Hollywood + Windows Vista = 4eva
posted August 30th 2005 4:30PM
Between TPM support, integrated DRM in next-gen
optical drives and codecs (i.e. WMV HD/VC1), and, of course, our favorite,
PVP-OPM, Microsoft seems to be pulling out all the
stops when it comes to locking down their next version of Windows. And for good reason too—assuaging the
copyright-enforcement concerns of the Hollywood paranoiacs studios means big money for a company at the hilt of
The Battle For The Livingroom. According to Cnet, apparently late versions of the Vista beta will begin to feature
Windows Media playback sandboxing on the PVP end, wherein media playback data will be locked completely away from other
applications and plugins, making it all the more difficult demux, move, or otherwise transcode your content. Microsoft
is even putting into place the necessary countermeasures to aid and abet the RIAA in distributing highly copy-protected
CDs. We're not entirely sure how effective all these countermeasures are going to be by the time Vista hits the
streets, but we can definitely say it's about time the consumers let their dollars did the talking when it comes to
fair use.
[Thanks, Uy Tran]
I was really considering making this my first legally owned version of Windows. GUESS NOT! Apple (or Linux) here I come!!!
Yeah, I think I'll stick with XP Pro, thanks.
They screwed themselves by releasing XP64.
I have NO reason to use Vista, especially since its become Windows DRM Edition.
Maybe less time on all that and we could have WinFS huh bill?
Wow, that's one OS that I'll never ever run.
this will come back to haunt M$. They'll lock down media & the operating system & what not, but when that crap doesn't sell & the new windows doesn't sell because people are afraid of this DRM, hollywood/riaa will back down & realize that if they just let people do what they want, music still sells. Then the masses who bought vista are left w/ a junk OS w/ all the DRM in the world... sweet.
....for the same reasons that companies and some individuals still hold on to Windows 2000..... we dont NEED to upgrade especially when our rights to freely utilize media in a reasonable and sane manner is being compromised in the name of a Taliban interpretation of Copyright law. Windows Vista DRM + $1Billion/week wars = Goodbye Superpower Status, hello dumping ground of Chinese new superpower goods (huh?) ;)
even if we NEED to upgrade to Vista, we can always fall back onto XP for all our copyright-infringement needs, such as copying the CD that I paid for onto the iPod that I paid for, or converting the DVD that I paid for into mp3 audio to listen to on my iPod.
2nd bit: while M$ and friends still rely on Old World tactics to lock down content, Google marches on to create the mythical Google OS for the 21st century... the conglomeration of free (albeit ad supported) applets that supplant Windows as the 'point of first contact'... the Net OS as initially envisioned by Sun and other stalwarts...
V irus
I nfections
S pyware
T rojans
A ttacks
Microsoft's seemingly boundless enthusiasm for all things constrictive (Trusted Computing in particular) is the reason I switched to the Mac. The Mac may be more closed in the sense of hardware choice, but I'll take decreased choice over decreased freedom every time.
The age of OS X will soon be upon us!
I'll wait for it to be totally hacked, thank you very much.
soooo what's stopping me from having a dual boot with linux or XPpro to playback files the way I want them?
Hell... what's stopping me from running one of those OSes on VMware and blowing the DRM out of the water?
CANT WAIT FOR "WindowsVista LowCaloriesEdition[ha>
CANT WAIT FOR "WindowsVista LowCaloriesEdition[haxorleague].torrent" hahaha
Hmmm...
People say this will haunt MS. Maybe so, but I think we pocket hackers/pirates/transcoding maniacs are probably in the slight minority. If Dell and other OEM's start shipping Vista equipt system to the vulgar proletariat masses, it'll get entrenched, MS will make their money and all will be well...
Seemingly... >:)
But as people have mentioned, those of us who like to fiddle with our media will stick with what we've got (2K, XP Pro/64) for a while, Vista doesn't sound too apealing with nearly ALL it's really revolutionary features on the chopping block. And when we can no longer hold back...we'll just dual boot...or keep our old systems for a generation and do our media manipulation on them (like us hard core geeks don't ALREADY have multiple systems).
Ultimately though, this could and probably will cause people to start THINKING about OS X and Linux. I know lots of 'non-techie' people LOVE being able to rip their own MP3s and copy pressed CDs. If they spend $600 to $1500 on a new machine only to discover that it won't even do what their OLD one did, yeah, that could lose MS a few customers down the line...
The question is just how far and how many people this will push away from MS. I doubt business will care much...but who knows how far the DRM is going to go...MS could end up pissing virtually EVERYONE in the end.
It will be interesting to watch...especially if Vista DOES turn out to be andother 'Windows ME'...
The same cattle that bought XP despite its oppressive copy protection will buy Vista despite its even more oppressive copy protection.
The consumer has no will. XP proved it, and MS is banking on it.
Chris has a point. Many many people will still buy Vista and complain after the fact when things don't work like they should.
I for one won't be upgrading to it. I'll most likely switch to a Mac to run commerical apps that can't run via Codeweavers Crossover plugin on linux.
Microsoft has the money to backup its craptacular Vista OS, my friends. Don't expect the Microsoft Empire to fall anytime soon.
Chris K is right, the consumer has no will, and also doesn't have a clue. I'll stick with my powerbook and my old XP machine.
Who's with the Anti-Vista faction?
Did any of you read the actual article?
Hollywood studios didn't get all the protections they wanted in Vista, and record labels have even seen some of their key concerns about copy-protecting CDs left unaddressed.
Although ordinary MP3 files and DVDs will play without any difference...
It isn't your precious MP3s and iPods that will be affected, it will be your HD sources that are already going to be heavily protected. Just look up the measures that are going into BluRay and HD-DVD. The playback software will have to be compliant in order to work with these new protection schemes. It isn't Microsoft's fault, and I be that when HD-DVD playback software starts shipping for XP it will be just as protected as Vista will come out of the box.
Windows is the OPM of the masses.
#13 -- the thing stopping you from running a dual boot is the fact that MS and the big media companies are all in on this together... so you can boot to linux but you wont be able to play that new CD/Game/Movie you just bought on your computer -because it lacks the DRM. They simply wont let it work on non-DRM stuff and then you have to get on board.
THIS is the theory anyway of how they see it working... it might take a long time for them to get there but rest assured... they will never stop trying.
And I love how many people say they'll just dual-boot XP or keep XP on their machines to avoid this. When XP first came out everyone was up in arms about the activation scheme and they were all going to stick with 98 or 2000 and eventually moved to XP. The same will be done with Vista.
Plus, all of these features may not make it to the final product, aka Palladium
Some of us moved to XP when it was hacked, and a viable option as an operating system.
Looks like I'll have to stick with Vista Beta 1 for a while then...
Chris has a grreat point, but look at me and most of the 99% posters in here today. We are the only ones that are concerned about Vista, but at the same time, the herd (the public) does not care. It is only the die hard computer hacks and geeks (I am one of them) and so I would like to try it out, just for grins. You can always have 10 other options!
Asta la VISTA baby!
I'm just glad dvdjon is still alive. dvdjon will save us all.
what about dvdb, the true savior?
"When XP first came out everyone was up in arms about the activation scheme and they were all going to stick with 98 or 2000 and eventually moved to XP."
Yeah, because WPA didn't exactly work as well as MS wanted it to, if you know what I mean. My copies of Windows are all legal and I still disabled WPA on my machines because I upgrade my hardware fairly often. (And I did wait to upgrade my OS until I could turn off WPA.)
If these new initiatives turn out to "not work" either, then I've got no problem upgrading to Vista. The question is how successful MS is going to be in locking things down. If they are as "successful" (as in "not") as they were with XP, then maybe it'll be worth an upgrade for the other improvements. But if they really get it "right" this time, as in truly walling things off from everybody, then screw it. I'll stick with XP or Linux. I've been running Linux on a dual boot for years now preparing for this day, so there wouldn't be any learning curve for me in doing that.
Regardless of what makes in in this version, the larger issue is that the door is being opened and not many people are do anything to close it. It might be that HD-DVD today, but tomorrow you might not be able to even back up a simple CD just in case you scratch the hell out of it while its in the car. The recording industry wants it that way, why should anyone kid themselves. Congress said we have the right to fair use, but we seem to be letting the RI step all over that anyway. Its not just MS, it's everyone that leans on them. It will be necessary to stop buying the protected products as well, unless they provide fair means to use and preserve the products. Hey, if they want to ship me a free new copy of my media anytime mine is damaged forever after I purchase it, then maybe i'm ok with not being able to copy it.
"Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
~Benjamin Franklin
I'll just stick with XP Pro - it's done a damn good job as my OS since I got it.
Hey, Mark Paterson, Astalavista is a great site. Not that I'm saying you should do that, or anything, or.... yeah, back on topic,
I have a Beta of Longhorn (screw this Vista crap, Longhorn is a cooler name) and so far, it seems like it will be a good thing for the average user. The install is much more logical and simple for the average user, and the eye candy will please people. And just remember, this talk of DRM is just talk. There is always a way around them, and people will find them quickly. I personally am looking forward to it (once they release everything they promised with it) because it will be the first OS actually designed for 64 bit computing.
Okay, let the flames begin.
Ok, after 30+ posts and not one good word for vista let me be the first:
I want Vista and DRM. No really. I will still be able to use bit torrent and play unprotected mp3's all I want. No harm there.
However, with the DRM I have the hope of making copies of my HD-DVDs. I can store them on my hard drive and stream them to my x360 or any other device that has DRM 10. I can't legally do that today. Without DRM there would be no legal way to do this.
No one will admit it, but I bet most people are scared of DRM because they don't want their access to illegal mp3's to stop. I don't even think that is an issue though. No one is saying they will kill off BT or P2P. No one is saying that you can't rip your CD's and transfer them to your ipod.
If your arguing that your ipod use will be affected by Vista then you're spreading FUD!
I think one important thing you're all forgetting about hacking Vista... it calls home. Balmer could not have been more happy when he announced this important customer service feature that kept a running log of your HD and activity. Without an option to turn it off. Except, of course, disconnect. Vista has taken so long because they're covering all their bases. I suspect this will be a big switch from MS. And deservedly so.
And it is extremely true the masses will not know enough to read ahead and will only slightly complain when it's too late.
#35, I bet you follow the speed limit when you drive, too
sorry, building DRM into devices which overrides consumer rights granted by US law should be an illegal act in and of itself. Who made MS judge, jury, and executioner?
Mention of hacking Vista is perhaps a tiny bit optimistic. While it is eventually inevitable, history has proved that, the rediculous amounts of money being spent on all these technologies are going to take an enormous amount of effort by the hacking community to bypass. And alot of the is stuff is hardware too, so until that hardware is in our PC we have no idea how easy or hard it will be to get around. And for this to truly work, the protected materials will have to require TPM and PVP-OPM to run. So it will require a huge amount of work just to get this stuff running on older OSs. A dual-boot setup will not be the panacea for this next generation of fair use prevention.
Like #37 points out, in theory this crap should be illegal. Instead Microsoft proudly states exactly what it will do regardless of the consumer rights being steamrolled.
#31 Brian.
I totally understand the need and desire to make copies of cd's for backup reasons, but expecting any organisation "to ship me a free new copy of my media anytime mine is damaged forever after I purchase it" is ridiculous.
If I told you that my textbook fell in a puddle and was ruined, you wouldn't suggest that I ask the publisher to send me a new copy for free now would you? Of course not, you'd probably tell me to be more careful with my property, and to go to the bookstore and BUY another copy.
Neither would you advise me (or anyone else) to photocopy every book I own, just in case I drop it in a puddle, accidentally burn it etc.
I'm not advocating DRM or anything, but I don't think copying a CD is an "essential liberty".
#37, please describe what consumer rights Vista is overriding for you. What a joke. Please stop spreading FUD.
This reminds me of the Mac/IBM (that is what we called it 20 years ago) argument I used to make with IBM (today called Windows or Wintel) users back in the day. Why would you want to use a business machine (IBM: Int'l Business Machines) for doing fun, creative things?
So what may end up happening is what we saw around 10 years ago, where PCs were used for corporate applications and Macs where used for creative and educational use. And now, use for all other things (music, movies, publishing, fun stuff). PC useres envied these features, they were built into Windows got more attention becuase it was on more computers. I mean, you really don't need to play and rip CDs and DVDs on your work computer unless your business is publishing media of some sort.
#35, Are you completely stupid? "I cant legally copy my HD-DVD's and stream them" What the hell kind of comment is that? On one hand you say you want to be legal and on the other, you assure people their P2P and BT will still be intact. Get your head out of your rear man. Screw legal! If you own a HD-DVD, DVD, CD, or whatever else and you want to copy it or stream it for your own pleasure.... JUST DO IT. √
Gee thanks MS for making my $1300 new DVI monitor obsolete already (no HDPC). just what every upgrader needs, to have to upgrade the one part of the system they may have no need to upgrade since it's been working for years, and new ones won't add any real advantages except DRM support.
When a country runs it's OS off of Windows, it is no longer a soveriengn entity anymore. Microsoft is.
Wait till dual-boot MacTel PC's are shipping in quantity, at prices competitive with Dell, with better features, design and ... oh yes ... Apple's OSX 10.5 Leapord thrown in along with the "iApps" ... anyone considering an "upgrade" to Vista will be foolhardy not to consider buying a MacTel as this will provide many more options in terms of getting around DRM. I predict Vista will help sell literally millions of MacTel's, just wait until the $499 MacTel mini hits the street along with $199 22" LCD panels and 4 gigs of ram for $125 ... you could run both OS's side-by-side.
Everyone wins in this scenario, except of course after people discover that OSX does everything they need and more, MS will begin going vertical and start its long slow slide into the freezing waters of technological obsoleteness.
Hmm.. No one forced XP onto me.. I'm the worlds last hold out... Running win98SE fine and dandy on my 1ghz laptop and XP2400 desktop (took a while to find that right motherboard..) and I use them for a combined 12-14 hours/day..Was faced with some limitations media-wise.. SO I bought a mac..AND LOVE IT.. OSX on INTEL=microsoft crying and I've been using microsoft (basic) since 1979. The arguement between mac vs. pc was never about OS.. it was about processor power.. now a moot point.. adios microslop..
No one will admit it, but I bet most people are scared of DRM because they don't want their access to illegal mp3's to stop. I don't even think that is an issue though. No one is saying they will kill off BT or P2P.
==
Eh, well, Bill is probably saying just that to the rights holders.
Are you serious? You don't think they want to wipe out Movie Downloading of P2p/bittorrent?
yeah I hate this micro$$$$oft. It's all about money.
I think I'll switch to apple.
Over there everything is cheap, itunes, software, and OS (only 1 every year)
yeah sure...
i'd like to thank microsoft for window vista. what it does for me is bring a world of better apps and less crashes...
yea, it's making me switch to linux.
Ive been thinking of giving Longhorn/Vista a try for quite some time now, as i wanted to see if M$ had finally got their act together. Well, it seems that with Vista they have taken another few steps back (not suprising). So, i think i will stick with Debian GNU/Linux which i have been running for almost 7 years now, and not even bother to look at Vista. Vista seems worthless to me. Not even worth pirating. There is no point in pirating something if it has to value or use anyway.
I'm sorry... MS? Hi, I edit video for a living and I was wondering... How the hell is the creative industry supposed to work under this environment on a Windows based platform?
One of your biggest companies you work with, Adobe, makes MOST of the creative software in use on the PC today.
Avid, the other big one, yeah, how are they going to react to this? Avid's that big company that switched from mac majority to you because Apple treated Avid like crap. Go on, treat 'em like crap.
I don't know about any of you, but the cost of a single high end video editing computer runs well over $20K. I don't see how they think shutting out media is going to make vendors who make that much in profits happy. Sure, MS can sell 300 boxes to equal one editing suite, but that editing suite (editor) is supposed to provide media content to 5000 or more. And you're going to restrict how he does his job?
WAIT! I just remembered. Most hollywood studios use LINUX to create the content you want to contol... Okay, never mind... That only means the small guys like me are affected...
wait.