iPod mini goes flash / new ROKR details
By Ryan Block 
posted September 2nd 2005 12:45PM
posted September 2nd 2005 12:45PM
We didn't really think they were going to do it, but it looks like perhaps
Apple took Samsung up on their offer after all (or
someone, anyway). Later this month we can apparently expect Apple to debut 4GB, 6GB, and 8GB flash iPod minis, which
will only be 75-80% of their current size. Apparently the screen's also
going color too, but will shrink about
0.2-inches from its current size—prices should remain steady, but the 8 gigger could cost $299.
Thinksecret's apparently also got some new details on the ROKR, which they claim will apparently come in 256MB and
512MB capacities, and that users will be able to download music over the air for $2 a pop—all about what we'd expected
from the whole deal.
$300 for 8 gigs of flash ? Thinking in terms of $100 for a 2gb cf flash card that's not a bad deal.
Can the flash media inside be removed and re-used ? I know a couple of the early multi gig MP3 players saw their greatest success simply as a source for removable storage. People bought them just to harvest the hdd's inside.
Could this be suitable for that ?
this is cool and all but there is no point for a shuffle now that the minis are flash and getting smaller...
Engadget, your giving the Itunes phone to much publicity. There are plenty of phones out there that can play mp3's
-Almost EVERY Symbian phone
-Almost EVERY Windows Mobile Phone
-Sony Ericcson w600
-Samsung SGH-P730 (has been out for awhile)
-Sony Ericsson S700i
-Sony Ericsson K700i
-Motorola E398
-Siemens SX1
There is more!
Who else agrees that this I-tunes phone has to much hype?
Why would someone opt for an 8Gb Mini when they could get a 20Gb iPod for the same price? I call shenanigans...
I do.
And I wonder if Samsung is selling their flash exclusively to apple or if we can expect all the companies to come out with at least a 5 GB flash player.
Nick
I meant that I agree about the iTunes phone getting to much hype. I don't really like iTunes in the first place and I rip all my CD's to mp3 anyways. So why would I need an iTunes phone.
Nick
@ss4vegito7 (omg... don't use that name!)
I totally agree, what's iTunes anyway? Just some piece of software making it NOT possible to drag 'n drop your mp3 files without extra software like all the phones you just mentioned, isn't it?
#2, One of the reason is if the person wants to run or do any kind of physical activity with the mp3 player. Because Flash memory doesn't have any moving parts, it's more conducive to such activities.
Why would they make an itunes phone that can only hold 512mb? Why not make it atleast 2gb phone? I would like to have only one device and I think the iphone (designed by Apple not Motorola) would be great.
Cool! I've been waiting for a flash base iPod. This is prefect for the gym and should be more reliable then their harddrive based iPods. Just wish the 8GB model wasn't so expensive.
8 Gigs of FLASH memory?? Am I missing something here? I thought Apple was supposed to release a 8 Gb HARD DRIVE mini, ('cause y'know, they are the new BLING ;-P )
Why flash drive?
Flash drives are less fragile.
Flash drives are more energy efficient, meaning much better battery life.
The ipod mini with 8gb holds plenty of music in a much smaller package.
It all sounds good to me...
If only apple would only improve the audio specs on their products and catch up with some of the other players on the market.
#6, you forgot to mention that no moving parts means less power consumption which means longer battery life :)
Though a color LCD screen takes up more juice then a mono LCD so maybe its a trade off.... we'll have to see
either way this is really good news! Flash media comming down in proce is good news for the whole industry!
Even if for now its only Apple thats getting a good price it wont be long before the price comes down for everyone!
If only Apple would open their iPod to other music services like Naptser and Yahoo Music Unlimited. $5 for unlimited music is a sweat deal and Dell Pocket DJ is supported.
I love the idea of a 8gb flash ipod mini, but I don't think thinksecret is reliable. He said they were going to release color ipod minis in feb 2005 and it didn't happen. And considering you can't find 8gb flashmedia of any kind for less than $650 for consumer purchase, I'd be really shocked to see Apple offer it for only $299 plus a screen and audio playback.
"If only apple would only improve the audio specs on their products and catch up with some of the other players on the market."
In what sense? The iPod has a higher s/n ratio than most other players (100db vs. 98db on Creative's players, for example) and it has an almost totally flat frequency response.
"I totally agree, what's iTunes anyway? Just some piece of software making it NOT possible to drag 'n drop your mp3 files without extra software like all the phones you just mentioned, isn't it?"
No, it's software that makes it *possible* to sync all your music with one button (or no buttons, if you set it up that way), according to rules you specify ahead of time. I literally laugh at people who argue in favor of dragging and dropping gigabytes worth of music files - you people are living in the stone ages. I can do in six seconds what it would take you probably half an hour or more to do (meaning doing something like selectively transferring, for example, all of my songs in the punk genre with "speedball" set as a keyword. Good luck doing that by drag and drop).
It's also software that can act as a music store if you want it to, though I won't use it for that as long as DRM is involved. Plenty of other people seem to like it, though.
I cant wait until the 8GB china knock-offs come from LUXPRO :-P
WOooooooooooooo
"Just some piece of software making it NOT possible to drag 'n drop your mp3 files without extra software like all the phones you just mentioned, isn't it?"
As Jeff just mentioned, the only people who consider "drag n drop" a feature bonus are the one's specifically trying to steal files. (Which by the way: is still possible via iTunes or the iPod with the slightest bit of research or another app). You've guys have no legitimacy: what you claim is a feature is actually why nobody cares about all the phones you mention.
Yes, it will be a big deal if phone sync is built into iTunes, if the iTunes mobile UI is the same as iTunes, if phones become a part of the Apple music world like iTunes, all of the iPods, and the iTMS, if Apple makes music transfer easy and seamless, and if not only can you transfer your purchased music from your PC to the phone but also download directly from the phone.
Existing mobile stores suck. WMP Mobile is pretty lame and doesn't make the process seamless, never mind easy.
I think #3 A.K.A ss4vegito7 should Shutup! Engadget caters to its readers, and honestly how many samsung fanboys do you know???
BTW i am soo going to sell my 6 gig mini. i wonder if the new gen will work in my current mini dock.
Oh boy! Another iPod post! Let's see...
#45, You're a mad raving fanboy of some sort. Go home.
#89, I agree, It's all about synergy.
#112. A little late to the party , aren't you?
Oh, and Jeff, you can perform those tasks you metnion with other programs pretty esaily. iTunes ain't the only one.
I think they are limiting the phone to 256 and 512 so it doesnt compete with the shuffle or other Apple products. At least I think I read that on one of the articles about this phone this week.
#14, Thinksecret actually has a very good track record when it comes to predicting Apple releases. If you look through their archives, you'll find various posts after releases explaining how they had the scoop three days earlier, with a link to said scoop. The color iPod mini deal apparently was a misunderstanding somewhere along the line, where the fact that Apple was changing the colors of the minis was taken to mean that color screens would be added to the minis.
iTunes is capable of drag n drop (at least on a mac it is)
Random Question:
can i steal my friends tunes from her pc with my ipod and then stick them via ipod on my itunes on my laptop?
I get sick of my songs so fast and dont have time to search for new ones.
fun to see how all the PCers react with every Apple-related post. when will they finally get over the inferiority complex? let me help. there is so much more software available for the PC. 95%+ of the world are in the MS camp, so how could so many people be wrong? the only reason macs are virus-free is because they are not important enough to attack. a two button mouse is good for your sex life. the ipod + itunes craze is just that and will soon be ancient history. macs are way too expensive. [feeling better?]
Are there any drawbacks to flash memory? For example, is there a re-write limit, i.e. if you keep deleting and rewriting stuff to it, does it suffer?
If not, I'm waiting for the day that flash memory replaces hard drives in laptops. Would mean better energy efficiency (that is, if they don't run hotter than HDDs, which would mean greater need for cooling.) Or a new breed of computers somewhere between tablet and handheld, like that Nokia one posted a month or so ago.
let us not forget how handy it is to sync your Ipod with your podcast subscriptions in ITunes..voila', fresh content for your commute and it can be set up to be as easy as plugging it in.
Jacks, yes, if that PC has any of many apps designed for this purpose installed on it. VersionTracker and download.com have many and they are just a few megs.
But this is the point: the only reason people bitch about a preference towards non-drag-and-drop is because they want to steal. Sorry, you like such lousy music that you don't enjoy it after a while.
People with legitimate music collections and real love of music much prefer syncing up portions of their legal collection programmatically or entirely which is horrible doing via drag-and-drop.
Yes, Apple would rather appeal to people with large, legitimate music collections, to people who love music. They do not want to cater to people who steal music, who only listen to a few crappy tracks that they are sick of after a week. There is no market incentive to appeal to that crowd. Which is why the techy nerds who pirate are delusional to think it's a drawback that Apple isn't catering to them.
sleepmon, yes, ultimately flash will wear out, but the life of the memory should be good enough. There are also limitations to transfer speeds.
Oh... also, jack, on a PC it's much easier to steal than on a Mac. Just turn on "View Hidden Files" and you can see the music files. Drag and drop works.
for the people saying an 8 gb flash based ipod mini isn't economically feasible: "The iPod mini will sport dual NAND flash memory chips to achieve those higher capacities, and Apple has already locked in for the rest of the year a majority of Samsung's new 4GB flash modules."
so, its not using an 8 gb module, its using two 4 gb NAND chips.
I literally laugh at people who argue in favor of dragging and dropping gigabytes worth of music files - you people are living in the stone ages. I can do in six seconds what it would take you probably half an hour or more to do (meaning doing something like selectively transferring, for example, all of my songs in the punk genre with "speedball" set as a keyword. Good luck doing that by drag and drop).
#25 tf
"Yes, Apple would rather appeal to people with large, legitimate music collections, to people who love music."
Are you talking about the grannies and the teenyboppers who store 60 songs on their 60 gb ipod?
#15
"In what sense? The iPod has a higher s/n ratio than most other players (100db vs. 98db on Creative's players, for example)"
Jeff, please tell us all where you got that amazing information from (I'm talking about the ipod having a 100db snr ratio)...
Otherwise I'll assume your talking out of your ass...
DM, are you upset or something.
As for your comment: "Are you talking about the grannies and the teenyboppers who store 60 songs on their 60 gb ipod?"
Does it matter? If people bought a more expensive product out of their price range, that's bad?
The question is: what is Apple's incentive to cater to people who admit they only listen to a little music, get bored with it (after stealing it), and move on to somebody else's computer to steal another small amount of music that they also get bored with? ZERO!
Where have you read that apple mp3 players have an 100 db s/n ratio? I know creative products are generally 98 s/n and have always felt their sound quality to be superior to apple's. Also s/n isnt everything fidelity and volume clarity are important as well.
gm
#24: "For example, is there a re-write limit, i.e. if you keep deleting and rewriting stuff to it, does it suffer?"
Once you get the typical max-rewrite figure (I dont know, but I guess 30000-50000) you can do the math yourself.
10 rewrites a day x 365 days = only 3650 rewrites. And we are talking 7 days a week nonstop for a full year. Not that realistic. Lets say 1500 rewrites (probably a lot less) instead x 10 years. Still only 15000 rewrites. I wouldnt worry.
#31 "DM, are you upset or something."
Haha, just providing some "constructive" criticism :-P
"Does it matter? If people bought a more expensive product out of their price range, that's bad?"
No, it's not bad, but it does contradict your argument that ipod buyers are serious music listeners.
The fact is, its just the opposite - ipods are for the masses and a few people (generally music enthusiasts) even know about brands like Iriver, Cowon, Archos etc.
You should by now know that Apple wants everyone and their cat to buy an ipod, whether they like music or not. But hey, thats how companies survive...!
"Haha, just providing some "constructive" criticism :-P"
Sticking out your tongue and whining is constructive? You don't even seem to udnerstand my point. It appears you just want to say: iPods are fashionable, iPods are expensive ripoffs and their users are dumb. Whatever. Keep repeating that to yourself. You sound really smart... and cool!
"No, it's not bad, but it does contradict your argument that ipod buyers are serious music listeners."
You weren't listening to my argument. My argument is that Apple wants a product that appeals to music lovers first. Supplemental to that, they want to cater to anyone who wants a product wih broad appeal and ease-of-use, even if at a premium.
I wasn't argument about who the consumers are or are not... I was arguing about Apple's target audiences.
"The fact is, its just the opposite - ipods are for the masses and a few people (generally music enthusiasts) even know about brands like Iriver, Cowon, Archos etc."
No, the fact is: even the music enthusiasts prefer the iPod.
"You should by now know that Apple wants everyone and their cat to buy an ipod, whether they like music or not. But hey, thats how companies survive...!"
No they don't. They don't want people who insist on the product being cheapest, they don't want people who don't appreciate the ease-of-use and simplicity, they don't want people that want to steal... which is my only point.
Will they take them if they come on their own? Yes. But they have no interest at all in appealing to them.
I have been waiting for a flash version of the ipod. I had to sell my other one because the battery life became awful. The only problem is that I don't like the look of the mini, however it will mostly be in my pocket. Good battery life plus the best UI at $299 is amazing.
#35 tf
"Sticking out your tongue and whining is constructive?"
No, sticking out a tongue and putting constructive within "" meant I was joking... But maybe you're too dumb to understand that.
"My argument is that Apple wants a product that appeals to music lovers first."
That's not true. If it was they wouldn't have created a player which sounds worse than competing players (yea, sorry to break your bubble, its a fact - just go to any decent site which provides an unbiased sound comparision.
And I'm also pretty sure that the music lovers (with huge collections) also looking at what song is playing, which apparently can't be done on the SHUFFLE.
"No, the fact is: even the music enthusiasts prefer the iPod."
So you're telling me music enthusiasts prefer the crappy sound quality of the ipod. Some "enthusiasts" they are...Haha
"they don't want people that want to steal"
Actually they don't give a rats ass if people steal music or not. Its the RIAA etc etc who put pressure on them to implement anti-piracy measures.
And why the fuck are you going on about stealing anyway? Are you telling me ipod users are more legit users because they cant drag and drop? Wtf...
I do not like crappy music! I commute over an hour each way every day and sometimes go into the office in sometimes heavy traffic. I need variety. Can anyone reccomend any good podcasts? I am an ipod newbie just got it last friday. forgive my nieveness. and typos.
Ps. I think psp should be a cell phone too!
Simply amazing, more righteous iPod fanboys running around dismissing everything non-iPod as being worthless trinkets.
The amound of clueless self-righteousness involved in writing some of this BS is simply incredible. non-iPod/iTunes users have no legitimacy? We're not real music lovers? We're living in the stone ages? Maybe you dolts forgot about those of us who prefer to rip our music from CDs we bought because ITMS can't be bothered to offer anything but low bitrate files. Maybe you forgot about those of us who have been sorting our music efficiently using file structure since the "good old days" because we actually had the attention span to learn some simple organization skills. Maybe you forgot about those of us who have large amounts of live sets and radio shows that we listen to before the iPod geniuses came along and discovered this wonderful thing that was then so brilliantly labeled "podcasting" (several years too late *cough*).
Fanboys who can't recognized the merits and faults of their favorite toys are just that, clueless fanboys. Wow, inferior bitrates, piss poor EQ, DRM left and right, made for music lovers INDEED.
That having been said, lower flash memory prices and a larger capacity/lower lost flash player can only be good for the industry. Some of you might even recognize the merits of that for what it is if you spent a little less time worshipping your toys.
Funky comments towards my post, uh oh!
Oh wait... the function you just described... that has been implemented in WMP 9 since it came out and works with all drag 'n drop memory-based devices... :O
Stone age? Don't make me laugh Jeff.
And who the heck has 60 gigs of music anyway... I bet NONE of you do! >:(
Since when has the ipod been for music enthusiasts?......it was one the most dissapointing experiences when I first listened to my ipod expecting to blown away by the sound...i grew to love it but have moved on to another brand since.
.....well if it wasnt for `stealing` then I doubt the mp3 player (ipod) would be half the succuss it is.
Apple is ease of use and quality, but they dumb it down for the mass`s in equal portions.
I am a troll: b6662966@yahoo.com
60 gigs = ~155 cd-s in wav @ 45 minutes nominal/cd
Dead on nethawk (post #23) - your insight would make Miss Cleo jealous. I really am looking forward to some more jealous tools actually slamming Engadget for reporting on cool gadgets. How dare they include those that are popular! Why, we pay so much for the priv - oh wait, yeah... Hey, glad to see the critics of Engadget read every post on an Apple article they don't like.
"If it was they wouldn't have created a player which sounds worse than competing players (yea, sorry to break your bubble, its a fact - just go to any decent site which provides an unbiased sound comparision."
Sorry, but I never claimed the iPod had superior sound quality. Too bad. Maybe your argument would be helped if you didn't put words in my mouth.
If you don't think the music industry and musicians themselves prefer the iPod, you are insane. Sorry.
Music lovers do not necessarily always demand high quality. In fact, anyone who can really appreciate quality understand that the ambient sounds which are normal when listening to a mobile device, the compressed bitrates of portable music pretty much mitigate the need for higher sound quality. However, the ease of use, superior organization, and integration with the desktop is enough to make it a better choice.
"If it was they wouldn't have created a player which sounds worse than competing players (yea, sorry to break your bubble, its a fact - just go to any decent site which provides an unbiased sound comparision."
That's a pathetic argument. You are attacking the entire Apple strategy: iTunes, the iTMS, and the iPod which is a family of products (the iPod color, the iPod mini, and the iPod shuffle). And now you want to pretend that their cheapest device is the one I intended for music lovers? Sorry, try again. I never suggested as much and it's patently absurd.
"And why the fuck are you going on about stealing anyway? Are you telling me ipod users are more legit users because they cant drag and drop? Wtf..."
No, I specifically said iPod users can drag-and-drop quite easily. I am saying Apple doesn't want to cater to thiefs because it doesn't make business sense. I didn't say they completely stop thiefs. And why am I mentioning it? Because one poster brought up the drag-and-drop issue and hasn't denied his use of it and another poster specifically asked about stealing. I wouldn't be talking about it if people weren't complaining or asking about it.
I think everyone would live a much better, happier life once they realize that not every product, service and website is not specifically tailored to them.
Fishes,
narco.
Not possible - $299 8gb flash iPod.
8gb flash cards are too expensive, cheapest price for consumers is $650.
4gb flash cards can be bought by consumers in the 225-250 range and I'm sure Apple will get a steep discount, but 2 x 4gb flash cards would be way to pricy for them to offer for $299 and still get at least 20-30% profit.
The only possibility might be using multiple 1 or 2gb cards.