quality video.
Where as HD-DVD is going to use H.264. They can get 1080i in 8-10Mb of bandwidth WITH 5.1 suorround.
So the HD-DVD requires 1/3rd of what blu-ray does.
So who cares that it has barely 2x the storage. When you do the math HD-DVD will have more room for video.
So NO more storage doesn't always mean it's better when your using a ancient video compression algorithm like MPEG-2.
And for you guys complaining about current MPEG-2 HD cable. Well those channels are around 10-15Mbit in bandwith. Know that the blu-ray isn't going to be running much higher on long length movies.
Lets also hope the people encoding these movies have a clue to use the ENTIRE disc. So we don't need "superbit" HD discs. It's just stupid that even today productions studios don't use the entire DVD sometimes...
#52: You make it sound as though Blu-ray is MPEG-2 only and HD-DVD is H.264 only, which is blatantly and utterly wrong. Blu-ray actually supports 3 formats - a) MPEG-2, b) MPEG-4 (H.264/AVC), and c) VC-1, which is based on Microsoft's WM9 codec. These are exactly the same 3 supported formats as HD-DVD.
I'm sure they never planned on using MPEG-2 for 1080i content when there are obviously other superior compression methods. That would be, as the French say, stupid. Storage matters.
I for one won't buy either because both will be obsolete in 2 years when Holographic disks become affordable... they are way better than both of these and dont seem to be that much further off... screw tosh and sony acting like little children. I agree completely with #43 on the ps3 as well... sony is full of bunk.
What do you think - Blockbuster is still going to be around? How would you like to get your media/entertainment? Why waste time going to your local rental store? In the future, I see with just a few clicks, media would be obtain (legally) and ready to be consumed at your leisure.
"I don't know what some of you are thinking. Sure Blup-Ray has about 45-50GB of storage space. But you are COMPLETELY forgetting they are using MPEG-2."
Blu-ray support for h.264 was there from the start.
Bluray is the better format of the two. I'd prefer the holographic discs, but they won't be available soon enough to realistically compete just yet, despite what some ppl think. The consortium behind bluray (no, it is not a Sony-only creation like the retard console fanboys above are playing at) already has formidable backing for bluray and the soon to arrive PS3 ensures that countless millions will have a bluray player in the next couple of years. HD-DVD has already seen troubling events in its own camp and it isn't looking good for them as the days go by.
#54
They stated they were going to use MPEG-2 for HD content to start. Unless they have since otherwise changed their stance.
Sure you can stick any encoded format on any digital device. And playback will work as long as they have the codecs on it. Technically it has suport for codecs not even thought of yet..
If they do intend to use a newer codec in the *HD hardware* I will be happy. But that isn't what I have been hearing/reading... (saying they can support it doesn't mean they'll use it)
All current blu-ray hardware is using MPEG-2.
#57 ya if they use it my post is pointless and to be ignored. I agree with everyone who has followed up on my post.
I however will wait and see what the encoded format on the disc will be. Stuff in japan now is MPEG-2.
I hear people keep saying that the PS3 will have a huge impact on the 'format war'. They reason that the PS2 had such a big impact on the adoption of standard DVD and it will be the same with the PS3. But I don't see the two issues as being direct parallels.
What was DVD competing with ? VHS ? No. VHS was the aging entrenched standard, it had to be replaced eventually...everyone knew that. I submit DVD wasn't really COMPETING with anything at all (VCD quality was obviously inferior, and Laser discs are huge so I don't think they ever put up much of a fight against DVD). It had dynamic playback (not sequential), menus, obviously superior picture quality, obviously superior sound quality (5.1 in your home), the media was physicaly smaller.
It was CLEARLY better than any other current offering.
So, with nothing else in sight everyone made their plans to eventually upgrade to DVD. These plans ranged from 'as soon as it comes out' to 'as soon as I get around to it'. But all the same, everyone was going for DVD. All the PS2 did was accelerate this process.
As one poster already mentioned, to get people to upgrade you need more than to just be a little better than what's already out. You need new features. DVD had that in spades over VHS (as outlined above). HD-DVD and BR however are not really all that distinct from standard DVD, let alone each other. At least not to the casual consumer that makes up the majority of the market...
Personally, I think if either format is to 'win' it's only by taking losses in order to gain market share. Despite what my many detractors say, I don't see any TECHNICAL reason why a single machine that plays standard DVD and HD-DVD or BR cannot be made.
'OH YOU IDIOT!!!! THE LASERS ARE TOTALLY INCOMPATIBLE!!! IT'S IMPOSSIBLE I TELL YOU IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!'
Why ?
Why do people think a multi-laser system is so fantastical ? I mean how much does a standard DVD player cost (on the low end) ? $30 - $40 ? So even if you have to create a 'Go!Video' style dual deck machine in order to have a 'Backwards Compatible Next Gen DVD player' it shouldn't cost any more than $30 to $40 more than a non-backwards compatible unit would. Probably not even that much. Plus, that's puting the MINIMUM design effort into it, I think the manufacturers would be clever enough to fit both lasers into a single drive, even if one is on the top and the other is on the bottom.
THIS is what I think would sway people over to buying stand alone units. Because this would mean that their standard DVD investment would not go down the tubes and they would still have the convenience of only having to own 1 machine. THAT IMHO would get the attention of your average non-geek concumer. Currently NEITHER HD-DVD nor BluRay (or the people backing them) have made this offer/promise.
I mean if one of these formats become standard it's inevitable anyway. Once the components become cheap enough our taiwanese and chinese friends will start churning out low cost (if low quality) players just as I've described. The big boys would just be wise to take an initial loss and do it first so that the standard that the far east pirates are copying is THEIRS (respectively), and then derive their profits from content sales (which is where the profits are anyway).
Well, another monumentally long post from me. Sorry, I'm verbose and long winded. Here's the short version.
Posted Aug 23, 2005, 1:51 PM ET by OddManOut
I still think we should just go with VMD until holographic technology matures.
Slight amendment. I am now vaguely remembering some ka-fuffle over DIVX vs. DVD (the original DIVX mind you), so I guess DVD had to put up a little bit of a scrap. But I don't think the PS2 decided that battle any more than it did concerning VCD, Laserdisc, or Digital video tape for that matter...).
I could be wrong though. And if I am, a little remidial history (with civility if possible) would be welcome...
Well, #61, DVHS was the only real competition for DVD, quality wise. It still is the first consumer HD format, although it has only had limited commercial releases on the format and has basically dropped out of sight in the last year. DIVX was never a real competitor for DVD, as it was simply a variant on it. DIVX player were supposed to play both DVDs and DIVX media. DIVX copy protection was the only way some of the major studio agreed to release their libraries on a digital format at all (I think Fox and Disney went this way until the format died).
The real issue with the new HD formats is that HD-DVD costs less to implement, as it can use today's manufacturing facilities with less changes than Blu-Ray requires. This is because the HD-DVD plastic layer the laser reads through is .6nm, same as a current DVD, while Blu-Ray is .1nm (as I recall). This makes it so that the laser gets diffused less when reading BD media, as it has to pass thru less plastic, but is more vulnerable to damage.
Anyway, TDK has developed a coating that is currently being implemented to make optical discs scratch and dirt proof. The Blu-Ray developers have implemented the coating, called Durabis, to make the Blu-Ray format caddy-less, so it would be as convenient to use as HD-DVD.
What I want to know is that last week there were announcements that considerably less in the way of HD-DVD movies would be released by year's end, unlike originally planned. Plus only one company would be releasing HD-DVD players, unlike the huge rollout originally planned. It seems to me to be a no-brainer that Blu-Ray seems to be the way to go. I mean, considering Sony has been rolling out Blue Laser based products for over a year now I think the technology appear to be slightly more mature. Plus I like the higher capacity per layer on the Blu-Ray format.
I really dislike Sony with their inflated pricing and some really consumer unfriendly products (believe me a dying PS2 and crappy home and auto radios can do that)but I think they have got the winner here.
i don't think ps2 made the dvd. it's more like the $99 DVD Player. and it eventually went so low, banks were giving them away.
If BR or HDDVD can go to $99, then they can own the market. otherwise I think people will be satisfied with DVD upconvert.
Sounds good to me. Microsoft is behind HD-DVD, providing their god-awful video codec to the format. Go Blu-ray!
HD-DVD and BD will use all of the same codecs when they ship - the current BD units out in Japan are not representative of the final BD spec. Both will do MPEG2, MPEG4 AVC/H.264, and VC-1. Both will use AACS for DRM - with BD adding a ROM Mark and BD+ to allow for DRM updates if AACS is cracked. (That's why Fox, and others, went with BD.) BD machines will also all support Java 2 ME for interactive content.
BD has more support form the consumer electronics industry, more support from the music industry, and about the same support from the film industry as HD-DVD.
But it looks like HD-DVD is faltering a bit - some of the previously announced fall release plans have been scaled back. It seems like some of the studios are re-thinking their HD-DVD support, since they were playing chicken and no one blinked. Now the HD-DVD camp is staring down a format war with more troops on the other side - and the other side has a BIG gun in the form of of the PS3. Plus a more secure DRM system has got to look tempting now that it is announced.
BD is a superior format, hands down. HD-DVD is the *end* of a products life cycle, pushing DVD to the limit. BD is the *start* of a new lifecycle, with a LOT of headroom for growth. Also, hybrid discs are superior in BD. With BD you can have BD and DVD content on *one side* of the disc, the BD content is 'over' the DVD content. With HD-DVD you need a dual-sided disc - HD-DVD on one side, DVD on the other. Dual sider discs have never been popular with either studios (due to higher failure rates and the inability to print labels on the discs) and consumers (due to the lack of labels and confusion over which side is what). It is possible to do a single sided hybrid HD-DVD - but that's one layer of HD-DVD on one layer of DVD, worthless to studios.
The only real objection to BD is that it currently costs more than HD-DVD to press. But they're already showing how they will be bringing the prices down, and the format advantages have been worth it to a number of vendors.
I hate to see a format war, but in the end I'm confident BD will be the dominant format. Hybrid players may emerge, but if Fox can do all-singing, all-dancing discs with Java content, and more extras, and Universal can't with HD-DVD, it is going to be a competitive issue for them.
I think people give the 'DVD' branding too much weight. It certainly is valuable, but a marketing blitz for Blu-ray, especially one which hammers home the point of 'Blu-ray is superior to DVD' would work, and it could have the bonus of making people think BD is also better than HD-DVD, since that's 'DVD' too.
And, in the end, really - PS3. How is Toshiba going to compete with that? Toshiba and NEC are up against pretty much *everyone else* in the industry, plus Dell, HP, and Apple (all BD backers - the two largest PC vendors in the world, and the only Mac vendor, of course). It is a hugely lopsided battle.