W32.Wullik.B@mm worm burrows into shipping Zen Neeon

Looks like somebody turned off the virus scanner at the Creative production plant—it would appear that about 3,700 Japanese 5GB Zen Neeons shipped since July might have possibly been packing a W32.Wullik.B@mm payload. Of course, if you don't go running conspicuous applications found on your device and have some cursory virus scanning going on you'll probably be ok just to wipe the damned thing out of box, but somehow we have a feeling there'll be an unfortunate few for whom this won't be too fond an experience.

[Via Engadget Japanese]

[Billy @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

What retard would do something like that, and HOW would it get into the plant, let alone the Zens.

[JK @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

I guess that's what you get for buying cheap mp3 players. Try getting an iPod next time. They've actually got some quality control. You get what you pay for.

[Zack @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

#2, yeah, cause I love having to use proprietary Apple software just to interface with the stupid thing. Not to mention having to constantly reformat it because the menu button keeps locking up. Of course, if I only used iTunes to access my iPod, I'd lose my music every time I had to do that...

[Matt @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

You get what you pay for witha an iPod? Tell that to the thousands who participated in the battery lawsuit.

iPods suck and are over rated.

[Matt @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

You get what you pay for witha an iPod? Tell that to the thousands who participated in the battery lawsuit.

iPods suck and are over rated.

[Jeff @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

"iPods suck and are over rated."

Let the games begin!

[wickedawesome @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

I didn't get any viruses with my iPod. And not just because it's running linux. So let's not start a long flame thread about who can afford the real deal and who's willing to settle for crap.

[PG @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

apple ipods all ship virus free!

[The Jeremy @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Maybe Creative should use Apple Macintoshes in their offices. That way the Zens wouldn't get infected with worms. D'oh, the irony!

[Arturo @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

creative was going down in mp3 sales....with this, i dont know what will be left!XD

[Brad @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Now that's some good f'n marketing!

[aptmunich @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

It's all part of a viral marketing campaign...
haha - get it get it?

[insider @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

apple ipods all ship feature-free!

[WiseOne @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

You're all such idiots...why does everything here have to boil down to a mac/pc war?

sure pc's have more viruses....but I'd rather shoot at a bigger target and not miss, rather than concentrate on hitting a pinprick.

Mac's do not have "many" viruses because few programmers care about them. When Apple turn intel and the OS is no longer hardware-bound, expect this to change....drastically.

Where this discussion should be going is all round quality control...for example how simple things like a virus scan get missed out on at huge companies like creative.

If my company allowed themselves to release one piece of software with an virus embedded in the file...I can already see the noise that'd make for us...oh god

[hydrogen_wv @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Maybe we should all just start using Cassette players again....?

[Arthur Barnhouse @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

"You're all such idiots...why does everything here have to boil down to a mac/pc war? "

That isn't exactly what this is about. Creative, not too long ago, declared a holy war against the iPod. Creative essentially created an artifical dichotomy (Zen v. iPod), wherein you had to like one and hate the other. It didn't help that Apple fans are already pretty uptight about their equipment anyway. So now whenever a piece of iPod or Creative news comes up, a flame war starts.

[Joel @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

The battery lawsuit was a f%$^ing joke.

Have you ever heard of any rechargeable battery that DOESN'T wear out over time?

No?

Neither have all the scientists at NASA.

All batteries wear out. Why Apple is expected to live up to a standard that is, at this point a SCIENTIFIC IMPOSSIBILITY, is a mystery to me.

You can replace an iPod battery yourself for $25. The only tool required is a thin piece of plastic, like a guitar pick, which comes in the many available battery replacement kits.

I don't know what dream world you kiddies live in where you accept that every other battery wears out--car batteries, electric shaver batteries, cell/wireless phone batteries, even the batteries in the International Space Station have had to be replaced--yet this is somehow unacceptable in an iPod.

[Ryan Block @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Keep it on topic, people, or we'll shut down comments.

[Billy Blanks, Master of Tae Bo @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

OMG my iPod just totally installed a virus on me PC and now I run Mac OS on it!

[tino @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

I don't understand how can a hardware company ship its products with virus on it. It doesn't make any sense. Can anybody explain this to me?

Besides the "Apple Ninja" theory, that is.

[Benson Leung @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

"sure pc's have more viruses....but I'd rather shoot at a bigger target and not miss, rather than concentrate on hitting a pinprick.

Mac's do not have "many" viruses because few programmers care about them. When Apple turn intel and the OS is no longer hardware-bound, expect this to change....drastically."

This is the classic security-through-obscurity argument, and to a great degree, it's a logical fallacy. In other words, you're wrong.

First of all, the majority of viruses exploit Operating System vulnerabilities... things like Microsoft leaving huge remote holes in Windows, and allowing applications to be installed and executed remotely because of their lousy security... These are independent of the hardware...

Buffer overflows, on the other hand, are related to hardware, but again, also are related to the software..

Secondly, by saying that Mac OS X and Windows are the same security wise and just Windows is more popular, completely ignores the fact that Mac OS X was simply designed better than Windows from the start. Simple stuff like the default user account on the Mac has limited ability to do damage to the system, and a password is mandatory on all user accounts... and how software that wants to change something on the system prompts a security login query... you have to enter your password to do updates to the OS for example... all this Windows lacks... due in big part because the Mac is based on UNIX and isn't completely proprietary like Windows.

It's speculation whether or not the Mac would do as badly as Windows if the roles were reversed, but I can point to these areas where the Mac is just a smarter way to handle security on a desktop OS, and how Microsoft has a long way to go to catch up.

And furthermore, the Mac isn't this small minority... there are millions of Mac OS X users out there on the internet with varying degrees of firewall security... a much bigger aspect to the security picture with Mac than the fact that it's not popular is simply that it's harder to find security vulnerabilities to exploit on the mac. Period.

[Benson Leung @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

One more thing... you put the word "many" in quotes... Try "Zero."

Zero Mac OS X viruses in the wild. Compare that to Windows.

[g @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

I've never heard so many people get in a tizzy over the iPod than on Engadget. It's hilarious to hear what these people whine about. If you are so happy with your MP3 player, then why do you even comment on the iPod? Just accept the fact that yours is better (if you really think that) and move on!

[NoMac @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

"Zero Mac OS X viruses in the wild. Compare that to Windows."

Zero Macs on the internet, in offices, in homes. Compare THAT to Windows.

[NoMac @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

"Zero Mac OS X viruses in the wild. Compare that to Windows."

Zero Macs on the internet, in offices, in homes. Compare THAT to Windows.

[Benson Leung @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Getting back to topic... yeah, really Creative's IT department really is at fault for something like this... but it's really way too easy for something like that to slip into a company's intranet.

An employee goes off on a busines trip, connects to god knows what kind of network with no protection and brings back a worm... it's really scary, and come to think of it i'm not sure how much my company does in that area.

[Benson Leung @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

"Zero Macs on the internet, in offices, in homes. Compare THAT to Windows."

My post was literal. The number of mac os x viruses is literally 0.

Yours is just sarcastic. I can show you how the installed base of Mac across all market segments is definitely growing faster compared to other PC makers and as a whole is approaching 10% (installed base, not market share)... and remind you that Apple is not insignificant... they are still a Top 5 computer manufacturer for example... but you are a child.

[NoMac @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Okay Benson (Wasn't that the name of a butler or something?)
Anyways, I've been using macs for a long time. And in doing so have come to realize that the Mac faithful are ugly people (not physically but mentally) You just cant take a joke. Its ALWAYS okay for a Machead to piss on a PC user, but a PC user saying anything negative about you or anything Mac, is Taboo..Get over it, I use Macs and PC's (Have done so for a long time) Macs are great for some things, PC's are great for others. Use what you want and quite spewing your useless dribble all over everyone that doesnt have a Mac at their disposal. I enjoy using both. But most of the time its Windows. The mac just doesnt have the functionality I'm looking for in all of my day to day tasks. If you want to go statistical on everyone, fine. The way I see it is Windows has 0 Viruses as well as long as you patch and use a firewall. Period. I can show YOU that that is true and viruses are for lamers who cant figure out how simple it is to protect a system.(I've been running firewalls and patching systems for 8 years without a single virus ever getting through, all without virus scanners) If people are that stupid..get off the internet and if they cant do that, Get an expensive Etch-O-Sketch better known as a Mac.

PS: The article was about "W32.Wullik.B@mm worm burrows into shipping Zen Neeon"

What do Macs have to do with that? Why do you even care? If you want to sell Macs, work at an apple store since your such a "genius". Your bliss is in using your virus and problem free (LOL) Mac...So whats ur point/problem?

[NoMac @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Getting back on the topic. This was quite possibly a disgruntled employee who got his hands on the production image and copied an infected file to it.

Who knows? Who cares. Im happy with my Zen Micro.

[The Jeremy @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Dr. Theopolis - with his accomplice Twiki - had the virus installed on the Creative Zens in retaliation for certain Zen models looking like the previously mentioned Theopolis yet Creative has not cut a check for those rights to the aggrieved A.I. scientist of the 25th Century.

[I_hate_macs @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Some fat ass lamer who works in creatives paper shuffling department probably got her 100th nice/funny/cute/sad "FW:" of the day which happened to carry the worm. She probably also has tons of cute adware installed on her computer like smiley face fun, bonzi buddy, comet cursors and webshots and has no idea why her computer is so slow.

I hate idiots.

[Benson Leung @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

I have no problem... I can secure my network and my PC just as well as you can with a firewall, and the usual countermeasures... i know all about that, so you don't need to tell me. As a matter of fact I'm an Intel employee actually, so I don't work for Apple, sorry.

But I'm glad you're able to belittle people who aren't as savvy as your or i and catch viruses. It's so great to look down on them like retards. I'm happy that you're an elitist. I'm happy that you're happy.

[I Hate Macs @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Well you sure don't SOUND very happy about it! ;-)

You work for intel? W00T!

[Kreamy @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

what the HELL is wrong with you people?

If you like iPods then good for you - completely irrelevant. You are NOT apple's marketing division, you do not have to do them any favors by spreading the word that "iPods pwn j00 noob PeeCee uzerz LoL!"

I like mac. I like windows. It just happens to be that the mac zealots hate windows because they're just too stupid to use it correctly. Now quit your whining and get back on topic. No one is forcing you to buy a Zen neeon and I certainly don't see anyone terrorising you into using "crappy PeeCee's LoL!". Shut up.

[Mainyehc @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Mr. Kreamy... Your intention of calming down all the rabid zealots out there was nice and all, but you utterly failed when you wrote that "It just happens to be that the mac zealots hate windows because they're just too stupid to use it correctly."...

I, for one, am a "Mac Zealot�" since Dec. 2003, and I don't consider myself stupid. I've used Jaguar, Panther, and now, Tiger. And I have also used Windows since 1992 (version 3.1... I was 6 years old by then)... I had lots of fun tinkering with Windows, but I also got some serious headaches, and most of them WERE NOT virus related. In fact, throughout all those years I was only infected *literally* a handful of times, and mostly by harmless trojans... I never patched my systems, and I never ran a firewall (then again, I never used 2000 or XP on my home computer, so I never got those infamous blaster and sasser worms). But I'm not stupid, thank you very much. I was just *misinformed*, but not to the point of taking candy from strangers, so I never got any spyware or adware anyway.

So WHY do I hate Windows so much? Because it IS a bad product overall, period. It has some serious design flaws, at least, unacceptable flaws if you take into account that Microsoft is one of the richest companies in the world. I'm not talking about performance, or versatility, or 3rd party apps you can only run on one or the other platform. I'm talking about the GUI, the way the OS talks to (or should I say "shouts at"?) you, the hardware incompatibilities, every single detail, glitch or "feature" that can cause you some form of stress when you're running Windows. Sure, you could argue in general terms that Mac OS X has those too, and I can assure you that it definitely has. I got Kernel Panics when using *defective* RAM. The Brushed Metal vs. Aqua is a blatant aesthetic (not functional, fortunately) GUI inconsistency. Etc, etc, etc... But most of the annoyances present in OS X, besides being rare when compared to those found in Windows, are much less prone to cause stress to the user (or even damage the system itself)... Your mileage may vary, but almost 2 years using OS X have been much easier on me so far than 3 months running 98 or 2000... Now compare that to running 3.1, 95 and 98 throughout 9 (!) years... Are viruses a problem to me? No. Windows itself is.

Now, to get on topic: the same goes for the iPod. I've used Sony products for years, like Walkmans, MD-Walkmans, Hi-Fi stereos and TVs. None of them is/was as easy or nice to use as an Apple product. The same goes for most of the iPod's competitors. I've tried many players from Creative, Phillips, Olympus, Sony, Archos, Thomson, etc, and sorry folks, they ARE clunky. 3 minutes of trying to find my way around in some of those were more stressing and difficult than even having to reformat my 3G iPod twice in one week (it's running just fine now... and it still is the best player I've ever owned!). Not that I'm so stupid I can't even RTFM, but it just so happens that I DON'T want to have to do that! (and besides, I've tried those players in stores, so no "FM" for me... And I won't even go as far as comparing iTunes with WMP).

But this is just MHO, so I guess you should do the same I did if you have the chance: before actually flaming someone (or call them stupid, now you tell me what is worse), try doing these two things:
1) Search the market (and the web, but try the "real thing" instead of just reading reviews), keep updated, investigate, and most importantly, LEARN stuff...
2) Contact with real people... I know a lot of intelligent Windows users who hate it just as much as I do now, even without trying or using a Mac, unlike me... (I also know a few who don't care about it or even have fun using it, but those are a minority). Not to say I'm very sociable or anything, but if you think Mac Zealots are the only ones who hate Windows, you either know a lot of them and just a few Windows users, or you're hangin' around with too many geeks who looove WIndows ;)

Now, don't take this personally, I'm joking... I just think it's intrinsically wrong to call people stupid because of their choices or opinions, which by the way may be informed and heavily based on personal experience...

[Dax @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

"iPods suck and are over rated."
"Creative Zen neeon = no bass and no power's MP3 player"
thats why I prefer Sony Network Walkman......

[neutral @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

before we go into all these hooha... is this news confirmed? i can't read japanese.. nor the messed up the translation

[Chadwick Ferguson @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

I love my iPod mini. I loaded linux on it so I dont have to use apple's itunes. I only ever do this though when I interface with linux. I have a nice little shell script that can add my songs to the iTunesDB on the ipod and rip them back to linux and back and forth again. I do this all on the ipod. It really isnt proprietary, see. You know GLMatrix that matrix-esque screen saver? yeah my ipod runs that. And a 3d model program. OH and wait also it plays movies too, they suck with just the black and white but hey, it plays them. Quite well too. Like I said before, I'm quite happy with my ipod mini.

[kraig @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Benson Leung

actually he's right. Go look into mac security holes. you'll notice something, there are almost as many vulnerabilities in macs as windows. they get patched, and mac users update, but windows vulnerability to patch time has hit less than 6 days because virus and worm writers target the masses since they make money off it, and most windows users don't update that often.

Same as a lot of website using horrible css because IE works and 90% of their customers use it, virus writers target the computers that are more likely to be out there. Once mac switches to intel and more people start using it (an assumption most people make due to the hopeful ability to install it on a regular x86 system, cracked or not) more viruses/worms will come out for it.

just because macosx is unix based doesn't mean it doesn't have holes. except for the core, macosx is mostly proprietary software, loosing the advantage unix based os's of many eyes looking for problems. The software on macs provide as many security holes as windows

Mainyehc

You are comparing running windows 3.1 and 98 to OSX??< how bout you try and use Windows XP and then you can talk. Mac OSX is great, its amazing. i use it daily at work. but comparing it to an old product doesn't fly. older mac os's look like crap compared to XP, so make a decent comparison.

Ipod battery lawsuit resulted in being able to buy the battery replacement for 25$'s, before, it was buy a new ipod every 18 months because its the same price.

This is bad QA on creatives part, but shouldn't affect any smart users out there. No company gets it right all the time, apple released the ipod with a battery that dies in way to short a time, creative missed a virus infected file and programmed some zen's with it. welcome to life. Things like this get fixed.

[vkkim @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

m$ windows: crappy, full of security holes, unstable, closed-source, everybody uses it and lots of programs, cheap and wide selection of hardware, okay UI
mac os x: pretty but bloated as hell, based on bsd but closed-source, proprietary and ridiculously expensive hardware, few programs, nobody uses it

linux: free, runs on EVERYTHING, open-source, completely customizable (or no customization if you want) with pretty graphics in kde, gnome, etc., fast, 1000s of packages in repositories, proven reliability in servers worldwide. a few hardware compatibility problems with obscure manufacturers.

when has it ever been a mac/pc debate? the logical choice is obvious. modern-day linux is years ahead of its competition. if only manufacturers opened up their hardware drivers...

[Flaming is our life @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

This night at Daddy's kitchen corner: "How to Flame?"

Take:
- 1 news article (*any* piece of tech news)
- 2 or more readers
- 1 Comments forum

Mix well and allow conversation last for a while and you get:
- Flame wars between Linux/Windows(/OSX).

[vkkim @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

@ "flaming is our life"

Thank you, Captain Obvious. Don't you feel all high and mighty.

[Benson Leung @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

kraig...

I'm not arguing that it's not the case that the attempts to exploit vulnerabilities on the Mac will increase as it gets more popular... that's common sense...

I'm disputing this point "The software on macs provide as many security holes as windows."

That's the fallacy. What do you base that on? On what grounds do you consider Mac OS X and Windows equal?

On the number of security updates? Sure Mac OS X has a lot of security updates to potential vulnerabilities, but you contradicted yourself...

"just because macosx is unix based doesn't mean it doesn't have holes. except for the core, macosx is mostly proprietary software, loosing the advantage unix based os's of many eyes looking for problems."

Yes... but if actually looked at what is fixed with every security update, close to all of them are based on fixes from the open source community for things like Apache, Kerberos, SSH... The open source community fixes them with updates to their open source software, and Apple pays it forward to all of the Mac OS X users out there... simple as that...

There are a few so called "proprietary" holes, which are of course Apple's fault...and they are fixed of course... but the Mac OS X security fixes that most people use to make their points about Mac OS X being the "same" as Windows are mostly Open Source fixes... whenever an open source project finds a vulnerability in something that Mac OS X incorporates, they'll fix it and Apple will do the same...

In other words... Mac OS X is more influenced by open source than you think....

[Marc @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Wow, I took that long for a Linux geek to plug in!! I'm impressed, you guys are loosing it...

Some people just fail to accept that Linux just is NOT ready for amss use and it is even more complicated to use than DOS for the average joe.

Macs: hmmm...P4 3ghz with 3 gigs of RAM, DVD burner double layer, Radeon X880, SATA 200gis HD: 2500$
MAC with equivalent power: 5000$...let me think a little about which is going to sell...MACs are furniture and expensive ones.
That too bad because any MAC OS is far superior than any Linux or Windows out there...if only Apple stopped marketing novelty and
started building AFFORDABLE machines up to par with PC power.

Windows: A big black hole of trouble with security flaws that should have not even got passed initial QA before release. Never was consumer ready and still isn't...just look at the number of spam we receive...now try to imagine the number of infected computers...you knew that spam mostly gets sent by spywares do you???

Creative: just is NOT ready for amss use and it is even more complicated to use than DOS for the average joe.

Macs: hmmm...P4 3ghz with 3 gigs of RAM, DVD burner double layer, Radeon X880, SATA 200gis HD: 2500$
MAC with equivalent power: 5000$...let me think a little about which is going to sell...MACs are furniture and expensive ones.
That too bad because any MAC OS is far superior than any Linux or Windows out there...if only Apple stopped marketing novelty and
started building AFFORDABLE machines up to par with PC power.

Windows: A big black hole of trouble with security flaws that should have not even got passed initial QA before release. Never was consumer ready and still isn't...just look at the number of spam we receive...now try to imagine the number of infected computers...you knew that spam mostly gets sent by spywares do you???

well...just the MS of sound cards and another big company that does not give a rats ass about its customers...the usual.

I nought an Irivier and I could not be happier, not the slightest problem, no DRM, no bulls*t, I just wish it was fully USB 2 compliant that is no problem to me, a monkey could us the Iriver software and unlike the Ipod it does not have any DRM so I can use my OWN cds and I can buy MP3s elsewhere than on Itunes.

[Mainyehc @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Kraig, you said:

"You are comparing running windows 3.1 and 98 to OSX??< how bout you try and use Windows XP and then you can talk. Mac OSX is great, its amazing. i use it daily at work. but comparing it to an old product doesn't fly. older mac os's look like crap compared to XP, so make a decent comparison."

Maybe you failed to notice one thing I said:

"I'm not talking about performance, or versatility, or 3rd party apps you can only run on one or the other platform. I'm talking about the GUI, the way the OS talks to (or should I say "shouts at"?) you, the hardware incompatibilities, every single detail, glitch or "feature" that can cause you some form of stress when you're running Windows."

And these are absolutely intemporal... Sure, Mac OS Classic sucked big time in many areas. Yes, I acknowledge it *was* crap. But I sometimes play around with OS 9 on some old beige G3's that are there in my Uni, and even though it isn't nearly as good as Panther or even Jaguar (albeit its GUI is a bit more consistent ;) ), it kicks 98's a$$ any day of the week... And yes, I use Windows XP almost daily, also on my Uni's PCs. Sure, they're public, not home PCs, but still, I can see that Microsoft got most of the details wrong. Not to mention that most of my friends are running XP, so...

Anyway, *detail-wise*, 3.1 sucked vs. System, 95-98 sucked vs. Mac OS, and 2000-XP just sucks vs. Mac OS X... I've tried them all, even *gasp* Me, and System 1.0 and 6.something under vMac, and... you get my point.

You know that even if Microsoft finally manages to outpace Apple and make a great, stable, secure OS (by design, and out of the box, btw), they'll probably get the details all wrong... The only thing I think Apple ever got wrong was the Dock, but the only people I seem to hear complaining about it are oldschool Mac OS Classic users...

Why am I so obsessed with the details? Because "God is in details", because "Form follows Function", blah blah blah... It may seem unimportant, but that's what distinguishes great products from crappy products. And Apple does a great job in doing the first kind. And the fact they use lower spec'ed components (think memory and graphics) to some extent, doesn't bother me much. If that's the only way I can afford a Mac, so be it. And even that is slowly changing... At least, I know they aren't cutting costs in software ;)

[Mr. Obliviously Obnoxious Star Trek Potato Chip Machine Computer User @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

I will attempt to point out where this disaster made landfall like Katrina flooding out Louisiana.

"
2. Posted Aug 29, 2005, 10:56 AM ET by JK
I guess that's what you get for buying cheap mp3 players. Try getting an iPod next time. They've actually got some quality control. You get what you pay for.
"

Wah wahh.. wahh wahh iPod this wah wahh Creative that wah waah iPod iPod wah wah I'm ignorant wah wah iPod Creative Derka Derka Jihad Blanket Statements Jihad Derka Derka iPod are better because they cost a lot and are made by Apple Star Trek Potato Chip Machine Computer Company and Creative makes cheap imitation sound cards and digital audio devices derka derka.

[matt @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Maybe someone who has a modern hdd based (non-ipod) player can tell me what *usually* comes preinstalled on the hdds?

I always assumed that they would just come with a blank FAT32 formatted disk or something? I guess you would hook the drives up somewhere along the line to check that the whole thing works, but you dont need a PC, let alone a networked windows machine to do that. Again I suppose they might use a windows machine with Creative's software on it to check it works before it goes into a box and gets shrink wrapped - but on a networked machine?! crazy.


Oh and just to feed the trolls...first ever virus on home computers was for a mac! For details of existing vulnerabilities in OSX, please visit http://www.securityfocus.com/ (where you can check all OSs...). If you want to see some Mac viruses in the wild please visit http://www.symantec.com/search/ and search for "Mac" with the "virus, worms" etc switch (you can also search all OSs).

After that please grow up. Unpatched Windows machines are as bad as Unpatched Macs, are as bad as Unpatched Linux machines, are as bad as any Unpatched machine. You can design for security, but in reality you are never going to plug every hole. When OSX has the amrket share of Windows, expect the tables to be reversed.

[James wilmington @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

Surely this argument isn't about whether an ipod or zen jobbie-thingy is better...its about the terrible security an international firm has in respect of its products. As 'Uncle Ben' rightly put "with great power, comes great responsibility". A virus infected image-file duplicated across thousands of zens, and therefore homes is absolutely unacceptable.

[matthew @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

'I nought an Irivier and I could not be happier, not the slightest problem, no DRM, no bulls*t, I just wish it was fully USB 2 compliant that is no problem to me, a monkey could us the Iriver software and unlike the Ipod it does not have any DRM so I can use my OWN cds and I can buy MP3s elsewhere than on Itunes.'

i simply love it when people launch extensive tirades that almost make sense until the last line. since *when* is an ipod not able to play songs ripped from your own CDs? in fact, EVERY music player on the market lets you play songs from your own CDs. the only lock-in with ipod is that you need to use itunes to put music ONTO it. yeah, i know, doesn't play WMA etc etc etc. guess what? lots of people don't want to be locked in to WMA for many reasons.

[J. Maxwell @ Dec 19th 2005 1:05AM]

"first ever virus on home computers was for a mac!"

This is wrong. First virus on home computers was ElkCloner in 1982; 2 years before the Macintosh was invented.