Toshiba develops MP3 player with 60 hour fuel cell battery
By Thomas Ricker 
posted Sep 16th 2005 10:00AM
posted Sep 16th 2005 10:00AM
Toshiba, who wears the belt for world's smallest
methanol fuel cell, has now developed two
fuel-cell powered MP3 player prototypes. A flash-based player measuring 1.4 x 4.3 x 0.8-inches is said to run for 35
hours on a single 3.5ml charge of highly concentrated methanol while a hard drive based player swells to 2.6 x 4.9 x
1.1-inches and runs for about 60 hours on a single 10ml charge. Those dimensions are pretty sweet (the 60GB ipod is 2.4
x 4.1 x .75 inches by comparison) and will certainly get smaller once optimized for production. The players will be on
exhibit at CEATEC Japan starting October 4th. Could this mean actual product by Christmas 2006?
[Thanks, Roamerick]
am i the only person in the world who can live with a twelve hour battery in my mp3 player?
This is cooler than the controller news.
Freakin' sweet! :D
Now all they have to do is have a reasonable starting price and I'm sold ;)
Will this explode if you drop it??????
Hehe Chris, that is what I was thinking: is it gonna say: "CAUTION: Highly Flammable. May Explode if overheated". =)
Yeah, so now you have to carry around an mp3 player and "juice"?
No thanks.
Yeah, but no charger to carry and you only have to carry the "juice" if you're going to be gone a long time. Plus recharge takes a minute instead of hours.
Can you get that fuel cell and juice past the TSA security people for your overseas flight? I though not. I'll stick with Lithium ion technology for now.
(I don't believe Methanol can be in checked luggage. You'd have to drain the thing to pack it and find fuel when you get there.)
@steven: so you mean at this moment you always walk around with an extra pair of batteries or a recharger?
I for one think this is pretty nice. Perhaps this will one day be usefull for PDA's and devices alike.
Why would people want to give up the convienence of rechargable batteries for the danger and inconvienence of explosive flammable liquid that must be purchased from a store? What happens if you run out and you aren't near a store that sells refills?
I don't think they'll let you take this on a plane.
I wish you people would use your mind before posting. No, you don't have to carry around the "juice" because it lasts for 60 hours without having to put anything in it. The current thing that steers people away from the ipod shuffle, and ipod nano is that the batteries are internal and eventually they simply stop working because of the fact that you can never really recharge a traditional battery, fuel cell's completely eliminate all of this. The idea of fuel celled digital products is very, very smart. Imagine fuel celled laptops or PSP's that last a lot longer than they normally would, and run on something that's much cheaper to you. And no, it wouldn't explode unless you tried to set flame to it or something, which why would one want to do that to their mp3 player any ways.
"Will this explode if you drop it??????"
Li-Ion batteries can explode. This looks to be no more dangerous than a cigarette lighter.
12 hours is fine for me, I'll just plug it in when I get home at night.
You know if they ever get fuel cell tech smaller, I think that putting the whole unit inside a cartridge might be more benficial. Essentially just make it so that you have a "battery" form factor so that people won't be scared off by this new tech and so it will be easier to "refuel" the device/s.
Wow, cool!
Steve
I don't think somethign that has a 60 hour playback time means you need to carry a bottle around with you. It's 60 hours, and even still, so what if you kept a tiny vial of it in your bag, you get an instant recharge without having to plug it in and waiting.
I hope they do this for a lot of portable devices. Cell phones, laptops. Yeah of course it's flammable, so is Gas in your car, and batteries are full of nasty shit that's corrosive and toxic. They make them safe though don't they?
Let'd not forget the billions of people walking around with a lighter in their pockets. Like the one in my front pocket, next to my... Well, anyway, let's just say I trust the technology.
How should you try to get that through airport security? Screams attention!!!
Oooh - "highly concentrated" methanol! I imagine it must be like neutronium - that MP3 player probably weighs half a ton...
If you Google "highly concentrated methanol", all the hits are from Toshiba and Ultracell (the creators of the fuel cell). Apparently, it just means that it's 30% methanol and 70% water.
I wouldn't call 60 proof "highly concentrated" - rubbing alcohol is 140 proof, fer chrissakes.
I just wonder what happens with the "juice" you put in, because what I know of fuel cells (correct me if I'm wrong) the fuel cell convert the "juice" into energy by decomposing the "juice" into water (or something like that)... but I think its a great idea in terms of battery life and ecology... now I hope they do it for all the other gadgets...
No. 10: Imagine fuel celled or PSP's.
Yeah, that's really child safe xD
hmm what if they say that for the protection of your player you must only use their own brand methanol (:O see the branding on the bottle in that photo) they might price it like printers. if they sold their digital electronics dirt cheap to get the market share, then slowly increase the price of the juice, it would be killer :)
Let's just hope you don't spill on yourself while you're refilling the fuel cell. Methanol is crazy toxic especially since this is supposed to be highly concentrated. http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/M2015.htm
Brian - methanol is a tad different from rubbing alcohol ;)
I think the idea of fuel-cell electronics is brilliant. Maybe the general public should stick to batteries, but imagine methanol-powered electronics for hikers, soldiers, and scientists! I would love to be able to carry a laptop on 3-day missions without carrying extra batteries or my Voltaic. Need GPS coords? Bam. Done. Need approach vectors for the LZ and complete situational awareness from higher? Bam. Done. Satellite and topographics? Done. Up to the minute intel? Done. Want to AIM your buddies while under fire? Done. :D
Going along the lines of what Maikeru said, they should have battery (AA, AAA, etc) shaped containers filled with the fuel. Once one runs out snap in another one and your good to go. I think non-techy people will appreciate the familiar site of batteries.
We've had "do not eat!" We've had "do not chew!"
Next up is "do not drink! (if underage)"
What 23 said, but instead of just making it the container, make it the same form factor and voltage and put the + and - voltage on the ends like a normal battery. Then there'd be no need for all new devices when you can get the same juice out of the same AA or AAA form factor.
I'd buy AAA batteries that lasted 10x longer and "recharge" in a few seconds.
OK, am I the only one who "GETS THIS" ???
Battery makers are all over this because its the same damn thing as Printer Cartrdiges, eventually you run out of juice, and you have to keep getting their brand. I would rather have a Li-ON battery that lasts for 2-3 years than having to refill it 2-3 a month over the same time period. DUH!
Cool. Alcohol fuels a lot of things that I do too!
Can someone please come up with the Vodka Fuel Cell? I think a combo MP3/flask would really, um, rock!
Nice try, but nobodys gonna pour crap into their mp3 player or any other device to make it work. I can't see how anyone here thinks this is "brilliant", although it is interesting that they can do it I suppose.
But heck, does anyone even use batteries for most devices anymore? I couldn't imagine anyone buying a cell phone or laptop that ran on batteries. I don't even think most vaccuum cleaners take bags. Did people forget this or am I just taking crazy pills or something?
Justin -
I'm well aware of the differences between ethyl, methyl and isopropyl alcohol. I just found the "highly concentrated" description of a 30% solution to be funny.
Granted, you wouldn't want to take a swig of the stuff, but you wouldn't want to do that with a lot of denatured alcohols out there either. It's the toxic effects of the methanol you have to be worried about - this stuff is not going to explode or catch fire easily. You need at least 80 proof alcohol to flambe in cooking (and that's if it's been warmed up first by the hot pan - you need much stronger stuff if you want it to go "whoosh"). This stuff has enough water to make it near impossible to light.
"Safely diluted" seems to be more apropos.
Is methanol a renewable energy source? There's no denying that fuel cells are a much more efficient energy producer, and hydrogen is a very clean fuel - but not easy to store/transport. Which is why you see fuel cells running off of methanol or even gasoline (as a source of hydrogen). Replace an engine powered by gasoline with a fuel cell powered by gasoline and you'll need much less gasoline, but you're still dependant on it. All I see with this is another dependency building up, when right now it's still more efficient yet to produce energy (in whatever form; coal, diesel, nuclear...) at a central power plant. Everyone wants longer lasting devices, but wouldn't better battery technology or another way to store electricity (flywheels?) make more sense in the long run?
...
That's like putting gas in your wristwatch. Stupid.
...
US$.02 Non-refundable.
Justin, methanol is highly poisenous. It can cause blindness and death.
Although I think it's really cool to have a power source like that from what I've seen people doing with their everyday appliances I think it'll never pass for safety concerns. Too bad. And no, it can not be made less dangerous.
Batteries are not so easy to open/destroy and are quite sturdy. Beside, these days you're not even allowed to take a lighter to the plane, can't imagine taking a bottle of methanol.
What I don't understand how come with all this in mind they still went ahead and produce this?
r: are you insane? EVERYTHING uses batteries! My iPod, cell phone, laptop, etc... it's all battery powered.
Jeeze... I hate to say it but fuel cells won't take off until less stupid people exist in this world. Perhaps there ought to be an entrance test to qualify to purchase a product that is sufficiently advanced enough that you need to be intelligent about its operation.
To everyone that thinks methanol is dangerous - go ahead and short circuit the + and - terminals on a Lithium Ion battery, oops - there goes your hand and those burns on your body are very unbecoming. The potential energy in rechargeable batteries is extremely dangerous. Maybe you should try to over-charge a battery and watch it vent its toxic stew of piping hot vapor at you?
I'd rather take mildly flammable (70% water) over LIon cells which have been in the news enough to prove they can be dangerous if improperly used.
By the way, LIon cells haven't made any amazing inroads in energy density, charge time or price in quite some time, maybe the next gen tech needs something that stores a lot more in a smaller footprint? As long as the catalyst doesn't wear out in a year and you're left with a paperweight, I say bring this crap to market!
How about nuclear power?
That way you could buy an mp3 player with enough power for 100 years or even more with like less than a gram of plutonium.
One thing is certain it would be way more useful than a stupid bomb made to kill milions.
Im not talking about today but in the future BTW
"But Mr Homeland Security Officer I need this supply of methanol for my MP3 Player". "Why can't I take this flight?"
"Is methanol a renewable energy source?"
I think all you have to do is raise grain and fire up yee olde backyard still and you can produce alcohol, and thus presumably methanol (some refinement required). I don't now precisely what the efficiency ratio is of cultivating the grain and refining the brew versus tapping and refining crude, but one season to produce a fields worth of alcohol sounds at least as RENEWABLE as oil, which takes thousands - millions of years to produce (though I think you end up with more)...
Who knows...maybe someone will find a way to make alcohol/methanol out of kelp...
Agree with #33, the idiots are out in full force today.
With the mentality being expressed in this thread, any kind of internal combustion engines would have never been built because of the flamability of gasoline.
And yes the big thing that is holding fuel cell tech back is the archaic and repressive laws concerning the airline industry. Once fuelcells are approved to be used on planes all you idiots out there will wonder why this tech wasn't around sooner to replace batteries.
The fuel for fuel cells is cheap plentiful and easy to produce, it makes little to no pollution. Batteries are expensive, extremely wasteful and more complicated to produce.
People have been using disposable and refillable lighters for a long time. Guess what? They contain a flammable liquid! Some lighters can be filled so you do not come into contact with the flammable liquid.
Your car can be filled without coming into contact with the flammable liquid.
OH, and by the way do you need to carry around a gas can for your car? Do you need to carry around a gas can for fuel cells? Do you need to carry around your charger for your ipod? No you do not, these are not valid arguments.
I would think that on a site like engadget there would be less public ignorance but I guess I am wrong.
Hrmm... Am I the only one here thinking that a methanol distribution infrastructure needs to be put into place if this is, in fact, "the future".
Am i the only one that thinks that the people who are complaining about this AWESOME technology, are the same iWhores who have ipods and cant admit that their battery life is complete CRAP?
bazald
"Hrmm... Am I the only one here thinking that a methanol distribution infrastructure needs to be put into place if this is, in fact, "the future"."
You should be the only one, but you're not. The refilling infrastructure would be located in your house. So that at some point during the 60 hours of use you get out of it you say "Oh I need to refill my MP3 player so I can listen to music at work" You would the proceed to you home filling station. It looks exactly like the cupboard under your kitchen sink where you keep your little bottle of fuel. You fill it up... Hooray! Music!
Let me sum this up.
1)Company who is NOT Apple is first to market with an innovation which will change the face of consumer electronics as we know it. They release it for an MP3 player which is NOT an ipod.
2)People become ignorant and fanboyist and brush aside the technology using flawed logic to justify their now obsolete ijunk.
***2 Years Later***
3) Apple releases ibook with fuel cell technology
4 The people rejoice.
Fuel cells release CO2, but a system like this (fill her up) produces less waste. I wonder what's worst for the environment overall. Producing, transporting, using and disposing batteries or fuel cells?
My bet would be on batteries for sure.
----- "Agree with #33, the idiots are out in full force today.
With the mentality being expressed in this thread, any kind of internal combustion engines would have never been built because of the flamability of gasoline. " -----
How can you be so shortsighted? Consumers don't want to fill up their electronics with fuel any more than they want to fill up their gas tanks with fuel. The problem is that with cars you don't really have much of an option, do you? There's not any good technology really available today to make it so that you don't have to stop at the gas station every couple weeks. As soon as there is.... well, *that's* innovation
Furthermore, consumers won't want this any more than many people want to buy non-rechargable batteries. With any other consumer electronics, batteries can last years, not requiring you to constantly purchase more "fuel". In addition, NiMH batteries today and the like can hold even better charges than disposable alkalines.
The picture is a little bit bigger than some poor vehicle-related analogy.
Oh please, you Apple haters are too much. I see one or two comments her of iPod owners who didn't like this idea. I'm sure the support for this tech will be divided the same way amongst iPod users as it is among the dozen or so people who have chosen another DAP.
As an Apple supporter, I am excited about the prospects for portable fuel cell technology. I look forward to the time that my favorite electronics/computer company integrates it into its products so I can decide if that gear is the best for me.
I understand that it's frustrating for many when Apple comes out with a product using some tech (e.g. hard drive mp3 player) that's been around for awhile and people think Apple invented it because it becomes popular. But you can't fault the company for integrating these concepts so well. And it'd be naive to expect all users of consumer electronics to know the complete histories of all technologies involved.
--BB
"Posted Sep 16, 2005, 11:12 AM ET by r
Nice try, but nobodys gonna pour crap into their mp3 player or any other device to make it work. I can't see how anyone here thinks this is "brilliant", although it is interesting that they can do it I suppose.
But heck, does anyone even use batteries for most devices anymore? I couldn't imagine anyone buying a cell phone or laptop that ran on batteries. I don't even think most vaccuum cleaners take bags. Did people forget this or am I just taking crazy pills or something?"
Go to the store and find any portable electronic device and if it doesn't have batteries, you get a cookie.
"Posted Sep 16, 2005, 11:12 AM ET by r
Nice try, but nobodys gonna pour crap into their mp3 player or any other device to make it work. I can't see how anyone here thinks this is "brilliant", although it is interesting that they can do it I suppose.
But heck, does anyone even use batteries for most devices anymore? I couldn't imagine anyone buying a cell phone or laptop that ran on batteries. I don't even think most vaccuum cleaners take bags. Did people forget this or am I just taking crazy pills or something?"
Go to the store and find any portable electronic device and if it doesn't have batteries, you get a cookie.
Where would you get this fuel from? I think the suggestion of making it in battery shaped containers that you just pop into the device is the best one so far. As long as these 'batteries' didn't cost a bomb it'd be great.
BigBen...
Yes, all you say is true. But you have to admit that Old Number 7's observation is both amusing and probably prophetic :-)
45 -Dunno man, I think you are waaaay off base.
People do want to buy non-rechargeable batteries, go into a store and you see stacks of them!!! Yeah no one is buying them, they just look pretty on the shelf.
Rechargeable's are not so popular because it's easier to just buy a new pack and put them in. I keep both at home and frequently I end up using the new one's because it takes too long to recharde when I need them.
Anyone who doesn't see the brilliance in this doesn't really buy very many high tech portable devices in the first place.
Anyone who uses a laptop or a MP3 player, and especially a cellphone knows what a pain in the ass it is when the power runs out.
Give me the option to fill it up with some cheap fluid and you have me sold.
You won't always have an outlet to plug into and you will definately not have the hour or two you need to recharge it.
This is ideal for people who are on the go all the time for work. ESPECIALLY in a city environment. If it's faster to recharge and lasts longer, they will come.
1- Do i need a fire estinguisher??
2- Does it produces fumes?
3- Does it has an age restriction?
4- Can i swallow the liquid?
5- does it spill when recharged?
6- Is this Al-qaeda proof?
7- Does it fill like a soda can?
8- Can i refill my lighter with it?
9- Would i look sexy?
Hmm but doesn't sony already produce flash players that last over 35 hours? (I believe the latest flash mp3 players are rated at 45+ hours)
I think that it would be safe kind of methanol seeing as it is dilluted,it wont be that corrosive.As i have read it only requires a teaspoon of this stuff to keep it running for 60 hours.
I think this is great but is gonna take some time to get used to and start seeing it in other products.
And i dont think they would release a product that is unsafe.They do test things beofr ethey are released.The MP3 player is probably coated in something that will not allow excess liquid inside and will not damage it in any way.
What i dont like is that we are going to have to pay for this stuff.I think using rechargeable batteries are probably cheaper to charge.Maybe they could introduce methanol pumps for our house ^_^
As websites like Engadget and Slashdot get more and more popular, they are bound to attract a lot of less science and technology educated readers. I'm not surprised that a lot of Apple fanboys fell into this category. After all, Apple is touted for its ease of use.
This diluting effect will eventually bring these sites down. Sad but inevitable.
Now that Gizmodo is barely readable. Engadget is getting dumbed down. Anyone has good suggestions for alternatives?
What a great way to go, I definitely think that the market is headed in the right direction with new innovations like this coming out. Yeah, I think that the security issue on these new players would be an issues. I would love this cell technology to make it to laptops and DVD players. The way the cells work it that there are two chambers separated by the converter. One chamber is filled with hydrogen the second is empty. As the hydrogen gets used and produces water, the water fills the second chamber.
How do so many threads get morphed into Apple comments? Get that chip off your shoulder, jeez.
Everyone. I can't believe there are over FIFTY comments here and NO ONE has mentioned that 1/3 of humans have methane in their FARTS. THERE IS HUGE POTENTIAL FOR HUMOR HERE, FOLKS!
Get with it.
Psyop-er,
Many people have yet to realize that there are alternatives to alkalines out there now that perform equally as well or better. Traditionally, this has not been the case with rechargables, and so disposable battery sales hadn't been too affected, but that is changing (quickly, even). But that's just for general electronics anyway. I don't know anybody out there that has an MP3 player where they're constantly replacing the batteries with disposables.
As for me, I have no problems recharging an MP3 player over the course of the night, just as I do my cell phone. To me, having to purchase fuel every few months, as well as deal with the little issues that come with it (bottle spilling, for example?), doesn't strike me as anything I need, and not really revolutionary.
I'm not saying that there aren't people out there that would go through this for 60 hours of life, but I don't think there's as many people out there that are *that* bothered by having to plug in their MP3 players nightly as to really find a bona fide need or want for the hassles that a bottle of fuel introduces (or the long-term monetary committment).
Bigland,
Maybe with Engadget & Co., but any morons on Slashdot get modded into oblivion....
Slashdot isn't going anywhere.
Some of you need to pay a little bit more attention in chemistry class, or get ready to take one soon (assuming you haven't taken one yet).
If you would have taken chemistry you would realize that such little amount of methane cannot explode like a stick of dynomite. If you bring one of these on a flight and light it on fire it won't explode or cause any damage but an annoyance and jail time for whoever used it.
However carrying this on flight might raise eyebrows unless they have a method to sense what kind of liquid is inside and if I remember correctly they do. Therefor it is most likely not a problem to carry methane powered devices such as an mp3 player on board an air plane.
I do believe it is a good idea to have these powered by methane because it MAY be less expensive (not sure) but it does seem to last a long time which is good for those 60hour trips to the moon.
Hopefully nuclear technology will be controlled soon and people could carry around nuclear powered gadgets which would not require recharge including nuclear powered cars. However such vision can be easily curropted by terrorists.
On an other note... If you can use your MP3 player for 60hours straight, then you might need to go see a doctor (or psychiatrist) and if not then you should not worry about having to bring methane with you.
But one last thing... Just imagine your lost in the woods and your GPS runs out! It is a good thing it runs of methane because you can use the "extra" methane that you carry around to find your way back home. Or even be able to fuel your cellphone in the same type of emergency.
As an iWhore who realizes the iPod battery life is crap, I'd just like to say two things:
1. I don't really mind plugging it in every couple days.
2. Fuel cells will be the shit. For mp3 players, digital cameras, laptops, ham radios, GPS, emergency beacons, and basically anything else you'd like to take into the woods for a week.
Imagine the end of all battery size / DC adaptor plug size issues. One fuel to rule them all!
Its amazing how many morons there are.
35.. Nuclear power... Do you even know how it works? STEAM!!! Im sure no ones wants steam flying out of their electronic device. Last time i check 212+ F didnt feel to effin good.
Most of you people think that this stuff doesnt work. Well im sorry that you undereducated people think so. The engineers study for years, just to think of this stuff. Everything is pristine. I think this is great... why you might ask? There are hundreds of reasons. Methanol is uber easy to recreate. No more batteries to fill up land fills. Much more power for much longer time periods.
For all you talking some smack on Methanol and how its used. Shut up, and take Organic chem III and Biochem II... Only then can you open your mouth about how this will work and how it wont. The First computers and game systems (manufacturers) were all told that they would flunk out... No one wanted huge bricks that barely do anything... LOOK AT WHAT WE HAVE TODAY. You people dont even look at history and all the things that "would never work". It simply takes time..
Im for this new type of technology for w/e it needs to be used for. And if your mind is as degraded as #56, then im sorry that you never made it past highschool and into a higher educational level.
Please, open your minds and broaden your thoughts before you say anything about technology.
There are already like 60 comments, so its unlikely anyone will get down to this, but I'd like to post my view anyway.
#31, Methanol is not a renewable fuel, as it requires natural/finite resources to create it. Methanol burns cleaner then fossil fuel, but the process to purify/refine it hasn't been streamlined.
#33, I'm sure the final product won't simply be a hole where they allow the consumer to "pour" methanol in. It will probably be a cartrige, or a compressed injector. Whatever it is, it will definately package the contents safely.
#35, Nuclear power's cool, but we definately don't yet have the technology to shrink down the process that requires a body of water, a few 1000sqft. of building, and a working staff of a few dozen people into the size of an mp3 player. Not to mention the nuclear waste created by that gram of plutonium, which emits dangerous alpha particles (radiation) that last for some rediculous amount of years.
Comment #55 is so true. So sadly true.
On a side note, I have been injecting a 50/50 mix of methanol and water into my Supra for 2 years and it makes me smile every time I get on the boost; seeing what Toshiba is doing makes me smile just as much!
I'll take 2 please.
I am sure that toshiba have thought about this very carefully.. here is acompany this offering a technology that avoids all the pitfalls of recharging a battery. also has anyone thought about people who do a lot of travelling and clearly do not have access to a charging point so that they can charge up their chosen audio player. i have had personal experiences where my ipod has suddenly ran out of juice because i did not have the convenience of charging up my ipod. for a battery to last near on 60 hours without the need to charge up the mp3 player.
62. Posted Sep 16, 2005, 2:41 PM ET by enzo
"Methanol is not a renewable fuel, as it requires natural/finite resources to create it."
Yes it *IS* a renewable energy source. It's a by product of decomposition from bacteria they collect it at a lot of landfills already. So if we run out of things that rot, we have bigger problems than powering our iPods. and it's found in Natural Gas, which the USA has loads of anyway. We have tons of trash, so it's not like we'll run out of that anytime soon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol#Production
Wetpiggirl wrote:
"Its amazing how many morons there are.
35.. Nuclear power... Do you even know how it works? STEAM!!! Im sure no ones wants steam flying out of their electronic device. Last time i check 212+ F didnt feel to effin good."
This goes for you too enzo.
The fact is that a radioisotope thermoelectric generator (RTG), otherwise know as nuclear battery, does not emit steam. Scientists have been using them in satellites for years.
It is amazing how many morons are out there.
I think this is brilliant, how many times have you had to replace expensive Lithium Ion batteries, every couple of years??? With fuel cell technology you can have a source whose shelf life is much much longer. Meaning those batteries you have in your flashlight sitting in the drawer go bad after only a year of sitting around, the fuel cell is still going...
Also you won't have to worry that as time goes by your rechargeable battery won't take as deep a charge or last as long. This should last the same every time you refill it.
This is big folks why would we not want to keep developing this? Think about all the places batteries are used now, why wouldn't you want to change some of those batteries in for fuel cell technology.
guys, you fail to see the future point here.
Yes, this is mostly useless with mp3 players, but if it ever progresses to car-technology, it would be awsome.
#21 Nice that you put that MSDS sheet in your post . If you actually read it, it gives a health risk of 1. Are you aware of the concentration amounts you would need to have in order for methanol to cause irritation or harm. Go look up the MSDS sheet for sodium chloride (table salt), it has the same health ratting of 1. And you ingest that daily.... Think before you post...
Cheers!!!
No, I think it would be great to have methanol flowing to one's house where one can refill all of one's devices (even car) in mere seconds. Why shouldn't people be seriously considering this? Many houses already have gas flowing... this should be no different.
So if this thing runs on Methanol, what are the chances that Airport security will let you take the refill bottle on the plane? And what about the MP3 player? If they know it has methanol in it, would they confiscate it?
Ooh, another thing comes to mind. Can you overclock the mixture by adding another chemical to it? :P
If so, when this hits the laptop community, you're going to see people overclocking their fuel-cell laptop with strange mixtures, or causing explosions on their pants when it gets too hot. Hahahaha, good times. ^_^
Am I the only person who doesn't mind replacing the batteries? What's so bad about rechargeable batteries?
But hey, it does have some good uses. Maybe it'll help with global warming...we can run it off of cow chips.
http://bravomedic.blogspot.com
Well...The Prectical uses of I aren't really there, but It still is a novel idea. I'd buy It just to fill it up...
Well...The Prectical uses of I aren't really there, but It still is a novel idea. I'd buy It just to fill it up...
Bender from Futurama had the right!!
Why are people so against this? Fuel cell tech has been used in spacecraft (manned and unmanned) for years and years now. It's perfectly safe. Also, recharging it is horrendously easy - just top up your tank. No need to power down and swap batteries, no need to hunt for a power socket. Just inject more fuel.
Li-ion batteries are extremely dangerous when shorted out, just like any other battery. Regardless of your method of energy storage, if the energy is uncontrollably released, then 'boom'. Car batteries, lead acid batteries, even your regular AA batteries (I've burnt myself once when my car keys shorted some AA batteries in my pocket...), they're all just as dangerous.
so what?
it's no use if the MP3 Player sucks!
If only that methanol container came in white, then they would be 'ripping of Steve' and it would be a brilliant idea. Double the price and market it to the hippie/techie market that thinks that saving the planet involves MP3.
My question is not stylish but how many amp-hours can you get out of this thing? and can you blame fart smells on this thing in the subway? These are the important issues here...
Stuart
Get it to market and I will buy it.
I'll just paint it white to match my iBook....
Seriously, this is the coolest thing I've seen on the gadget blogs in quite a while. Someone needs to get a consumer level fuel cell product to market, so everyone can start improving on it.
Interesting, but I think this won't be the future.
They need to improve current batteries, or create something new.
And why Apple appears in EVERY thread?
And you call fanboys the rest of the people, sure... _
"methanol is highly poisenous. It can cause blindness and death....
...these days you're not even allowed to take a lighter to the plane, can't imagine taking a bottle of methanol."
I took a bottle of Sake on a plane with me back in '02 (and that was Post 9/11). THAT stuff can cause blindness and death (not to mention hangovers and unwanted pregnancies...). I think it even had a higher proof than this stuff....
Kampai!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are so many morons out there. Steve, do you carry around spare batteries that'll give you an extra 12 hours usage? Probably not.
But if i could carry around my MP3 player juice for an extra 300 hours, I'd do it!
To the few here who are intelligent, sensible people, I congratulate you for being able to post in this sea of un-educated Apple fanboys and morons with less in their head than in their iPod Nano.
To me, this signals a change in the way the industry is changing, and to be honest, this sounds like a pretty cool little MP3 player.
Perhaps MP3 'Juice' as it will forever be known (Thanks #7) could be the next thing?
If it's a good player, I'd buy it. No more "Low battery" - bring on "Low Juice!".
I think that most of the posters on this thread are in dire need of a basic chemistry class.
Methanol is absolutely renewable. Reusable cartridges could very easily be designed and standardized, much as AA's and AAA's and the like are today. You could have many different sizes, depending on the application, and the purchase of each cartridge would be given a "deposit" surcharge that would be refundable upon return. They could be returned to the manufacturers to refill and ship back out. The consumer would never come into contact with the methanol (unless they opted for an at-home refill kit, much like consumers do not come into contact with the highly toxic and unstable components of a metal-hydride or lithium cell. Instead of lugging a recharger, you bring extra cartridges. Once standardized, the price would be negligible. Certainly MUCH less than that of a current battery. A battery (voltaic cell) is a self-contained power-generating unit, where the zinc anode gets used up as the manganese ion cathode gets reduced. Once used up, these batteries become useless and landfill materials. Since the "battery" of the future is a fuel cell, the components of the cell are built in to the device itself, and all you have to do is supply the source of hydrogen (methanol). A catalyst removes the hydrogen, which is reacted with oxygen from the air in the fuel cell. Catalysts are not consumed by the chemical reactions that they aid! The hydrogen atoms lose their lone electrons in the oxidation half-cell to form H+1 ions. The electrons then travel through your device's circuit, then into the reduction half-cell, where oxygen atoms gain the electrons and get reduced to O-2 ions. The hydrogen and oxygen ions combine to form H20, pure water. There would have to be a venting system for these devices, both to allow for the intake of O2 and for the release of O2 and CO2 (from the catalytic decomposition of the methane). Methanol is the smallest alcohol (CH3OH), so its decomposition is very efficient. Not much in the way of molecular fragments (free radicals) floating around.
There is research on currently to use depleted uranium as an electrical generator, but not using fission reactions. Decay products from uranium undergo beta-negative decay, which is essentially an electron ejected from the nucleus as a neutron is converted into a proton. The electrons so produced could be directed through a circuit. These beta-batteries do not use electrochemistry, and could power long-term micro-voltage applications very effectively.
As far as the whole airline issue is concerned...if the methanol is at a 30% solution in mL quantities in a sealed cartridge, then there will be no issue whatever with bringing them. They might limit you to the number you can bring carryon to appease the more paranoid and scientifically illiterate among the population, but to put in your luggage? Not really an issue.
This technology is real, it's coming and we will adapt nicely to it. It will generate electricity much more efficiently than our current electrochemical devices do, produce little to no waste, and with a returnable cartridge system, become cheaper as time goes on. No more landfill issues. This is a good thing, people. We need to exit the steam age when it comes to power production, or we will not have enough of our legacy fuels to sustain the expanding technological population of our planet. One day your house will be powered and heated by a combination of fuel cell and solar power. The solar power generates electricity...enough to both power your house and electrolytically decompose water to form hydrogen gas during the day...and at night your fuel cell generator takes care of the rest. You would stay on the electric grid and sell back the excess electricity you make. No more home heating oil or natural gas...it would all be electric. No more widespread outages, brownouts or the like. You would have your own self-sufficient power supply. It's the way we HAVE to go if our society is going to survive in the coming century. Those companies who are heavily invested in fossil fuels had better get on board. Many of them already are.
Hope this helps some! :)
Mark
I think that most of the posters on this thread are in dire need of a basic chemistry class.
Methanol is absolutely renewable. Reusable cartridges could very easily be designed and standardized, much as AA's and AAA's and the like are today. You could have many different sizes, depending on the application, and the purchase of each cartridge would be given a "deposit" surcharge that would be refundable upon return. They could be returned to the manufacturers to refill and ship back out. The consumer would never come into contact with the methanol (unless they opted for an at-home refill kit, much like consumers do not come into contact with the highly toxic and unstable components of a metal-hydride or lithium cell. Instead of lugging a recharger, you bring extra cartridges. Once standardized, the price would be negligible. Certainly MUCH less than that of a current battery. A battery (voltaic cell) is a self-contained power-generating unit, where the zinc anode gets used up as the manganese ion cathode gets reduced. Once used up, these batteries become useless and landfill materials. Since the "battery" of the future is a fuel cell, the components of the cell are built in to the device itself, and all you have to do is supply the source of hydrogen (methanol). A catalyst removes the hydrogen, which is reacted with oxygen from the air in the fuel cell. Catalysts are not consumed by the chemical reactions that they aid! The hydrogen atoms lose their lone electrons in the oxidation half-cell to form H+1 ions. The electrons then travel through your device's circuit, then into the reduction half-cell, where oxygen atoms gain the electrons and get reduced to O-2 ions. The hydrogen and oxygen ions combine to form H20, pure water. There would have to be a venting system for these devices, both to allow for the intake of O2 and for the release of O2 and CO2 (from the catalytic decomposition of the methane). Methanol is the smallest alcohol (CH3OH), so its decomposition is very efficient. Not much in the way of molecular fragments (free radicals) floating around.
There is research on currently to use depleted uranium as an electrical generator, but not using fission reactions. Decay products from uranium undergo beta-negative decay, which is essentially an electron ejected from the nucleus as a neutron is converted into a proton. The electrons so produced could be directed through a circuit. These beta-batteries do not use electrochemistry, and could power long-term micro-voltage applications very effectively.
As far as the whole airline issue is concerned...if the methanol is at a 30% solution in mL quantities in a sealed cartridge, then there will be no issue whatever with bringing them. They might limit you to the number you can bring carryon to appease the more paranoid and scientifically illiterate among the population, but to put in your luggage? Not really an issue.
This technology is real, it's coming and we will adapt nicely to it. It will generate electricity much more efficiently than our current electrochemical devices do, produce little to no waste, and with a returnable cartridge system, become cheaper as time goes on. No more landfill issues. This is a good thing, people. We need to exit the steam age when it comes to power production, or we will not have enough of our legacy fuels to sustain the expanding technological population of our planet. One day your house will be powered and heated by a combination of fuel cell and solar power. The solar power generates electricity...enough to both power your house and electrolytically decompose water to form hydrogen gas during the day...and at night your fuel cell generator takes care of the rest. You would stay on the electric grid and sell back the excess electricity you make. No more home heating oil or natural gas...it would all be electric. No more widespread outages, brownouts or the like. You would have your own self-sufficient power supply. It's the way we HAVE to go if our society is going to survive in the coming century. Those companies who are heavily invested in fossil fuels had better get on board. Many of them already are.
Hope this helps some! :)
Mark
I think that most of the posters on this thread are in dire need of a basic chemistry class.
Methanol is absolutely renewable. Reusable cartridges could very easily be designed and standardized, much as AA's and AAA's and the like are today. You could have many different sizes, depending on the application, and the purchase of each cartridge would be given a "deposit" surcharge that would be refundable upon return. They could be returned to the manufacturers to refill and ship back out. The consumer would never come into contact with the methanol (unless they opted for an at-home refill kit, much like consumers do not come into contact with the highly toxic and unstable components of a metal-hydride or lithium cell. Instead of lugging a recharger, you bring extra cartridges. Once standardized, the price would be negligible. Certainly MUCH less than that of a current battery. A battery (voltaic cell) is a self-contained power-generating unit, where the zinc anode gets used up as the manganese ion cathode gets reduced. Once used up, these batteries become useless and landfill materials. Since the "battery" of the future is a fuel cell, the components of the cell are built in to the device itself, and all you have to do is supply the source of hydrogen (methanol). A catalyst removes the hydrogen, which is reacted with oxygen from the air in the fuel cell. Catalysts are not consumed by the chemical reactions that they aid! The hydrogen atoms lose their lone electrons in the oxidation half-cell to form H+1 ions. The electrons then travel through your device's circuit, then into the reduction half-cell, where oxygen atoms gain the electrons and get reduced to O-2 ions. The hydrogen and oxygen ions combine to form H20, pure water. There would have to be a venting system for these devices, both to allow for the intake of O2 and for the release of O2 and CO2 (from the catalytic decomposition of the methane). Methanol is the smallest alcohol (CH3OH), so its decomposition is very efficient. Not much in the way of molecular fragments (free radicals) floating around.
There is research on currently to use depleted uranium as an electrical generator, but not using fission reactions. Decay products from uranium undergo beta-negative decay, which is essentially an electron ejected from the nucleus as a neutron is converted into a proton. The electrons so produced could be directed through a circuit. These beta-batteries do not use electrochemistry, and could power long-term micro-voltage applications very effectively.
As far as the whole airline issue is concerned...if the methanol is at a 30% solution in mL quantities in a sealed cartridge, then there will be no issue whatever with bringing them. They might limit you to the number you can bring carryon to appease the more paranoid and scientifically illiterate among the population, but to put in your luggage? Not really an issue.
This technology is real, it's coming and we will adapt nicely to it. It will generate electricity much more efficiently than our current electrochemical devices do, produce little to no waste, and with a returnable cartridge system, become cheaper as time goes on. No more landfill issues. This is a good thing, people. We need to exit the steam age when it comes to power production, or we will not have enough of our legacy fuels to sustain the expanding technological population of our planet. One day your house will be powered and heated by a combination of fuel cell and solar power. The solar power generates electricity...enough to both power your house and electrolytically decompose water to form hydrogen gas during the day...and at night your fuel cell generator takes care of the rest. You would stay on the electric grid and sell back the excess electricity you make. No more home heating oil or natural gas...it would all be electric. No more widespread outages, brownouts or the like. You would have your own self-sufficient power supply. It's the way we HAVE to go if our society is going to survive in the coming century. Those companies who are heavily invested in fossil fuels had better get on board. Many of them already are.
Hope this helps some! :)
Mark
Sorry for the multiple posts...not sure how that happened. Did not mean for it to get so obnoxious. Sorry again! :)
Mark
Pah! Like I'd give my MP3 player any of my sweet, sweet, highly concentrated methanol!
Let's not forget the most important benefit of fuel-cell technology: after the masses bring about the apocalypse due to their boundless techo-ignorance and superstition, those of us who have adopted fuel-cells will be able to recharge our MP3 players indefinitely using byproducts from our village composte heap, while the idiots kill each other over the last few Duracells on the planet.
instead of just making it the container, make it the same form factor and voltage and put the + and - voltage on the ends like a normal battery. Then there'd be no need for all new devices when you can get the same juice out of the same AA or AAA form factor.
so, you all do realize it costs money every time you charge your batteries, right?
the stuff that comes out of your power outlets? that all gets tallied up, and at the end of the month, a bill comes for the total amount of energy you used. it's usually a lot of money. obviously the amount it costs to charge your mp3 player isn't going to add up to much, but if a bottle of this stuff costs less than $10, and it takes a teaspoon to recharge, that's like 200 charges in a small $10 bottle. that would be pennies per 60 hour charge.
now stay with me here.
if you listened to that mp3 player 24 hours a day, for 365 days straight, you would only have to charge it 146 times. a $10 bottle gets you ~200 charges, and total wireless freedom.
???
i spoke too soon.
turns out pure methanol is about...$1 per liter.
and this fuel cell 'juice' is 30% methanol and 70% water.
so, how many teaspoons are in a liter? that's like years of continuous use for $1.
google search methanol price
They are gonna be sued over this!!! I can hear it now.... mommy my MP3 player exploded in class today. They had to shut down the whole school. Also it would be illegal to fill your MP3 player at school. But I would still buy one!!!
They are gonna be sued over this!!! I can hear it now.... mommy my MP3 player exploded in class today. They had to shut down the whole school. Also it would be illegal to fill your MP3 player at school. But I would still buy one!!!
I applaud all this ignorance! Yes please this is the most dangerous thing ever, you need to protect yourself from it, protest against it rally, talk to politicians about the need to be protected from it.
That way I can secretly (and above all cheaply) invest in this world changing technology, and when against all odds it does become as obvious as an electric plug I'll be on my own island thank you very much !
ohhh this is something innovative. Not life is shuffle whatever.
It's only a matter of time before someone comes up with a flame thrower hack.
"It's only a matter of time before someone comes up with a flame thrower hack."
I was thinking about that myself, but I think you'll actually have to re-distill the methanol for it to be easily flamable. As most geeks do, I have a passing familiarity with arson/infernism (of the purely inocuous type I assure you) and I can honestly say 50/50 rubbing alcohol just DOES NOT burn. 70/30 is kind of dicey, and when left in open air for more than few minutes it won't light either. 90/10 gives you a nice healthy burn if the stuff has enough surface area, but it needs to be pretty well atomized before it will ignite in a stream or spray. Unless you use a VERY hot ignition source. Propane or butan torch at least...zippos and bics won't cut it...
I would imagine that's roughly what you'll find with methanol...but I of course could be wrong...