Blu-ray vs HD DVD: State of the Division
By Ryan Block 
posted Sep 19th 2005 2:10PM
posted Sep 19th 2005 2:10PM
Here's the background:
Philips's development of the Laserdisc in 1969 yielded many of the technologies Sony carried over and adopted when they eventually partnered with way back in '79 Philips to create a little something called the CD. Both companies were hard at work together once again in the early 1990s on a new high-density disc called the MultiMedia Compact Disc (MMCD -- original name, guys), but their format was more or less abandoned in favor of Toshiba's competing Super Density Disc (SD), which had the vast majority of backers at the time, such as Hitachi, Matsushita (Panasonic), Mitsubishi, Pioneer, Thomson, and Time Warner.
The two factions cut a deal, brokered by IBM president Lou Gerstner, on a new format: DVD. Toshiba wound up on top after the dust settled in 1995/1996, and Sony and Philips, who weren't cut in on the standard (and royalties) nearly as much as they'd have liked, immediately started work on a next gen system. The Professional Disc for DATA (aka PDD or ProDATA), which was based on an optical disc system Sony had already been developing in the side, would eventually become the Blu-ray disc. Toshiba, not to be outdone by its rivals Sony and Philips, also started work on a next gen system, the Advanced Optical Disc, which eventually evolved into the HD DVD. But after thirty-five years of optical audio/video disc development we're back where we were years ago: two money-grubbing would-be standards bearers swiping at one another, threatening to wreak havoc on the consumer electronics industry. Apparently history really does repeat itself.
So here's the technical nitty gritty before we drop the graphs n' charts on you. Both Blu-ray and HD DVD use the same kind of 405nm wavelength blue-violet laser, but their optics differ in two ways. Since the Blu-ray disc has a tighter track pitch (the single thread of data that spirals from the inside of the disc all the way out -- think: grooves on a 12-inch vinyl single vs. an Elvis Costello full-length album with 40 songs), it can hold more pits -- information -- on the same size disc as HD DVD even with a laser of the same wavelength.
The differing track pitch of the Blu-ray disc makes its pickup apertures differ, however -- 0.65 for HD DVD vs. 0.85 for Blu-ray -- thus also making the two pickups technically incompatible despite using the same type of lasers. HD DVD discs also have a different surface layer (the clear plastic layer on the surface of the data -- the part that collects all your fingerprints and scratches) from Blu-ray discs. HD DVD use a 0.6 mm-thick surface layer, the same as DVD, while Blu-ray has a much smaller 0.1mm layer, which enables the laser to focus at that 0.85 aperture.
Herein lies the issues associated with the higher cost of Blu-ray discs. This thinner surface layer is what makes the discs cost more; because Blu-ray discs do not share the same surface layer thickness of DVDs, costly production facilities must be modified or replaced in order to produce the discs. A special hard coating (Durabis) must also be applied to Blu-ray discs to ensure they're sufficiently resilient to protect the data that's a mere 0.1mm beneath the surface -- this also drives the cost up. The added benefit of keeping the data layer closer to the surface, however, is more room for extra layers, and way more potential data than HD DVD.
Still with us? No? Blu-ray discs are more expensive, but hold more data -- there, that's all.
So now that you know why Blu-ray discs cost more and why Sony / Philips and Toshiba are all harshing on one another so much, we can get to the really important stuff: the numbers and who's supporting who.
Update (2.15.2008): Obviously a lot's gone down in the past couple of years, specifically with regard to format support. Granted, both Blu and Red have gotten a vast number of bit players to join up as members of their respective consortiums, but content is where it counts, and as of early 2008 HD DVD is officially on the ropes.
| Capacity | |||
| Blu-Ray |
HD DVD |
||
| ROM single layer: ROM dual layer: RW single layer: RW dual layer: Highest test: Theoretical limit: |
23.3 / 25GB 46.6 / 50GB 23.3 / 25 / 27GB 46.6 / 50 / 54GB 100GB 200GB |
Single layer: Dual layer: - - Highest test: Theoretical limit: |
15GB 30GB - - 45GB 60GB |
| Codecs | |
| Blu-Ray | HD DVD |
| MPEG-2 Microsoft Video Codec 1 (aka VC1, WMV HD, etc.) H.264 / MPEG-4 AVC Dolby Digital AC-3, DTS, linear PCM Optional: Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD |
MPEG-2 Microsoft Video Codec 1 (aka VC1, WMV HD, etc.) H.264 / MPEG-4 AVC Dolby Digital AC-3, DTS, linear PCM, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD Optional: DTS HD |
| Security |
|
| Blu-Ray | HD DVD |
| Mandatory HDCP encrypted output ROM-Mark watermarking technology BD+ dynamic crypto (physical layer) Advanced Access Content System (AACS) |
Mandatory HDCP encrypted output (for HD) Volume identifier (physical layer) Advanced Access Content System (AACS) |
| Movie studio support |
|
| Blu-Ray | HD DVD |
| 20th Century Fox Buena Vista Home Entertainment Hollywood Pictures Lions Gate Miramax Entertainment MGM Studios New Line Cinema Sony Pictures Entertainment Touchstone Entertainment The Walt Disney Company Vivendi Universal Games Warner Bros. |
Dreamworks Paramount Pictures Universal Studios |
| Major movie rental outlets *Still awaiting final confirmation |
|
| Blu-Ray | HD DVD |
| Blockbuster Netflix Movie Gallery / Hollywood Video* |
Movie Gallery / Hollywood Video* |
| Nationwide retail and major online support |
|
| Blu-Ray | HD DVD |
| Amazon Best Buy Circuit City Costco K-Mart Target (said to be mostly Blu) Wal-Mart |
Amazon Circuit City Costco K-Mart Target |
| Format founders |
|
| Blu-Ray | HD DVD |
| Sony Corporation Royal Philips Electronics |
Toshiba Corporation Hitachi Corporation |
| Companies listed as Members of the Board or Managing Members |
|
| Blu-Ray | HD DVD |
| Apple, Inc. Dell, Inc. Hewlett Packard Company Hitachi, Ltd. LG Electronics Inc. Mitsubishi Electric Corporation Panasonic (Matsushita Electric) Pioneer Corporation Royal Philips Electronics Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. Sharp Corporation Sony Corporation Sun Microsystems TDK Corporation Thomson Twentieth Century Fox Walt Disney Pictures and Television Warner Bros. |
Memory-Tech Corporation NEC Corporation Sanyo Electric Co. Toshiba Corporation |
| Companies listed as Members, Associate Members, or Contributors (may include duplicates and/or subsidiaries) |
|
| Blu-Ray | HD DVD |
| 1K Studios, LLC Acer Incorporated Adobe Systems Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. Allion Test Labs, Inc. Almedio Inc. Alpine Electronics Inc. Alticast Aplix Corporation ArcSoft, Inc. Arima Devices Corporation ashampoo GmbH & Co. KG ASV Corp. AudioDev AB Avid Development GmbH B&W Group B.H.A. Corporation BASF AG BluFocus Inc. Bose Corporation Brickbox Digital Media Broadcom Corporation Canon Inc. Cheertek Inc. China Hualu Group Co., Ltd. Cinram Manufacturing Inc. CMC Magnetics Corporation Corel Corporation Cryptography Research Inc. Custom Technology Inc. CustomFlix Labs, Inc. CyberLink Corp. D&M holdings, Inc. D-Box Technologies Inc. Daewoo Electronics Corporation Daikin Industries, Ltd. DATARIUS Technologies GmbH Daxon Technology Inc. DCA Inc. Deluxe Media Services Inc. Dolby Laboratories Inc. Dr. Schwab Inspection Technology GmbH Dreamer Co., Ltd. DTS, Inc. Eclipse Data Technologies Elpida Memory, Inc. Esmertec Expert Magnetics Corp. Falcon Technologies International FUJIFILM Corporation Fujitsu Ltd. Fujitsu Ten Ltd. Funai Electric Co., Ltd. GalleryPlayer Media Networks Gear Software General Members Gibson Guitar Corp. Global Machinery Co., Ltd. Gowell Electronic Limited Hie Electronics, Inc. Hoei Sangyo Co., Ltd Horizon Semiconductor. IMAGICA Corp. Imation Corp. Info Source Multi Media Ltd. INFODISC Technology Co., Ltd. Infomedia Inc. Intersil Corporation Iwatsu Test Instruments Kenwood Corporation Kobe Steel Co. Ltd. Konica Minolta Opto Inc. Lauda Co. Ltd. Lead Data Inc. LEADER ELECTRONICS CORP Lenovo LINTEC Corporation Lionsgate Entertainment LITE-ON IT Corporation Macrovision Corp. Magnum Semiconductor, Inc. MainConcept AG MediaTek Inc. Meridian Audio Ltd. MIT Technology Co., Ltd. Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Co.Ltd. Mitsui Chemicals Inc. Mitsumi Electric Co., Ltd. Monster Cable Products Moser Baer India Limited MoSys Incorporated Must Technology Co., Ltd. MX Production Services NEC Electronics Corporation NEC Personal Products Ltd. Nero Netflix Inc. Newtech Infosystems Inc. NexWave Solutions NHK Technical Services, Inc. Nichia Corporation Nikkatsu Corporation NTT Electronics Corporation nVidia Corporation OC Oerlikon Balzer AG Omnibus Japan Inc. Onkyo Corporation Online Media Technologies Ltd. Ono Sokki Co., Ltd. OPT Corporation Optodisc Technology Corporation Origin Electric Co., Ltd. Osmosys SA Pico House Pixela Corporation Plannet Associates PoINT Software & Systems GmbH Pony Canyon Enterprise Primera Technology, Inc. Prodisc Technology Inc. Pulstec Industrial Co., Ltd. Q-TEC, Inc. Quanta Storage Inc. Quantized Systems Realtek Semiconductors Ricoh Co., Ltd. Rimage Corporation Ritek Corporation Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd. ShibaSoku Co. Ltd. Sigma Designs Inc. Silicon Integrated Systems Corporation Singulus Technologies Sonic Solutions Sony BMG Music Entertainment ST Microelectronics Sunext Taiyo Yuden Co., Ltd., Targray Technology International Inc. TEAC Corporation Teijin Chemicals Ltd. Texas Instruments, Inc. The Cannery THX Ltd. Toei Video Company Ltd. Toho Company, Ltd. Toppan Printing Co., Ltd. TOPTICA Photonics AG Trailer Park UmeDisc Ltd. Universal Music Group, Inc. Victor Company of Japan, Ltd. VideACE Inc. Visionare Corporation Yamaha Corporation Yokogawa Electric Corporation Zentek Technology Japan, Inc. ZOOtech Ltd. Zoran Corporation |
Acer Inc. ACSES Co.,Ltd. Ad Seeds Co.,Ltd Allion Test Labs, Inc. Almedio Inc. Alpine Electronics, Inc. Altech Ads Co. ArcSoft, Inc AudioDev AB B.H.A Corporation Bandai Visual Co. BEKO Elektronik Broadcom Corporation Canon Inc. CDN Corporation Clariant Japan CMC Magnetics Corporation Corel Corporation CyberLink Corp D&M Holdings Inc. Daikin Industries Daiko.co,ltd. Daxon Technology Inc. Dedicated Devices, Inc. DigiOn, Inc. Digital Site Corporation Disc Labo Corp. Dolby Labs, Japan Dr. Schwab Inspection Technology GmbH DT Japan, Inc. DTS, Inc. Ebistrade, Inc. Entertainment Network Inc. Exa International Expert Magnetics Corp. Finepack . Co.,LTD Flag,Inc. Fuji Photo Film Co. Fuji Plastic Co. Fuji Seiki Co. Fujitsu Limited. Funai Electric Co. Gear Software, Inc Gibson Musical Instruments GM Records Hamamatsu Metrix co.,ltd. Hitachi Corporation Hitachi Maxell, Ltd. Hoei Sangyo Co. IDE-AVA IMAGICA Corp. Imation Corp Info Source Multi Media Korea Ltd. Infodisc Technology Co. Intel Corporation Itri Jp Co., Ltd Justsystem Corporation Kadokawa Holdings, Inc. Kaleidescape, Inc. Kenwood Corporation Kinyosha Printing Co. Konica Minolta Opto, Inc. Lenovo Japan McRay Corporation Megan Media Holdings Bhd Microsoft Corporation Mitomo Co., Ltd Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Co., Ltd. / Verbatim Mitsui Chemicals, Inc. Moser Baer India Ltd MPO INTERNATIONAL Nero AG NetBlender, Inc. NHK Technical Services, INC. Nichia Corporation Nihonvtr Inc. Nikkatsu Corporation nixbu Entertainment GmbH & Co. KG Oerlikon Japan Co., Ltd. Omnibus Japan Onken Corporation Onkyo Corporation Online Media Technologies Ltd. Origin Electric Co. Outpost FX (AB) International Paramount Home Entertainment Pegasys, Inc. Pico House Co.,Ltd Pixela Corporation Plasmon OMS Sarl Pony Canyon Inc. PonyCanyon Enterprise INC. Proboxx, Inc Prodisc Technology Inc. Protron Digital Inc. Pryaid Records Inc. Pulstec Industrial Co. Q-Tec,Inc. Query inc Ricoh Co. Ritek Corporation Sanken Media Product Co., Ltd. Shibaura Mechatronics Corporation Sonic Solutions Sonopress GmbH Sumitomo Heavy Industries. Ltd Super Vision, Inc. Taiyo Yuden Co. Teac Corporation Teijin Chemicals Ltd. Toei Video Co. Toemi Media Solutions Limited Toho Company, Limited. tokyo laboratory ltd. Toppan Printing Co. Toptica Photonics AG Toyo Recording Co. Transmix Co. Trendy Corporation U-Tech Media Corp. Ulead Systems, Inc. Universal Pictures Vap Inc. Visionare Corporation Warner Home Video Inc. |
Other interesting facts:
- The Nichi Corporation, who holds the design patents to the Blu-ray's laser system, sits as an associate member of the HD DVD Promotion Group.
- Even though Apple sits on the Blu-ray Board of Directors, its DVD Studio Pro software supports authoring HD DVD media.
- Blu-ray, unlike HD DVD, requires a hard coating on its discs because it's 0.5m closer to the surface. The polymer coating it uses, called Durabis, was developed by TDK and is supposedly extremely resilient and fingerprint resistant.
- The Java platform is mandatory on Blu-ray as it's the standard for menus/multimedia (i.e. all Blu-ray systems must support JVM).
- Microsoft, of course, did eventually side with HD DVD -- not surprising, given its number of long-standing IP cross-licensing deals with Toshiba. HD DVD systems continue to run Windows CE.
- The first consumer Blu-ray device in the US market wound up being the Samsung BD-P1000, and not the PlayStation 3 as expected.
I just like the name blu-ray and what it can do compared to hd-dvd. the price will go own in 6 months... so who cares how much it does cost? they already charge $19+ for a DVD.
Sadly my favorite company (mitsubishi) is on both sides, but that is alright as they need to be on both ends!
i think my brain just exploded...then again, i am a llama...
Thats the most thorough and concise summary i;ve read on the subject yet. Thanks. Now, go Blu-Ray go!
I am 62 years old now. I have watched all the "compatabity issues for many years. I was CPV of voice & data com for Gibraltar Savings. I feel that a conversion process such as HDDVD to Blue Ray would involve an additional device needed to be purchased by consumers' such as myself. Knowing the degree of chemistries & physics I have, it should be possible to make a disc that is playable on one side as HDDVD, the other as Blue ray. A move such as this would ease the pain caused by the transition. If a disc is HDDVD & created prior to the switch, it should be eligible for this physical product modification. I think the switch would be much more palatable. All thoughts are welcome!
here's what I don't get:
"Companies listed as Members of the Board or Managing Members: Blu-Ray: Walt Disney Pictures and Television"
yet
"Studios (movie and game) listed as supporting members: HD DVD: The Walt Disney Company"
WTF?
hmmm ... so, this is weird:
Sony helped popularise the DVD format through PS2 even though they didnt directly benefit as much as Toshiba et al...
Now with PS3 they're saying "NO WAY Toshie..not again, this time we're using our format' ...
Great post. This has answered quite a few questions for me and I'm sure a lot of people will find it helpful.
ATI isn't a major company? hrmm.
Blu Ray? HD DVD?
Pah!
UMD is the one media to rule them all!!!
;)
I agree with #2. With a much better potential for capacity and assuming the 0.1mm layer is durable enough to withstand rental abuse, I think we should be supporting the Sony camp with Blu-Ray. Those more expensive production processes will probably be hammered out in the end. Not only is the "HD DVD" name somewhat inappropriate for a disc that could also hold data (instead of just high-def video), but the increase in capacity seems pretty moderate for what will be considered a completely new technology by consumers.
Back when Blu-Ray required a cartridge (before TDK came up with their coating), I bet on HD DVD, but now I say Blu-Ray is the way to go.
What about FVD (http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,115533,00.asp)?
Great Summary! Reading bewteen the lines, in the long run, I see Blu-Ray winning in the US and Europe, and HD DVD winning in the Asian markets.
I am also 100% sure that they will eventually make a variable aperture pickup, and variable target depth laser. In the long run (not too far away), the hardware will work with both formats.
No matter what, take pity on the fool that scratches a Blu Ray disc.
Go Blu-Ray!
-- Elias
Wow, that was the first good summary of the two technologies I've seen. I like Sony's technology better, but in a way I don't want them to come out on top, because I know they'll end up pulling a Sony and being all bitchy about it. Friggin Sony.
Go Blue-Ray!
Ryan, thanks for that thorough and informatative explanation.
I think the public at large will discover the HD media from the next-gen game console they buy, rather than after buying Hi-Def DVD player (the average consumer will be hard-pressed to differentiate a DVD player from an HD/blu-ray DVD player at their local Best Buys; such was the fate of Super-VHS). In that respect, Blu-Ray (from Sony's PS3) will seem to have the lead (Microsoft has said it will support HD DVD for XBox 360, but in a later release).
I think game console-factor is the porn-factor of yester-year (remember Beta vs. VHS) in determining a technology standard.
BK
Though I would prefer Blu-Ray, I'm gonna try and wait as long as I can before commiting to one format or the other. I expect there's going to be a point though where I see a film in the shops and go "I gotta see that in high def!"
Question? So if its all boiling down to High Definition, then whats exactly are we getting on a High Definition disk?, only material recorded by high def cameras or are they gonna magically make all 80's and 90's movies high def. So in summary, are we high definitely gonna get the classics on HD or not?
Great Post! Answered a lot of questions about the two formats.
It's Blu-ray for me - Based on the stats and the support alone!
Blu-ray will go far...
One major benifit that Blue Ray has over the HD-DVD system is that Blue-Ray will come in protective cartridges, like the Minidisc.
Also, the cost difference is a moot point. The cost will drop due to economies of scale (Sony has said that the cost difference between HD-DVD and Blue-Ray will be negligible by release).
I haven't played with HD-DVD, but I have had the opportunity to use a Blue-Ray DVD RW drive. The way that it re-writes to discs is also much like Minidisc; it simply rewrites the TOC instead of making you wait through wiping the entire disc (just a whole lot faster). Sony claims that the read and write speed will increase with the next generation of drives, so it might be more like a super reliable modern Zip Disk (or Syquest if you remember those).
Blu-Ray Rules!
they both have their pros and cons, but I think Sony's DRM scheme is overkill, and they are destroying our chances to be able to do whatever we want with our own media. They have the right to stop piracy, but they shouldn't be allowed to stop me from making back-up copies of my own disks, or transfering my movies to a pmp. I'm all for HD-DVD.
#15: Most movies, certainly ones from the 80s, were recorded on high-definition film. So they'll just go back to that film in their archives and redigitize it for the new HD discs. Or they could already have it archived somewhere at a ridiculous resolution for safekeeping, I don't know.
How did you think you get Terminator 1 and Alien and all the rest on DVD!
What about cost differences, if you can store twice as much on Blu-Ray as HD DVD....does that mean twice the cost? Along with that thought, will the Blu-Ray movies on the shelf be twice as expensive? I'll just throw that one out to the masses.
Once again a great article by engadget. So thorough.
Blu-ray will win for one reason - PS3. And PS3 will do better becouse it has Blu-ray.
Although I am an Xbox guy - if I can have HD movies AND a game console in one - I will do that. Even if I buy an xbox360 I will still buy the PS3 instead of a Blu-Ray player becouse of the cost factor - plus I get to play PS3 games.
Someone at Toshiba should be getting fired for not shoe hammering an HD-DVD drive into xbox 360. They should have given Microsoft the drives for free.
I would like to know one thing on the subject of should i buy a blue ray or hd dvd.
I was really shopping for a blue ray,until I SAW A HD DVD player & disks in the same store were i was shopping for a blue ray products.So I need help to deside were Iam at. 6 mounth ago I brought a 40" Samsung full HD 1080P MODEL LN-T4085F. SO please help me to deside,and which of the two is better quily and picture.
Will you be able to burn to either of them in the near future?
Regarding the launch of the PS3, is the CEO of Toshiba pleased (cell processor) or upset (Blu-ray)? Or is it a wash?
Forget a hybrid device! What better excuse to own BOTH an Xbox 360 (HD DVD Ver) and PS3 – “Honey, we have to own both or I can’t guarantee we can watch that Hi-Def chic-flick you rented” Moowaaaha ha ha ha
I think the 200GB theoretical limit of Blu-Ray (read higher capacity) is the bigger seller. Like somebody else stated, the cost eventually will level off and both disc formats will follow the trend of dropping prices on blank media before long.
my question is, is there any word yet on the longevity we can expect from these drives? i haven't seen any hard data, but both from personal and anecdotal experience, dvd drives had far, far shorter effective lifespans than their precursors did in cd drives. under heavy use, many dvd players and drives can last less than a year before their performance degrades, eventually becoming unuseable, and this has been a problem that's plagued sony since the psx. is this an unavoidable issue with optical drives that use disks of this capacity, because of how much the motor has to work in the drive? or is this shoddy build quality? i want to know if i'm going to have to buy a next-gen format player every 8 months if i'm using it every day. with the expected cost of the lowest priced bluray drives (even the ps3 will release above 450), this may be even more of a problem. thoughts?
I say neither will be win. I see the future of hd movie delivery as mostly online via TIVO or some other sort of dvr system. Once people realize that they no longer need to keep hundreds of disks as with what has happend to music and mp3s there will be no going back. THink about it. Would you rather spend your money on a networked hard drive based device or even a full fledged HTPC that can do so much more. Or would you go with that new blu-ray or hd-dvd player?
Jedda, You have made a very thoughtful and completely useful comment on the Blu-ray vs Hd DVD issue. I am shopping for an HD solution for my parents and after reading your post I've been able to make a clear decision. For my parents, the best decision is a DVR with a satelite that transmits HD programing. Why should they spend a boat load of money on discs and play them on systems that they will have to upgrade later. The cost effective answer is a DVR with an HD TV. Forget the extra costs of the player and discs. Thank you very much as this was very helpful for me and gives me piece of mind.
Best Regards
I think some people here aren't thinking this through entirely.
1. PS3 has no official launch date (could be 2007 even). There are no Blu-Ray players outside of Japan and won't be for some time. Toshiba has stated you'll be seeing HD-DVD ROMs in their laptop by the end of the year and stand alone players either the end of the year or the first of next.
2. The only reason Sony won't compromise is because they want blue lasers to be cheap, so they can leverage their patents on GLV.
3. There's a bit too much emphasis on which game console is using what. The majority of people who are actually buying HD sets right now don't play video games. Maybe their kids do, but they don't. I know of no one outside of a college campus using their game system as their DVD player.
engine ear: "Question? So if its all boiling down to High Definition, then whats exactly are we getting on a High Definition disk?"
Any movie shot on film can be re-scanned at HD resolutions so the only thing slowing down the availability of older movies will be the studios desire to re-scan their entire back catalog. Some forward thinking studios scanned their films at HD (or higher) resolutions when they first converted their films to DVD. These companies will be first to act when rolling out HD content.
Movies shot digitally may or may not be easily HD-ified. "Star Wars Episode II" was shot at 1080P whereas "28 Days Later" was mostly shot on a Canon XL-1S which only captures 530 lines; far lower than the 720 needed for HD. Interlacing will also be an issue. Non-HD digital movies will need to be upscaled and de-interlaced and may not see much improvement.
(I hope I'm proved wrong on this, as I would love to see a 1080P version of "28 Days Later".)
I was about to come on here and put in a vote for blu-ray, but it looks like I don't have to anymore. Maybe it's time to start investing in Sony?
I'm totally on board with Blu-Ray, except for one teeny-tiny little detail, which is New Line's Lord of the Rings aka this generation's Star Wars Trilogy equivalent. Going to have to get a HD-DVD player for that, and probably just get a PS3 for Blu-Ray.
"Most movies, certainly ones from the 80s, were recorded on high-definition film"
Um, most movies, since the down of time, were recorded on film, which is an analog medium. 35mm or better has greater (arguably much greater) resolution than 1080p, but it still has to be transferred to the digital realm. A proper high definition transfer is expensive and time consuming. Many old 35mm films, and even some 60s and 70s films are in 70mm (which is ultra-high definition compared to 80s 35mm) are at risk of being partially or totally lost because the 'high definition' media is degrading and there's just not enough time and money to restore them all.
Dave (#32)
If "28 Days Later" was shot with 530 lines of resolution, wouldn't you notice the degraded resolution quality in big screen of a theater (I saw this movie in the theater the first time around, and I didn't notice a difference in picture quality--but then again, it was a while ago and my memory is a bit hazy about the pic. quality; maybe my memory is hazy because of hazy picture quality?? Now I'm confused...and lost...and alone....Hello?)
BK
I am going to have to agree with jedda.
I think that the future of media is in streaming content, not in a disc based medium. To me it seems like alot of money to be investing in a new product that isnt really that innovative. More space isnt that exciting, to me a vod service with hd content is the the next big step.
BK(#35), 28 days later was shot on an XL1 in MiniDV format, but they did a lot of post-processing to make it look good on screen: see http://www.theasc.com/magazine/july03/sub/
I'll be buying Blu-rays...
that guy is right both are doomed, once we start getting 8MBP cable and such those standars will be dead. Just downloa it off the net just like mp3.
Why is the graphic made to look like an Ameriquain Duke-Em-Out. These are Jappo companies, they should be sumo illustrations
Streaming media for delivery of HD content?
Right.....
We were promised fiber to the curb 10 years ago and it has not materialized yet.
Even if you had a 20mb/ps download speed on a next generation cable modem or DSL it would take you FOREVER to download a 20-40GB HD movie with 5.1 digital sound. Not to mention that people like to archive their movies and be able to pop them in and look at them whenever they like. Even if hard drives continue to double in size every couple of years, it's gonna be a mightly long time before multi terrabyte arrays are considered "affordable" for the masses.
Good summary. Go HD DVD!
Yeah I don't think either will replace DVDs. I see another format coming up killing them both. Variable SD 200 gig flash drives... on the cheap. Only to then be replaced by 500 TB crystal array blocks. Then the AIs take over and we watch what ever they feed us through wireless subcellular ion immersion.
not really.... both format originated in japan, where I believe, the internet connection speed is already faster than 8MBP....
In response to #16 and #21.
I remember reading about a company that many Hollywood studios have outsourced their digitization too that pulls the images off standard film at a resolution that is twice the 1920x1080 size (i don't feel like doing the math). They are being stored as raw files so the studios can use whatever the latest software is at the time to remove film scratches and increase clarity/contrast/lighting.
One thing that wasn't noted in the article, or I didn't notice it, is that HD-DVD will be backward compatible with curret DVD's meaning that the same disc could hold regular DVD as well as HD-DVD content, so it could be used in a standard DVD player or an HD-DVD player. This isn't true for BluRay.
No it isn't. Some propaganda has been produced to that effect, but all that means is that the companies are putting a DVD laser in there with the HD-DVD one. You could have a similar "backwards compatibility" with Blue-Ray.
This shows just how close streaming hd is...
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/guide/hd/
Wow,
What an excellent post! I hope Blu-Ray wins because it is a superior format and I never want to say "HDDVD" again!
It doesn't matter because people are satisfied with DVD. Just like nobody cares that we have both SACD and DVD-Audio to replace CDs, nobody will care about Blueray and HD-DVD.
For some of you, Blu-ray had you at Sony. Stupid, but true.
You should support HD-DVD. First, it is the cheaper and more rugged of the two. Unless Blu-ray movies will look better (and they won't) go with the cheaper technology that will not break as often.
The last DVD standards lasted just a few years before we are not changing. Since change happens more quickly now, go with the one that is backwards comp and probably more future comp as well.
A vote for blu-ray (when thinking about movies) is just stupid. Data storage however would be a different arguement.
BluRay = 1080p
HD DVD = 1080i
End of story. I read sometime ago here in Engadget.
I liked those cartridges. I need them back! (UMD discs looks great with them).
So... the same circular discs...
I prefer this now: http://engadget.com/entry/1234000060046265/
Really both have promise but in the end dvd will be around for aleast 10 more years. just because people still have not got rid of vhs to get dvd it take a long time for peple to upgrade and this is no diff. and if hd-dvd is cheaper it will win because there will never be a movie that takes up 200gb of space that id watch. but we will see but i thin im right i work at a video store and everyday i get people who just got a dvd player. oh yea and i heard u gotta hook ur Blu-Ray up to the net to stop from burning movies what crap if thats true im with hd-dvd cause i love bootleg movies
So, is it possible that within the next few years we can walk into a BestBuy and see a movie on the shelves with three different versions to pick from? DVD, HD DVD and BLU-RAY? It seems like it would never get that far, like retailers who actually have the shelf space will make up what they're going to carry and ultimarely who is going to win. Based off of what I read i'd like to see Blu-Ray come ahead but I can't help but think HD DVD to come out on top. I think a lot of consumers won't know the different and would rather get HD DVD because it has 'DVD' in the name which they're already comfortable with instead of going with a whole new format they've never heard of.
is there any word yet on the longevity we can expect from these drives? i haven't seen any hard data, but both from personal and anecdotal experience, dvd drives had far, far shorter effective lifespans than their precursors did in cd drives. under heavy use, many dvd players and drives can last less than a year before their performance degrades, eventually becoming unuseable, and this has been a problem that's plagued sony since the psx.
The only reliability problem with DVD drives is that they're being made for a lot less money than CD drives ever were. Whole players are going for like $30 these days. Used to be a even a cheap CD player was $100, which is more like $150-200 with inflation.
Screw both of them. Seriously, is everyone out there going to have to upgrade their 100 plus title DVD collections just to get the extra rez? How do you know the scan quality on the new format discs will even be worth it? I've seen so many DVDs with crap scan quality just barely above VHS. Ultimately I hope consumers buy neither because of the ricockulous DRM schemes and the fact that the format they choose may be rendered obsolete by the opposing format. I hope the Chinese come out with their own super format with zero DRM and as soon as it hits critical mass over people here will jump on board because it will be cheap and there will be lots of stuff available on it.
41/ "that guy is right both are doomed, once we start getting 8MBP cable and such those standars will be dead. Just downloa it off the net just like mp3."
yeah... and where are we going to store all that porn? 200gb Blu-Ray Discs.
;]
I want colaboration. 'Why can't they be friends?'
I want the best of both worlds!!!!
But then...Blu-ray kicks ass cos of its capacity.
When will Toshiba learn???? Crappy notebooks in sacrifice for research money that goes no where...
HD-Blu-ray-DVD anyone?
I couldnt give a rat's arse which format wins. Ill tell you why, All this HD-DVD/Blu-ray/Hi-Def nonsense is just the same whored sequels of films and carbon copy shows but with a "better resolution"! The gaming industry is just as bad.
You can have a plank of wood and polish it and then paint it in "nice" colours, but at the end of the day its still just a plank of wood.
I say the industry spend their time and dollar$ on the ACTUAL CONTENT.
DRM can die aswell.
What format allows you to have a movie in DVD format on one side of a disc and HiDef on the other side? That would be best for the movie rental industry.
This was a superb summary of the whole situation! The best and most informed text I've read about the whole BluRay vs HD DvD thing.
In response to #36, the current cost of film to HD conversion is around $50,000 and not a long process.
#52 has a point. It seems the average person doesn't even notice the difference between VHS and DVD, so the general public probably won't jump into another format, when they may have reluctantly just made 'the big move' from VCR.
Even with standard DVDs, as was mentioned, there are so many lousey quality-transfered discs, how many HD-DVD or Blu-Ray discs will have VCR quality, but you won't know till you've wasted your money on the movie?
At the same time, some higher quality tranfer films on standard DVD are already close to their best. Example 1; We have the 1939 movie "The Wizard of Oz". The 'graininess' of the old film is all too obvious, and any higher resolution will, I expect, bring out the age of the film even more so. Example 2; We have (gulp) Gilligan's Island on standard DVD, and even now we can see Mary Ann's moustache (slight but still there)! How much more resolution do we really need?
Don't get me wrong, we watch newer movies too, but for most people the improved quality isn't worth it, and won't be, unless you have a screen a good bit larger than 42 or 60 inches. We have an XGA projector connected to our computer (and a panamorphic lens), and our picture measures 102" diagnal. For our "Higher-Demand" pictures (LOTR, Star Wars, Disney's Dinosaur, ect...) we buy the DVDs from Australia or England, PAL encoding, with about 100 more lines of resolution. Some people can see quite a difference between the two (I do), most don't (go figure?..).
When I get the itch to see all the hairs on Mr. Frodo's rubber feet, I'll sustain myself with 'wait until standard DVD, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray formats are all playable on one drive', then I'll go for it! Then I'm sure it will be worth it!
From Post # 43 -
"Even if you had a 20mb/ps download speed on a next generation cable modem or DSL it would take you FOREVER to download a 20-40GB HD movie with 5.1 digital sound."
Ahh... no. You are incorrect. Full blown mpeg2 HD with sound runs at 19.2 Mbps. With new compression technologies, i.e. Mpeg4 this drops even more.
So with a 20Mbps (Verizon is rolling out FIOS in my neighborhood right now that and will offer 15Mbps for 44.94/month) connection and bettter compression technology you could stream the movie with no delay at all. Who said you need to download the whole file before watching the movie?
Just look at WM9. They can fit an entire HD movie on a single DVD - and it still looks pretty damn good.
I do believe that streaming media if the future - but at least for HD - it is not yet. I think there will be plenty of time for a full product cycle of next gen disks.
GUnit (#64): "What format allows you to have a movie in DVD format on one side of a disc and HiDef on the other side?"
Both HD-DVD and BD-DVD camps have hybrid discs. The HD-DVD solution has one HD side and one DVD side, leaving no room for a label (much like existing dual-sided wide-screen / full-screen DVDs).
The Blu-Ray solution takes advantage of the difference in layer depths between the two formats (.1mm and .6mm) and stacks all three layers on one side. This leaves room for a label, making it obvious to the consumer how to load the disc into the player. (My very near-sighted grandmother has problems reading the tiny text around the centre hole on current dual-sided DVDs).
Press releases for the two hybrid formats:
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2005_05/pr1002.htm
http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/press/2004/bd-dvd.html
By the way, h264 mpeg4 HD compression runs at 8Mbps for full blown 1080p. I am not saying that bluray or hd-dvd will totally fail. I just dont see the market for buying movies on these mediums nearly as large as the dvd market was/is.
As far as the notion that people cant tell the difference between dvd and vhs, there really isnt that much technical difference at all when viewing these two formats on a regular tv set or even when viewing a bluray/hddvd movie on that same set. When people upgrade to HD sets they will easily be very happy with how much better the dvds look and not be all that interested in upgradeing there dvd collection.
However I think that the convienence of downloading or streaming dvd-res movies and eventually hd movies will trump the idea of upgrading a dvd collection.
The future of the blu-ray/hd-dvd is in the arena of outputing your downloaded content to disks and in that sense bluray wins because of sheer capacity alone.
I knew a guy named Blu-Ray in college.
He's dead now.
#68
I don't know what kind of happy dream land you live in, but if you think that you will get a high bandwidth stream to run continuously with no interruption you are smoking crack. How much bandwidth are the servers that are doing the feeding going to have to have to service 1000 people who want to watch different movies at the same time? OC192 or faster? How much RAM are you going to need to buffer 1-2 minutes or more of the movie to account for network glitches?
And what about fast forwarding through the movie, special features etc? The only way that those things will be possible is if you download the movie ahead of time.
As I said before, people want to archive their films and have a copy, streaming services don't offer this.
In all likelihood some sort of quasi hidef streaming thing will develop but the real snobs (you know, the ones who actually spend money) will insist on 1080P movies and want it on replayable media.
Hi I am Dr. TOBOT and I thout that lazers are a RED RAY ??? what the
#72
I do not do crack it is bad for you. You should lay down the crack pipe.
You kind of sound like those guys that look at what technology is available today and then base product sucess on them. If you you were an engineer or technologist you would probably think differently - but then again you probably would not accuse me of using narcotics either.
Products will drive technology - just like the mass adoption of digital video and DVR's have driven manufactures to create or improve products specifically for that product. Do you thik that when they were creating the Specification for HiDef that they said - oh no - there are no current consumer products that wil allow us to sell content on disk to the consumer - we should not do this!
No
They instead created the spec and now products are being built specifically to deliver this content.
To use this specific example (Streaming of HD) one needs to look no further that Verizons Fiber to the home initiative. 20 or 30 Mbps is a drop in the bucket when talking about fiber - that can sustain multi GIGAbytes/sec to a given point on the network. Do you still feel that this will not support the streaming of HD to the home similar to video on demand application s do for cable co's today? Not to mention that buffering can be done simply utilizing many different tequniques and technologies.
But seriously - i dont do crack - honest.
Back to #72 again...
To your last point... about archiving. What about an enviornment that allows your account to travel with you. So if you go to another local - your laptop or another home where the same service is available you just "login" and your content is available.
That would be cool.
At CEDIA, Samsung announced that it intends to develop and market a HiDef DVD player that will playback BOTH of the competiting HiDef formats.
Wonderful summary.
I'll choose Blu-Ray all the way. An obvious choice for present day and future optical storage requirements. And really, who cares what the content is? Isn't it all just data anyway?
still Blu-ray is for me
I hope Blu-Ray wins, but it seems like the average (not very intelligent person) would side with HD-DVD. I believe this because of cheaper prices and just cause its got the letters "D-V-D" in it. I can't wait until I can hold a disc with 80 gigs more than my hard drive (120).
It's gunna be interesting...
You can say "Blu-Ray" at least twice in the time it takes to say "HD-DVD". Life is short - think how much time you'll waste in a lifetime just saying that 5 letter acronym!
I keep hearing people say that HD-DVD is better because it’s cheaper, but as an engineer I must say that it’s not about price, but taking the next big step. The cost has and will always descend. The Blue-Laser is the new wave of laser/media technology. All we have to do is embrace it. Also, for the Lord of the Rings fans, fear not, New Line as well as other HD-DVD supporters will go to what ever format that has the most volume, which will clearly be Blu-Ray (PS3) The only bad part is I wish that Blu-Ray could adopt the HD-DVD name.
#9, Ethan - HD-DVD stands for "High Density Digital Versatile Disc", not "High Definition Digital Video Disc" ;)
BTW, Go Blu-Ray! Sony, win one for once!
Does it really matter? The giant CE guys with deep enough pockets will no doubt make the debate moot by producing a dual-format player, since the laser is the same. Yes, it'll cost more, but we all know how the economy of scale works. The electronics seems to be almost completely the same, aren't they?
Sony wont win this one. Too much precendent. They get stupid with their licensing and it kills EVERY one of their technological superior products...lets count.. BETA, DAT tapes, Minidisc, just to name a few.. the Walkman and the PSX are their only successes and xbox is even eroding the PSX dominance.
Does it really matter? The giant CE guys with deep enough pockets will no doubt make the debate moot by producing a dual-format player, since the laser is the same. Yes, it'll cost more, but we all know how the economy of scale works. The electronics seems to be almost completely the same, aren't they?
Am I the only one who is concerned that HD-DVD players apparently must run Windows CE?? I really don't think forcing hardware manufacturers to use a particular OS is a good idea. It may end up alienating some due to the associated additional licensing costs and also because it limits their choices.
Sure, Bluray prescribes a JVM but that can at least be implemented on whatever OS the manufacturer prefers (WinCE, Linux or their own proprietary OS (the latter possibly being their favourite if mobile phones are anything to go by))
By using the same OS, content developers will have more interactivity options at there disposal because they know the OS will stay the same. I say this is a good thing.
#84.
I thought the ps2 was outselling the xbox 4:1. And i hate the 360 for the very fact that it doesn't measure up as a next generation console. HD-DVD would of won, if MS and Toshiba had 21st century brains.
Sony will win! However, Warner Bros has a vast majority of my favourite shows on DVD.
The article doesn't go far enough with the movie studios. And it is some what wrong. Fox and Disney are exclusive to BluRay. Disney does not support HD-DVD. Only Warner is exclusive to BR, Universal has scaled back their titles and Paramount is sitting on its hand. And Paramount gets on well with Sony, with the success of UMD. And WB is like Sony's archrival in Hollywood.
PS2 is not outselling the Xbox 4:1
Where did you get that figure?
common knowledge my friend. 20m units have been sold from the xbox camp and 80-90m of the ps2.
Should i give you the Japanese figures because they will make you cry.
The gap between x-box and ps2 has closed greatly. It’s undeniable that the ps2’s graphics are inferior to the X-box. To be honest, the Grand Turismo series is the only game that doesn’t show it’s inferiority to the X-box. And who has 4 to 5 years with an almost unlimited budget like Polyphony to make a game. Sony will lose greatly on the launch of the ps3, due mostly to the blu-ray drive with some help from its new cell processor. Financially, the system could make or break them. I’m leaning toward the breaking them side. They’re laying of 10,000 workers between now and 2007. So if you think about it, they’ll be giving away an $800 Blu-ray player for pennies. Microsoft knows this and this is why they adopted the cheaper HD-DVD drives for there 360 systems. I mean think about it, how many people really use there games systems to watch a movie. When the X-box 720 comes out in 2010, I bet X-box will make the transition to blu-ray drives then. It just makes more cost effective since.
So Sony will most likely win the HD format war, but the gaming system wars are another box of Oreos.
what are you talking about?
if anything the gap between ps2 and xbox has widened even more. The xbox is still a loss making unit, and the ps2 is now running at a profit. The xbox might be a powerful system, but they have shit games. Halo is so overrated, and they rushed halo2 and got something totally crap.
Naturally Sony and MS will make a loss on their new units, Sony even more so, however, if Sony wins the next genDVD battle, it will make money from patents etc. As for the new console wars the 360 is such an inferior product. The more powerful system + a cheaper blu-ray player + better games = winner!
Nintendo is going to come 2nd.
BTW, MS has not adopted the cheaper HD DVD drives. It supports it, however, if Blu-ray wins they will be adopting blu-ray. Who said the HDDVD drives are cheaper anyway? This has not been proven! IF anything the PS3 will go on sale for less than $450US, while current HD players are over 1000US.
In my day they didnt use all these fan dangled silvery plastics, we used good ol black vinal, they could play a tune for 20 seconds on low quality, bet none of your fance tehcnolgy can do any of that.
Only joking, but, HD-DVD is better for many reasons,
1.its less exsppensive
2.its easyer to KEEP your sutff on there seeing that it wont get as badly damaged if scratched
3.if your burning anything more then 25gig, then its gonna take at elast a week for home burner when they come out.
4. the player for them is gonna be HELL exspensive(but HD may use the same so that a dud on both sides).
5.ps2 games are costing us $100(au) now but imagine with Blu-ray, ps3 games are gonna be like $130(by the way nintendo revolution is gonna kick your ass sony ps3)
6.Sonys going to ruin it, like it has with so many things.
7.HD-DVD is going to be MUCH faster at play speeds, movies are gonna be lsightly choppy and if not choppy during the movie(blu-ray), the player needs to PREload all the data so it wont ghet choppy so your gonna be waiting for 10mins, already eaten all your popcorn by then, so HD-DVD is gonna be much smother, all thoguht its not TWICE the data hold, HD-DVD will go TWICE as fast because, everybit after a certint amount is worth more then the lower digets,
sony will have to work long to take out ALL of these problems and frankly sony ant up to the job, plus they cant compress anything for shit.
*takes in abig breath*whoa finnaly told you guys some abckround facts. i could ahve writen more, but you wont read it if it get much longer
remebr, sony SUCKS, nintendo RULEZ
AND
to all people that are talking about the console war, the revolution is gonna kick all your ass's.
Seeing that the specs are fairly equal to 360 and ps3(some evern better so HA)(these are reliable leaked specs) and that the revolution has semi virtrull reality, seeing that when you move your hand the cahrecter does so to, so quit suroporting these novilty compaines such as sony and microsoft(who didnt even make windows, they STOLE it)
And to keep things clear, nintendo is the only compinie making moeny from this gen consoles, xbox losses $200 a xbox sold, from the xbox theve lost 2.3million dollers, but seeing billgates is still one of the top thrid richest people in the world ill say it doesnt worry him much.
And while were tlaking about Microsoft, the VP(viceprsdent) said this(direct quote)
"e Peter Moore, Vice President of Microsft's Xbox division, has commented on the Nintendo Revolution's controller. Surprisingly, it's all positive. Details inside.
"I want to give kudos for Nintendo for its attempt at innovation with the new controller," Moore said. He believes that the controller will "bring people in that, as Iwata-san said, are either lapsed gamers or gamers that are intimidated by the complexity of the controller."
"We need to grow as an industry," Moore continued. "Having a simplified controller is one tactic in what is a larger strategic battle we need to face to grow this business." "e
so even microsoft like the revolution
First of all, HD movies could easily be made available on DVD. Last week I saw a demo of NTTs new HDTV H.264 encoder - it was doing 2.2 mbit/s HDTV movies in identical quality as today´s 9 mbit/s.
Which means that you could stream HDTV in realtime with a bog standard ADSL connection. So I guess the shiny disks will be for data backup purposes, and for that Blu-Ray is a no-brainer - twice the capacity at a few pennies more per disk... Also note Dell, HP, IBM and Apple in the Blu-Ray camp.
As to consoles, some 360 developers are already complaining about limitations in storage capacity on the DVD. If you are making a HDTV game on the same storage as you used for standard definition you will get a problem. If MS introduces a 360 version later with HDDVD it won´t matter a bit, all developers have to make their games for the DVD version.
Finally, the requirement of WinCE in HDDVD is pretty shocking - it´s another $15 in cost per device where Linux-based Blu-Ray drives probably only have to pay a couple of bucks for Java. That would probably even out the differences in laser cost right there.
But the main issue is that the electronics companies have to fight the network companies - disk or net? They don´t stand a chance and there is nothing they can do about it. On top of that, the way they are divided with Blu-Ray and HDDVD is the final nail in the coffin! Online distribution has a number of advantages over disks - instant delivery (live) being one of them, removing the need for expensive retailing another, vast choice yet another.
UMD Media was mentioned before, I just want to say that your a complete mef as UMD is just a small DVD disc. You do indeed lick balls.
If you can remebeto whoever said that people will not buy a game consle to watch their movies on, must have forgotten about the ps2.
The ps2, mainly in japan, sold so well because of it's dvd player ability. there were no good games, so if the blu ray fomat get to the point that the dvd was by the time the ps3 is released( which it prob. wont) then i see lots of people buying the ps3 for it's blu ray drive.
Also, it is true that the xbox looks better than the ps2, and it still is on top. The ps3 will look better than the 360, does that mean that the 360 will be on top? no. It really comes down to the games, it always has and always will. whichever system has the best games will win. Which is why i think that the use of a new disc drive that is very expensive is a bad idea.
I belive sony is only using the blu ray in it's ps3 to give it a nice setup in the house hold. I hope there plan works, because if it does not, i feel sorry for them.
And also, the 360 being released as a HD system using a dvd drive is kinda stupid. They obviously were scared to relece along side the ps3 so they decided to come out a year earlier. Then the want to re-relese the 360 with a hd-dvd drive late 2006. This is also stupid imo because the people who will want to use the hd format are going to be the ones who buy it on launch date. I guess microsoft expects us to buy there system again....