Blu-ray players to "punish" users who hack their gear?
posted September 2nd 2005 11:14AM
Of course the looming next-gen optical format war about to go down between Blu-ray and HD-DVD might be kind of interesting if it weren't taking place, well, in your very livingroom. But with talks broken down and devices starting to crop up, it looks like the first blows will soon be felt—but aren't they supposed to be hitting one another and not the end user? Because this little bit in a Reuters piece this morning left us a little unsettled:
On top of that, consumers should expect punishment for tinkering with their Blu-ray players, as many have done with current DVD players, for instance to remove regional coding. The new, Internet-connected and secure players will report any "hack" and the device can be disabled remotely.
Are they talking about PVP-OPM techniques and rejected HDMI keys, or something else far more sinister? Because apparently "A hacked player is any player that is doing something it's not supposed to do," which open to a pretty fair amount of interpretation—most of which egregious.
Think "remote self-destruct".
But there aren't supposed to be any simple (i.e. no soldering) hacks for Blu-ray, so maybe it will be a non-issue.
hmm... hopefully big brother doesnt gain control of any of this. imagine your blu-ray player getting remotely disabled because of the content you're watching. they could block anything; pirated movies, porn, materials the government doesn't like (ferenheit 9/11, al franken stuff, etc). i know this would never happen, but it's possible.
What an interesting way for a manufacturer to ensure that I will NOT buy their products(s)
Why is this going to be connected to the internet? I thought that it was a movie player? Are we going back to DivX???
Even Orwell (the author of 1984) didn't think it would come to this!
what has the world come to?
I guess the concept of ownership is so last century..... Now, instead of owning the equipment that we purchaced from a company, we get to belong to the company that we purchaced the equipment from! YAY! Who needs the CIA anymore when we've got Sony and Toshiba spying on us to make sure we do not violate Copyright laws!
Whats next? If a someone who has children orders an adult Pay Per View before 11 PM your set top box will notify child services that you may be abusing you children? You may say no way but it could happen the way things are going!
All this fear of copyright infringement is is NUTS!
Surely the best hack will be the one that stops it from needing to be connected to the internet.
It's upsetting that this trend is continuing. Verizon allows you to buy their phones, but then have limited capabilities because Verizon blocks them. Now the Blu-Ray people are going to keep a watchfull eye over our stuff. That's the problem: IT'S OUR STUFF! When did we go from buying to borrowing? If it's my blu-ray and I paid full price, I should be able to do ANYTHING I want to with it, as long as it's legal.
Anyone in the legal profession want to comment on this? Unless some sort of agreement were signed at purchase, the product would not be the company's to disable.
Wait till we get the DRIVES on the PC
I don't much care anymore about these restrictions. I'm not gonna buy one, especially since the first models will probably cost more than $500. I doubt many other early adopters will buy it either, since the value proposition keeps becoming less & less appealing. Without adoption by early adopters, prices won't drop and these will never become mass market devices. Go f*** yourselves Sony, Disney, Toshiba, Warner, et. al.
the "sort of agreement were signed at purchase" part of it is the actual purchasing of the product. just like you silently sign over certain rights when you purchase a ticket for a themepark.
other than removing regional coding, what sorts of "hacks" is everybody so upset about potentially disabling their player(s)? i have had several dvd players and haven't opened or "hacked" a single one.
So interesting to watch the consumer electronics industry commit hari-kari right in front of us. Of course Apple will probably step in with some "acceptable compromise" for which content providers will only resent Apple -- which they think has denied them their greedy profit fantasies. Look at the record industry -- what a bunch of ungrateful pigs. They complain about Apple charging $1 for legal downloads, meantime most of us paying 10 cents a song from allofmp3.com have seen the light and know that 10 cents is just about the real value of a song (i'm talking about the value WE THE CONSUMERS place on a song, not the wet-dream fantasy of the control-freak, greedy content producers). SO -- as always we the consumers will "route around the damange" as a dysfunctional industry resorts to labelling us pirates and outlaws. We are the real criminals in all of this?
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I wouldn't buy a player that required an internet connnection to operate.
.
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Well, maybe HD-DVD has a chance after all.
Uh yeah, and how long is it before we're gonna see the inexpensive Chinese knockoff BluRay/HD-DVD players that don't have the same restrictions. These'll be selling like gangbusters and we'll see another company like Apex rise up to become a major consumer electronics powerhouse.
As with everything, the restriction will be worked around by some pioneers, who will then be hounded by the "law" into complying with what the money (greedy) people are saying. I'm down with fair use for something I own, and like Morgon said in an earlier comment, if I own this piece of hardware, what I do to it is none of your damn business.
Or, it just magically can't connect to the internet....ever
Ok two problems with this article.
1: I dont see the quote anywhere in the reuters article.
2: The title says "Blu-ray recorders" not players.
If it is Blu-ray recorder then it makes more sense seeing that we know for a fact players won't require an internet connection.
However who modifies their burner?
I call bunk on this whole article.
Oops didnt notice the second page of the reuters article, still have gripes about the title though.
It's an undeniable fact that open devices sell better than ones that are locked down, as is proposed here. They honestly think that most people who would potentially buy it are willing to connect it to the internet? Haha! Forget able, I mean willing. Why, so they can track which movies I watch? So they can feed me net-based ads? Or, as said here, so they can shut MY hardware down for doing what I want with it! F*ck the idea of licensing hardware. I buy it = I own it - full and completely. I do what I want with what I own so long as it is not breaking any serious laws.
There is a 0% chance that I would ever buy such a product! And I'm sure I'm not alone in my interests.
spike117: "recorders" was an error, yes, but the quote is on the second page.
Companies get away with crap like this because we put up with it. It's similar to the way that many of us hate Verizon yet continue to fork over $60+/month because "the coverage is good."
But I'll sell my soul for 45GB...
Those who are hopeful are just Sony fanboys.
There are three layers of DRM in the disc.
the decryption codec can be changed on the player
through the internet connection by Sony.
If you don't connect, how are you going to get
the latest codec to play KillBill3 once someone breaks the first encryption?
If you put in a "wrong" disc, it will self-destruct. Then take it to a repair shop to reactivate or via the net.
Blu-ray is the biggest piece of junk.
Isn't it wonderful to know all this is built into the PS3.
Folks all this is for the Studio's convience.
not consumer. Nobody does DRM like Sony does
DRM.
spike117, don't read the article.
read Sony's DRM plans.
I second #4's opinion. A manufacturer can guarantee they will never get a penny from me if they're going to make me put up with this kind of horseshit. Regardless of whether or not I'd "hack" it (which I currently have no intention of), this is way too big brother-y for me.
Uh, 13, you sure think highly of Apple. There's no way they're going to try and change the views of the consortium their a part of. In fact I'd be suprised if they didn't have at least some hand in this. You're talking about the company that uses protection on songs downloaded from itunes you were talking about on your post, and plans on using TPM on their new x86 machines, not to keep people from copying their software, but to keep people from doing what they should be allowed to do (i.e. use an OS they paid for on any system they want to).
As for the whole blu ray thing. I guess we're just gonna have to support HD-DVD. Way to go screwing things up for yourself again Sony (and the rest of the Blu-Ray consortium), first ATRAC, now this. Make use pay a crap load for a system you're coming out with, not letting us do what we want with it, AND adding in the inconvenience of having to have it wired to go online to watch content we payed for. I was slightly biased towards Blu-Ray, but now fugheddabouit. HD-DVD will be cheaper, and more flexible.
I for one welcome our new blue-ray/HD-DVD hardware cloning overloads! APEX OWNS!
Dont worry. Either the nice hackers will hack the anti-hack stuff, or we just buy some foreign brand that doesn't put this crap into the device.
What if you don't have an internet connection? Then, you can't update codecs, etc... So, do they plan on only selling these to people with internet connections...
If they plan to sell them to everyone, how do they plan to get you the new codecs? Mailing would be stupid expensive. Would you have to take it to a tech?
If you take it to a tech, I am getting certified DAY ONE and you will see me selling kits on ebay immediately.
Sony can't win this...
Personally, I hope that BOTH HD-DVD and Blu-Ray Disc fail as a result of these new measures to protect the content producers rights.
What none of these companies seem to remember is that it is OUR money that makes the content have any value at all!
I can see alot of people saying no way to optical discs in a few years anyway....
By the time these two formats become mainstream you'll be able to get 100+GB mini hard drives and 10+GB flash media...
By the time these new optical disc drives come down in price we'll be able to create 1TB RAID arrays that are half the size of a Mac Mini!
They could just update the codec through in the actual blue-ray disc the movie is on, couldn't they?
the key here is, DVD players are not sw upgradable.
Blu-Rays are software upgradable.
If Sony got defeated, they'll update the player and update the Movie Discs to next scheme.
you break that one, they'll move to the next one.
They can change both parts, disc/player's security feature as much as they want.
DVD players cannot, so they are stuck with the broken codec. Blu-ray is their lesson's learned.
Every day there seems like more and more 'bad times' is being forced upon the consumer. I for one feel that any product I buy is mine. Any media I buy is mine as long as I keep it for personal use. These kind of tactics drive early adopters (normally quite tech savvy people who research everything) away. It pushes more people towards illigeal services. If you can see it or hear it you can pirate it. I like paying artists for what they create. I like knowing that I support what they do, what they write and what they play.
The increasingly tech savy consumer base that grew up sharing software with their friends will never stand for having their own hardware and media regulated by someone else. Does anyone know of a rallying point against these measures for consumers to publisise what is gping on. Has anyone set up a Consumer rights group to inform the general public about what is going on and how to make their feelings felt?
If not I'd be more than willing to buy the web space and see if we can't start something.
Cheers,
Adam
If you want a glimpse of the future..take a look at the PSP... its gone through 4 firmwares since its been released ..each step adds more layers of security that was previously broken. The updated firmwares are then built into new PSPs (ie euro PSPs are 1.52).
Some new games require you to upgrade the firmware (its on the disc so no internet connection is necessary) before you can play it.
Guess blu-ray will only be good for holding data. HD-DVD will have the same things implemented but I don't know if it's also good for data storage.
So in the end we'll have video blu-rays ripped to data blu-rays as .avi that we can play on computers hooked up to HDTVs. Problem solved
"the "sort of agreement were signed at purchase" part of it is the actual purchasing of the product. just like you silently sign over certain rights when you purchase a ticket for a themepark."
No. Nobody can sign away their rights under the law. You don't do this when you enter a theme park and you don't do this when you purchase a product. If you have a right under the law, that is neither your right to give away nor is it anyone else's right to take away. And you have a right to do with your property what you see fit.
You are probably confusing the differing standards involved in being on public vs. private property (theme parks being the latter) with actual legal rights over things you own. Let's keep going with your example; I'll correct it for you. Theme parks are privately owned, just as DVD players are once you buy them. Both you and the theme park owner have some of the same rights over your respective property.
So imagine if the previous owner came in to a theme park one day and said "I don't like what you've done here with all these rides destroying the landscaping I put up, so I'm going to shut this park down." What authority would the previous owner have to do that? He obviously would have no authority to do that, just as Sony has no authority to shut off a DVD player just because you've altered it somehow.
This would be the first case I can think of in which an electronics company actually destroyed somebody else's physical property for exercising their rights as a property owner.
It's true that Sony still retains the copyrights to the software inside the machine, but you're not stealing that software by hacking the machine, just replacing it. It's no different than uninstalling Windows from your PC and installing Linux instead - should Microsoft be able to remotely destroy your PC in such a case?
Unless there's something I'm missing, it seems to me that what's being suggested in this article would be utterly illegal. I have a feeling this "feature" will be removed for the US release, although it may still make it into units in other countries.
Regardless, it is pretty ridiculous what electronics and PC companies are trying to do these days. It's gotten to the point where I will literally wait before buying any new product until I am sure all of its protections can easily be hacked. I don't have any undefeated DRM in my house and I never will. (Yes, I have HDCP in my TV, but nothing that's connected to it outputs in a protected format and that will remain true forever, even if that means waiting until PC-based BD burners come out along with the inevitable freeware apps that fool the system into thinking HDCP is enabled.)
I spend literally thousands of dollars on gear and content per year. Probably something like $20,000 every year when you consider everything (computer equipment, electronics equipment, DVD's, CD's, software, etc.). Do these idiots want my money or not?
Suddenly I'm less interested in Blu-Ray. Maybe I'll buy in eventually, but this will definitely delay my adoption of this new technology. I don't really want my DVD player informing Sony what movies I watch.
Humorous. Divx lost during the DVD format wars because it wasn't user friendly, yet here we are being directly threatened that we can be punished by units we've purchased.
I don't know about you guys, but I used to be really excited about moving up to HD. But with all this DRM/threatening crap, it really is making me just sit back and say "Whatever, SD still looks fine, and not moving up saves me all of this money."
At the very least, I'm not buying any of this stuff until it gets hacked to pieces. Screw these companies, don't give them a dime.
Screw Blu-Ray, one of the reason PS2 sell so much was because of piracy. Piracy sell stuff. People like to do what ever they want to their electronic equipment, when will these companies learn?
OK, so I ave serious issues with this whole region code thing... I'm a German living in the US. I now have a 13 month old daughter whom I would like to teach German. Part of this involves, of course, buying movies with a German soundtrack (as well as the English). This means I have to get region code 2 DVDs. These won't play on my US player - never mind the hassle of PAL vs. NTSC encoding, at least that I can legally get around. So I now have to have a second DVD player to play legally bought content (since I want to continue playing region code 1 DVDs, of course!). Why!?!? Sounds to me like the hassle will get even worse, if not impossible, with BlueRay, since I might not be able to get a player that runs on 120V and plays region code 2 discs... Annoying and useless!
the one reason Sony may implement this is because of movie studio pressure. why do you think most(not all) studios chose BR over HDDVD...its because of the content protection. they will both fail if they're not as user friendly as dvd, simple as that.
It is already going to be a hard sell to the average consumer. This is not VHS vs DVD. This DVD vs better looking DVD. How many people are going to want to replace their shiny new DVD collection with another one a year later?
So the average consumer is already out of the picture. But the plan always is to get the early adopter to show off the new product to his average joe friends to impress them. Now with a move like this there wont be many early adopters.
I see this going the way of the laserdisc.
Hollywood can stick their high-definition 2-star movies up their ass. I'll buy a Blu-ray drive for storing data, but why in the hell would I want a video player connected to the internet?
Ditto #26 - Hoping Apex or another manufacturer will come out with a player that disregards the industry's lock-down on media.
It hard enough to get a new format accepted by consumers. They're really shooting themselves in the foot on this, because your usual early adopter won't touch this. It'll be the next laser disk or betamax.
..."It's no different than uninstalling Windows from your PC and installing Linux instead - should Microsoft be able to remotely destroy your PC in such a case?"...
I have no doubt that if Microsoft thought that it could get away with it, Microsoft would.
TiVo has used this model since their Series 1 units. They periodically send out updates via your dial-up or broadband connection. These updates usually break or take away certain abilities TiVo hackers have made to their units. These are eventually hacked as well.
Why the hell would you want 45gb for backup anyway? 4.7gb is plenty, plus most people proably have around 160gb or less. There's gonna be a lot of waste space with Blu-Ray disc. A HD LOTR movie take up around 12gb of space, now why the hell does it need to bo on a 45gb disc?
Am I the only one who thinks that the Blu-Ray forum are just using this sort of story to get more DRM-lusting Movie studios onto their format? The whole idea seems so far-fetched, but perhaps something non-technical media bosses would gobble up. I too hate this 'regionalising' of media and DRM in general, but stories like this may actually be a good idea on Blu-Ray's part. I hope Blu-Ray comes through as of the two proposed ideas it looks far superior(Re-recordable Holographic still decades away IMHO)
Remember media play? It sounded awesome at the time, 500mb on a disc the size of a quarter. But they had the DRM built in from the very beginning. Anyone own any media play discs? Can you even buy them anymore? I didn't think so. They aligned themselves with the wrong side, not the side that actually had to buy their stuff.
Thats dumb, all you have to do to get round "being punished" is restrict the players internet access, if they player refuses to operate under that condition then people will hack that so the player will operate without needing to be connected to the internet. If you didn't sign a contract with the manufacturer when purchseing the unit then what you have bought is fully yours and you can do what you want with it, if they change or modify anything on your system then they are breaking alot of laws by tampering or accessing with somthing that does not belong to them. They are just putting more negative points on the Blu-Ray format.
With the exception of Sony, the manufacteres of these burners/players have no reason to put restrictions, in fact, its in their interest to make it easier for the enduser to do what every they want. Why? because they are selling hardware, not content. Thats why VCRs were so popular, company's didnt care that people pirated content with them, the studios cared.
Sony is a special case though since they produce hardware as well as content, before the used to be a very divided company in terms of policy thus the VCRs and BETA Max etc.. but now they seem to be working together to include content protection into their hardware.