TiVo - Macrovision red flag seen on cable show

So, after the whole red flag flap the other day, TiVo responded by saying the flag was accidentally tripped by some noise broadcast video signal, and that under normal conditions this would never happen with cable or satellite connections. However, TiVo user Aaron Hurley recently documented the red flag appearing while recording a show over cable from Turner Classic Movies. So… what's the real story, then?

[jk @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

All I can say is thank goodness for MythTV.

[Rick @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

It's already been reported that the noise defense is complete BS. See: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/15/could_noise_cause_a_.html

[indolene @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

What is the point of a TiVo then? They're crippling themselves, and even though I don't own one, it pisses me off.

[apeguero @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

I'm glad I never saw the real value of Tivo...

[steiv @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

All tivo is doing is making themselves more like kleenex, xerox, chlorox(sp), etc. They are going to be a product that is out there, but more in name than anything else.

If someone else can do 'tivo' just as good(if not better) WITHOUT pissing customers off, then why would you still go with tivo?

This is another 'our customers will love us even if we alienate them' strategy that DOES NOT WORK.

[Dan @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

ReplayTV 5040 upgraded to whatever you want.

Everything you could ever ask for in a PVR, and your not shooting yourself in the foot with CSR

[Ian @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

The post linked above discoutning the noise claim shows a singular lack of understaing how VBI data and parsing of the data on line 21 works. It is possible, but highly unlikely for this to happen.

[macbot3000 @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

Tivo knows the Lauren Bacall story would be the hottest Torrent on the net...lol.

[E.R @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

Just use Sima CT-2 GoDVD! Video Enhancer. You never have to worry about copyprotection again :)

[E.R @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

Just use Sima CT-2 GoDVD! Video Enhancer. You never have to worry about copyprotection again :)

[Kel @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

Time to restart the TiVo death watch.

[sr20de @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

I have had the same Sony SVR-2000 series 1 TiVo since 2000. In fact, it was running with its old 40GB HD until a few weeks ago when I finally replaced it with a fat 140GB unit.

If TiVo puts these kinds of restrictions in place, and they have an impact on what I record, I will absolutely cancel my account with them. This will be the end of TiVo, I am certain of that.

[Zerokills @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

Ahh, UltimateTV from Microsoft....how I love thee for not doing crap like this, being alot faster, and having no ads. :)

[mike bridge @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

well, the interesting thing is, trying to record any comcast digital channel you don't have access to (aka gives you the 'call to order' screen) shows up as 7day copy protected, so make of that what you will.

[Mac @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

Thank GOD I didn't get one, almost did with the $49 deal. I'll make my own pvr instead (MythTV).

[john @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

if they are changing their rules I want out of the contract with them including the price of my tivo and my contract for their services

[Bucky the Cat @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

Barb, how dumb are you? "Normal circumstances" as TiVo would define it is *after* the bug is fixed.

As for the rest of you crying, whining babies, here's a news flash: welcome to the future. No CE products that handle video are going to be without DRM. You think MythTV will save you? Wrong again. The video cards will will be required to support the DRM, and if Myth doesn't subscribe and play nice, you won't get the content at all. Do you seriously believe that the media companies can't or won't sue the people who distribute workarounds?

This isn't TiVo, kids, it's The Industry. You can whine and bitch and complain all you want about TiVo, but DRM is here to stay.

And no, this isn't going to be the death of TiVo. The vast majority of the DVR-buying public doesn't know and doesn't care about this issue. They'll buy the product because it does what they want. If they can't keep their PPV for more than a week, they'll live with it. How the hell long can you keep PPV programming without a DVR or a DVD recorder? I guess you could dust off your VCR...

[Andy @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

The story is that Tivo is making itself useless. I wonder why? Isn't timeshifting legal?

This sorta looks like the beginning of the end, unless Tivo has something up its sleeve.

Getting closer to building a MythTV box...

[James Rice @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

I've had tivo for quite a while now... but this stuff is not cool.

[Con @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

In addition to MythTV, there is another open source project called Freevo which I've found to be a pain to setup but easier than MythTV. At any rate, if there comes a day that the networks restrict what I can and can't record, then I'll just stop watching completely and go back to reading books. I have cut my cable service down to tier-1 service which is basically local channels, PBS, shopping channles, C-SPan and MSNBC because I was sick of the contant rate increases and decrease in customer service. I only pay $21 for service and I don't miss all those extended basic channels one bit. 99% of the programming on TV is crap anyway.

[John Sark @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

I dont care for mythtv i wish the geeks would stop telling my about it, i want something easy to use and give as a gift to my family like my mom, sorry geek my mom isnt a geek so she cant set all that up and i dont want to waste my time with all that setup and having to get all the hardware, TiVo is coming to Canada according to pvrblog.com and i plan to sign up iv used tivo in chicago at a cousins and its amazing mythtv dsnt even have all the features tivo has, stop telling me about mythtv ANNOYING!!!!!

[pete @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

"The video cards will will be required to support the DRM, and if Myth doesn't subscribe and play nice, you won't get the content at all."

You sir, are a moron. Do you even know what MythTV is? You can't exactly sue a Linux distribution...

And lets see the media companies try and sue Chinese, Korean, German, or any foreign manufacturer that "distributes workarounds".
There will always be capture cards that do no pay attention to broadcast flags or DRM. There will always be a market for such devices, so such devices will always exist.
There are already numerous devices that take HDMI signals and output unprotected DVI.

[hall @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

I also use this Sima CT-2 GoDVD!

[Keith Russell @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

Pete, I hate to tell you this, but the multinational media cartel already has solutions for everything you mentioned, and more.

MythTV didn't suddenly appear out of the phlogiston. Somebody had to write it. Ask DVD Jon about how J. Random Hacker can get his/her butt hauled into court for doing something Big Copyright doesn't like.

DirecTV sued individuals for possessing smart card equipment on the assumption that they were trying to pirate DirecTV's signals with cracked access cards. So don't think picking up some Taiwanese DRM stripper will work forever.

VESA is working on a new interconnect that will replace both DVI on computers and HDMI on CE kit. It uses key revocation to nullify DRM strippers. Existing outputs will become "legacy" ports that will get, at best, 480p.

Right now, Tivo is getting crushed between ticked-off customers and Big Copyright. Just think of what would happen if Tivo pushed back and said "Your little Red Flag scheme isn't working, and our customers are angry. We're disabling it until you get it right." They'd get sued out of existence, because Tivo would run out of money before they could prove they were right. Either our Tivos will become Linux-powered paperweights, or a Big Copyright-backed VC fund will acquire Tivo, Inc., replace the current balance-seeking executive team with a bunch of sniveling lackeys hand-picked by the MPAA, and our Tivos will be crippled to the point of uselessness.

[J.H. @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

I've always had a problem with Tivo's privacy policy - the reason I have 2 Replay's. Unfortunately the average person is short-sighted and doesn't really care about DRM & privacy issues until it impacts them. Certainly when they go into a Best-Buy, the guy trying to make a sale isn't going to tell them those little tidbits. Sadly, my guess is Tivo will do fine, as long as they can be profitable.

[jason @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

I love our Tivo, but it's stunts like this that made me finally call them up and cancel the service. They tried to talk me into keeping it by offering me two free months, but I told the tech rep that they were being evil and anti-customer and I was leaving. I also politely asked him to record my reason for leaving in my file in the hopes that somebody who has the power to change Tivo's behavior would realize that they lost a customer over this.

I know, I know, I'm just one customer, but if we all did it, Tivo would back down quick.

I feel a chorus of "Alice's Restaurant" coming on....

Jason

[Bob S. @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

Wow, I'm glad I have a nice, abandoned Series 1 Philips that'll never see another software upgrade. You folks who thought Series 2 was worth the upgrade have only yourselves to blame.

Personal to Keith Russell: If your tinfoil hat came with an extended warranty, you can still return it for a new one.

[Bucky the Cat @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

Pete, you need to get a grip on reality.

"There will always be capture cards that do no pay attention to broadcast flags or DRM."

Who is going to make them? How are they going to sell them in the U.S. without being sued out of existence? They won't be able to any more than TiVo can ignore DRM issues. The cards will not allow DRM'd signals through unless the app is licensed, any your app (Myth) won't get a license unless it plays by the rules, and maybe not even then since it is open source and therefore easy to hack.

Yes, people who are determined to copy and distribute material illegally will always find a way. But the mainstream world is going to have to live with DRM until someone decides to wage a major battle with the media industry. I nominate you, Pete. Get out your checkbook and hire some lawyers. I promise to back you up by starting a blog and writing angry denouncements of the various windmills at which you tilt.

Jason, what exactly would you like TiVo to back down from?

[Dave @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

#12: Series 1 TiVos don't get new software upgrades, so you'll be fine.

[Jeff @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

"Who is going to make them? How are they going to sell them in the U.S. without being sued out of existence?"

Someone's never heard of the black market.

How do people sell drugs? I mean, are you living in some fantasy land where everybody always obeys the law and the cops always get their man? If people need to do things illegally, I've got news for you: *they will do what they have to do*. This is reality, and yes, people take this stuff that seriously.

You're delusional if you think the "industry" has *any* control over this. People are going to get what they want. That's the way it is. Will there be some casualties along the way, some people who get sued? Sure, probably. But 99.9% of the people that want their content how they want it, when they want it, will get it on their own terms, and will have nothing to worry about as long as they're smart.

"Yes, people who are determined to copy and distribute material illegally will always find a way. But the mainstream world is going to have to live with DRM until someone decides to wage a major battle with the media industry."

Who decides what the "mainstream" is? Are region-free DVD players "mainstream"? They currently outsell region-protected DVD players worldwide by something like a 5 to 1 margin. These are DVD players that probably break the DMCA and therefore would be illegal under US law. Yet I can buy one at my corner deli for under $50. (And no, the people that use them are not "copying and illegal distributing" anything - you seem to fail to be able to grasp that DRM restricts plenty of legal and legitimate uses of media.)

If *everybody* is breaking the law, what's "mainstream" and what isn't? It seems to me that in that case, it's the law that's outside of the mainstream, not the lawbreakers. And that's where we're headed with DRM.

Yes, there *is* such a thing as a bad law. And the DMCA is surely one of those - I don't consider *anybody* who breaks it to be outside the mainstream. I'd wager most anyone who uses a computer, digital audio player, or DVD player probably breaks it in some way nearly every day.

You can live with your DRM if you want. I, and a lot of other people here, *will not*. It's not a question, it's not even a prediction, it's a fact. We will be the ones that even you admit will "find a way" around DRM. And you will be one of the unlucky few that chooses instead to take it up the ass. Good luck with that, but I won't accept any part in it.

In conclusion, I just have to ask - which DRM manufacturer and/or record label/movie studio do you work for again?

[Bucky the Cat @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

"Someone's never heard of the black market."

You demonstrate great logical capacity in saying this and then three paragraphs later quoting my statement that people determined to get around DRM will find a way.

There is a reason it is called the "black market." It is because it is illegal. There is a big black market for a lot of things. Like marijuana. A lot of people don't think it should be illegal. But it is. You can rant and rave and shake your fist at The Man, but if you sell pot, or crack, or whatever else you, personally, have decided shouldn't be illegal, you are still violating the law. You seem comfortable rationalizing it with the "everybody is doing it" excuse. (The same rationalization used by a wide range of morally-challenged individuals from tax cheats to adulterers to child molesters.) Knock yourself out. Most people don't want to violate the law.

I am in no way bothered by the DRM that TiVo is using -- I haven't seen the bug, and I have no intent to burn PPV or VOD to a DVD. And I don't believe I have some right to own all content that comes over my TV any more than I believe buying a ticket to a movie gives me the right to videotape it in the theater.

So throw your tantrum, stamp your little foot, and then deal with it. Ask yourself: How much is your life really being affected by TiVo's DRM? Then, when you're well-rested, have a look at what Microsoft is up to:

http://www.smartmoney.com/bn/on/index.cfm?story=ON-20050916-000579-0814&nav=pf_h p

Good luck in your battle with the man.

[hobgoblin @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

hmm, 7 days only.

i know one person that would go crasy over that kind of limit and thats my sis.

she is currently going on some 3 week trip and my mom is going to tape every episode of some series while she is gone. as you can see, she would not be able to watch the first week or so of recordings is a tivo was in use instead.

i hate to say this, but it looks as if stallman was correct in his predictions...

[Bucky the Cat @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

Hobgoblin, the intended application of the DRM in question is to PPV and VOD, not broadcast content. A bug is causing it to occasionally show up when it shouldn't. Your sister's shows would record just fine and remain on the DVR until space ran out or she deleted them. In fact, if she had TiVo (or other DVR), your mom wouldn't have to tape anything, your sister could set up a Season Pass and the show would always be recorded automatically and she could set the "Keep until I delete" option to make sure they didn't go away until she had seen them.

There is a lot of kicking and screaming about this issue, but I don't think most of it is really about TiVo since, aside from the bug, TiVos work pretty much the way they always have. I think a lot of people are worried about bigger issues of who controls content and what can be done with it, and no one wants to give up what little control they have been given by devices like DVRs and DVD recorders.

I have a TiVo and I like it a lot. I would hate it if the law or lawsuits by media companies made it less great than it is. But so far that hasn't happened and I don't think it will. The restrictions on VOD and PPV seem like a reasonable compromise to me but, then, they don't affect me much since the DVR (and a DVD player) pretty nicely replaces PPV and VOD for most things.

[Billy @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

What you are seeing is called CGMS-A, it's an analog system of copy control. The content control data rides along with the XDS data on line 21, field 2 of the vertical interval of your video signal.

The Macrovision anti-copy data is inserted on line 16 of the vertical interval.

I haven't seen a Macrovision stripper that would fix the DRM problem the article refers to, as they don't strip line 21, to avoid removing closed captions. I suppose you could build your own.

But it's a rather short term solution, with analog broadcasting ending in 2008. The same restrictions will be placed on digital broadcasting, which will be protected by DCMA, so even if you built a stripper, you couldn't tell anyone how.

[TexARC @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

THE SKY IS FALLING! the sky is falling, the sky is...uhhh.
Oh, wait. I have a series one that I hacked around 5 years ago, with more than 150 hours "best" quality capacity at this point, that I can use on my home network to download ANY video I receive to my various PCs, and burn ANYTHING to DVD whenever I want. Hello, there's no sky falling, in fact, there is no sky, just as there is no spoon.
All you chicken littles? Take the blue pill and get back in touch with reality. TiVo is the red pill, and it *rocks*.

As for MicroSquish's pitiable attempts at a Tivo-quality DVR, you have got to be kidding.... Tivo's Linux open platform also rocks - I haven't rebooted my TiVo in so long that I think it migh have been LAST YEAR. Rock stable. Try that with *any* windows based anything. ROFL, WMP, RBP.

[Zerokills @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

I haven't had problems with my UltimateTV since I bought it back in 2000 and I haven't turned it off since I moved into my current house....over 2 years ago.

How long did it take Tivo to organize the same show in a single folder instead of just listing them consectuively? MS had that from day 1.

I don't have to worry about a privacy policy either. Box doesn't have to be connected to phone line and I don't get charged more if it isn't. So what I watch and what I do is my own business.

[someguy @ Dec 19th 2005 1:25AM]

Just a comment aside. The easiest dodge that I can think of would be to play the video into a DVR and just burn a permanent copy. End of problem. Are you all saying that the one-off machine will somehow have the ability to detect and lock out restricted programming which is emitted by a device such as the TIVO?