Bill Gates sez Blu-ray is "very anti-consumer"

We're not going to get our panties in a bunch when Bill Gates knocks on Blu-ray, being that it's pretty clear which camp Microsoft stands in right now (and why). But even him saying that Blu-ray is "very anti-consumer" isn't super off when you think about it. Microsoft (and Intel, and a number of others) want "Managed Copy" AACS features enabled in next-gen media formats to enable moving content off your disc, and, say, onto your Portable Media Center or XP Media Center PC (also see: VIIV). HD DVD supports this feature, but the Blu-ray hasn't officially required support for this, which means you might only be able to play your hi-def content off an actual disc. Gates went on to say that if they "would fix that one thing, you know, that'd be fine." Ok, fair enough—Blu-ray peeps, you want to hook that up so we can all get on with our format war in an orderly way here?

[Via HD Beat]

[ROG27 @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Bill Gates is a little whining bitch with tons of ulterior motives.

He is a lie.

[Tupper @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Yes Mr. Gates, it is indeed a very black kettle.

[Crazyglues @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

You know actually Bill has a good point here... what good is this media if I can't copy the shit to my Hard drive if I want...

I say yeah can you Blu ray people fix this so i can get back to supporting blu ray disc as the real next disc format for the masses..... lol

[Adam @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Some one please buy bill gates some tissues and so that he can wipe his tears.....Also get him so ex-lax he has been very backed up since google took over....

[zed @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

I guess i missed something. But because this story wont go away, i need to say, I dont get this?? Whats the deal with HD DVD? Is this the same as say, DVD + or DVD -? Or Beta vs VHS?

[Jason @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Yeah, yeah, everbody hates Bill Gates, yawn. The man's right. Blu-ray treats every consumer like a criminal, of course, so does HD-DVD, but even moreso with Blu-Ray. At least HD-DVD will give consumers the option to transfer their data to other mediums of storage. Now, I love the technology and quality behind Blu-Ray, but Sony's going to ruin it just like they did with Beta because it's so closed off and proprietary. Beta had better quality than VHS, but VHS won because it was more consumer friendly. In this case, I think HD-DVD is the lesser of the two HDCP evils (that won't work with my Dell 2405FPW.... *very pissed*).

[Thor @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

yeah.. sounds like a valid reason bill... great to hear that it will be no problem copying my hd movies on to the hdd as I please from my HD-dvd disc�s...
Like thats gonna happen...

[Eternal Sunshine @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

This is just the usual FUD. Managed Copy is part of AACS, which is utilized by both HD-DVD and Blu-ray. So either both will have it or none of them.

And btw, those fine Managed Copys will be DRMd no end and they (the studios and MSFT) actually expect you to pay a fee for MCs on top of what you payed for the disc itself. Strange how Bill forgets to mention these little things...

[Joe @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

lol @ the people bitching just because it's bill gates that made the statement. if it was jobs, they all would be nodding in agreement, 'it's not as user-friendly as the ipod!'

[MadaMadaDane @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

"Microsoft (and Intel, and a number of others) want �Managed Copy� AACS features enabled in next-gen media formats to enable moving content off your disc, and, say, onto your Portable Media Center or XP Media Center PC (also see: VIIV)."

It's important to note that the AACS doesn't 'enable' anything. It disables abilities you would have with non-DRMed media. It's like saying CD-audio DRM "enables" you to move it to your PC, which is doublespeak of the most Orwellian kind--in fact, it's restricting you from moving it to your PC as you choose, and trading that technological ability for an extremely handicapped industry-approved version.

Obviously using positive language ("enables," "protection," etc...) makes it more likely for a buyer to swallow new restrictions, but it's absurd to look at these new restrictions as an expansion of consumer ability.

I know speaking directly about the poster's choice of description often gets comments deleted here at Engadget, but I'm not "calling you out," Mr. Ryan Block--I'm just informing you and readers that your language is somewhat biased, whether you know it or not. And these small differences add up to a future whether a consumer enjoys the rights they currently have, or a future where those rights are 'privileges' that have to be 'enabled' and 'licensed.'

[stryder @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

The article says with Blu-Ray "you might only be able to play your hi-def content off an actual disc". I can think of another alternative - don't buy the thing. Stick with DVDs until they can sell you something that won't screw you.

[jimbob @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

well said madamadamadmadma...dane! its all expected of course. a few members of the public will whinge a little bit, they will be criticised for being against the format revolution, and the pigs will continue to design technologies that line their DRM pockets whilst they tell the rest of the animals keep workin on that windmill...

[jimbob @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

well said madamadamadmadma...dane! its all expected of course. a few members of the public will whinge a little bit, they will be criticised for being against the format revolution, and the pigs will continue to design technologies that line their DRM pockets whilst they tell the rest of the animals keep workin on that windmill...

[totoro @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

I'm sure Microsoft's reluctance to support Blu-Ray has nothing to do with the PS3's planned inclusion of Blu-Ray, and the spectre of movie studios releasing films in Blu-Ray format, which will be playable on the PS3, and not on the Xbox360, which won't even have a next gen drive. Instead, Microsoft is all about protecting us, the consumer.

[J-ENGINE @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

If gates says it's a bad idea, then it most certainly is the "RIGHT" idea.
He needs to go away and take his bloated crash-tastic piece of slothware with him.

[HH @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

The man has his point and I agree with it, even we all hate him. I rather have the rights to do whatever with my discs, than being banned to copy my own stuff. As long as the discs won't delele itself... it's cool with me.

[Rocket Punch @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Yeah, Windows is a very "pro-consumer" product. Try to spend more time fixing your stuff first!

[Mr Snickels @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

And what about wmv/wma files? Damn, these are so user-friendly! You can't edit them, can't convert them(so your mp3 would be able to play them), sometimes they ain't even seekable. Great stuff.

[JP @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

I don't really get this either.
I understand that you can't rip movie or games from the any disk including DVD (at least legally).
But does he say that if someone creates Blu-Ray Disk which contains for example images, user would not be able to copy them?

[Sam @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

HD-DVD requires Digital Rights Management when copying to a PC. Blu-Ray doesn't. How is that anti-consumer, again?

I understand Microsoft wants to:
1. Lock Linux users out of the game as much as possible.
2. Make the XBox360 with its aging DVD standard compete with a PS3 with a Blu-Ray drive.
3. Remove all Java support from consumer devices (Blu-Ray has it, HD-DVD doesn't)

...but using the argument "anti-consumer" is just a lie. It's just a licensing spat, nothing more.

[Woolly Mittens @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

BOTH standards are anti-consumer. That was the whole point of that DRM stuff, wasn't it?

[Crazyglues @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Can someone please give MadaMadaDane his props...

you should write for engadget... that was a nice read and I actually learned something... rare... lol

I don't think anyone can state it better... I think this is the main problem and it will probably decide who wins this battle... of course Blu-ray is not playing fair...

since it will be the format for PS3 - which mean i will have blu-ray in my life no matter what...

I must say though I will need to be able to grab content of the disc one way on another so if they don't let you i'm sure someone will come out with the app that does...

As far as bill gates .. I love bill - he's a Genius, who else could think of copying apples whole O.S. and passing it off as your own, and calling it windows... he took the same operating system and had people re-write the code to do the same thing but with different code.... so he could patent it and call it windows... the guy is a genius... kinda like the kid who made www.themilliondollarhomepage.com

If i could think like this i too would be rich.. So when bill talks I listen because you never know if he is pulling the rug from under your foot like he did with the IBM people when he said " yeah you can get the O.S. for your computer but i want to keep the rights to the O.S. "

or if he is just speaking that genius talk because his mind works different he will out smart you... lol it's chess not checkers... and bill knows that.

[Whuh? @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

It's one thing to make opinion, but making a valid opinion is another. Calling names is just stupid and it just show how bias this thread turn to.

[Ghazi @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050929/sfth060.html?.v=32


here is the scoop from yahoo provided by hp and dell:


Capacity: Blu-ray Disc's capacity is 50GB. This will be available at
launch for BD-ROM, BD-R, and BD-RE. This is 67% more than HD-DVD's 30GB
ROM capacity and 150% more than its recordable storage capacity -- a
critical issue for computer users.

Managed copy: Managed Copy is not a function of the optical disc format,
but a function of the content protection system. The AACS content
protection system, which is used by both Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD, enables
managed copy and network streaming functionality. It is not format
specific.

Hybrid Disc: Blu-ray Disc was the first format to introduce a hybrid
disc that could hold both high and standard definition versions of a
movie on a single disc. The Blu-ray Hybrid Disc is the more elegant
solution as it holds both versions of the film on the same side of the
disc, which provides for easy labeling and greater ease of use for
consumers.

Backward Compatibility: Blu-ray Disc players and recorders can and will
support DVDs through the addition of red lasers in the hardware. In
order to be backward compatible with DVD, HD-DVD must also include a red
laser.

Interactivity: Blu-ray disc is built on BD-Java(TM), which leverages
years of industry investment and experience in the set-top box, PC, and
cell phone industries. BD-JavaTM provides a mature, robust platform for
authoring and delivering unprecedented interactive capabilities to the
user for movies, music, and games. BD-Java was selected over iHD, the
developmental Microsoft technology used in HD-DVD. The BDA carefully
compared both iHD and BD-J, and concluded that iHD didn't go far enough
in providing a compelling feature set beyond DVD, while BD-J offered
studios a much richer palette for providing a compelling interactive HD
experience for consumers, particularly when a player is connected to a
network.


i guess the last part also makes alot of sense sense in conjunction with the cell processor of the ps3 which is also very network oriented. IMHO, sony is providing some seriously network oriented hardware including giga ports

[3rdsun @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

All u apple(steve jobs) ass kissers wake up an smell the shit on ur nose. Mr Gate$ is not the enemy!

[BitSlash @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

I can see where he is coming from. How can he sell Windows media center if one of its main features (that being media ;) )is limited in some fashion? I know it's pretty hypocritical of him to say Blu-Ray is anti-consumer, and he's rolling out with Vista soon, but he's looking out for his software.

[raindog @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Wake me up when I can play either of these formats using mplayer under Linux.

Seriously, I have no non-Linux machines in my home, so until they get over themselves with the DRM or someone cracks it or an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player is as cheap as the $68 DVD player sitting in our rack, the format wars don't mean a thing to me. I don't care whether Gates likes one thing and Sony likes the other, because they're both useless as currently planned.

[Sy @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

raindog does not care about HD quality content. However, most of us do care about HD content and this battle is important. Microsoft is rooting for HD-DVD because they have some control over it(iHD) whereas they have no control over Blue-Ray.

[locknroll @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Gates is right. Who's better quality or whether or not you hate whater Bill drinks is irelivant. Being able to transfer your media to a portable device is better for the consumer. If you don't like that then Jobs will make a low rez copy and sell it to you. How about them apples?

[Jeff @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

"Wake me up when I can play either of these formats using mplayer under Linux. "

Oh, and I guarantee you'll be able to within a month of their release.

I absolutely hate DRM. Of any kind. It is not acceptable to me under any circumstances. And yes, sometimes I get a little worked up about it when I see actualy *consumers* talking about how "necessary" it is. These people are brainwashed to hell and back, and there is no saving them from their future lives as corporate drones.

But there's never been a DRM that people wanted to crack and couldn't. Never. And there never will be either. If enough people want to invest their time and effort into figuring out how to do it, DRM can always be cracked, circumvented, or otherwise worked around. And it doesn't matter whether it's legal or not (which is a pretty ridiculous thing to even have to say, but that's the unfortunate reality of our laws today).

Back in the old days, everybody thought CSS could never be cracked. It was the most secure digital format ever. It would have taken PC's at the time something like 700 years to crack a CSS key through brute force. Well you know what? Now we've got 7 lines of code that will strip CSS off pretty much any disc.

DRM schemes have gotten more advanced over the years but so have those who are doing the cracking. And they're not just writing software, either, they're making hardware too, if necessary. It'll happen.

So I'm really not worried about the DRM, though it does piss me off that it exists. But it won't be effective for very long.

[DICE @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Microsoft's main goal with the XB360 is to make it work within the framework of Microsoft's Media Center PC. Think of the Media Center PC as the "hub" and the XB360 as a client to that hub. Microsoft sees a time when they will have HD-DVD in their Media Center PCs that can stream information (movies, and perhaps even large XB360 games that won't work on DVD9) to the XB360 client over a LAN. This would do two things for Microsoft; it makes the Media Center PC and it's associated OS (which Microsoft sells) attractive to XB360 owners, and it eliminates the problem of the XB360 not having a next-gen optical drive if a Media Center PC is networked to the XB360.

Under such an arrangement however, each device in the chain must be an approved device, or the content will not play on the client.

That's why Blu-ray scares the crap out of MS. What if the Blu-ray group is pissed at MS for their tactics and decides that the XB360 is not an approved device? MS is screwed then. They are stuck with HD-DVD and that's it. If HD-DVD then fails, then the Media Center PC will not be able to stream Blu-ray HD content to the XB360...so a major reason for XB360 owners to own a Windows Media Center PC as a media hub disappears, and Media Center PC OS and software sales disappear along with them.

this is the reason he's whining....

[Black Galaga @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Sheee-it.

Within 2-3 months of Blu-Ray hittin' the streets or HD-DVD a kid from europe or asia will most likely have a handy, dandy tool to rip it to raw data and my man Big-Ray will have bootlegs three for a ten down in the hood.

That's what's really real.

- Black Galaga

[MadaMadaDane @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Jeff, your faith is commendable, but if you haven't noticed, it's been taking longer and longer to crack new protection formats.

The best example? The Syncrosoft protection on Steinberg audio software, which was the biggest trophy (and thus probably had the most hackers around working on it) in the entire cracking world, took what...a year and a half? Two years? The cracking team(!) that actually accomplished the task took so long and it required so much effort that they actually admitted, after it was finished, that if protection improved they would likely elect not to crack it based on the time it took. Not exactly a big vote of confidence from a group of people who were so self-congratulatory that they released an album of MP3s with full cover art and a video documenting their exploits leading up to the crack release.

CSS was a joke, and though it's easy to say so in retrospect, it was still the truth then. The game is totally different now, and if you think PC DRM running in user-inaccessible CPU-integrated space from origination point to display--wholly inaccessible even if someone created custom hardware--is the kind of joke work that people have been dealing with, you're just flying over a very deep chasm riding on clouds of wishful thinking.

I'm just saying, don't tune out during the fight for the verbal right to content by assuming a free market of hacks will equalize everything. A tech arms race is just a gamble, and this is too important to gamble. Copyright is here to protect the public too, and we have to demand a positive protection of our rights to use what we buy--that's the best, and very possibly the only way to reach a fair outcome.

[barney @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

soooo, if i understand the problem HD DVD is a Mercedes that will only drive more than 60 if you buy Texaco-fuel and Bluray is a Porsche that can only go 70.
I will stick with my DVD's... it's a BMW that drives on any fuel at about 170 mph.

[Jonathan N. @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Does anyone else get the urge to beat the living shit out of that little cocky slime bag just from that picture on the article? I just want to slap the bitch with my laptop sending him spinning around before he hits the floor then pants the mofo.

PS- Billy Boy and Napoleon Dynamite ARE NOT funny together.

[jnasato @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

It looks like Bill Gates is going, "HWWOOO~!", and doing some iron palm kung fu move.

He is too cool.

[KirbyMeister @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Meh, it's a pot-kettle relationship. I think we all should stay with DVDs for the time being and only use BD for recording/backup purposes. At least until they stop lining their pockets and understand the concept of a consumer.

Besides - except for giant tv's - you get a bigger picture quality bonus from the jump from interlaced to progressive scan than from the jump from SD to HD. Especially when cable/satellite systems ultracompress the signal to the point in which it looks worse than analog!

[Samuel Lago @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

For all my Support of Blue Ray and loathing of Big US companies, I would so dearly love to see "Big" Bill Gates kick one in the yellow balls of those monkey Jappos @ SONY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[John Doe. @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Hey Sammy. Way to make yourself out to be a freaking moron. Who's the competition that MS is backing? An Asian company. Way to go you racist idiot. So its true that racists have the intelligence of a lower primate. (Which unfortunately is a bold face insult to apes everywhere.) Doubtless the irony is lost on you, you dolt.

[JUSTME @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

>>

This is my first post here in engadget and although i dont feel like this is what i should be doing im gonna criticize one of the readers.

Sometimes when you wanna talk about something you gotta stay neutral, avoiding all the things that may look your statement biased so a little research wouldnt have killed you.

When you say that windows is a copy of the apple OS then you should also say that apple copied his from Xerox in PARC (they were using something called X runnig under unix, if my memory doesnt fail) and since you are a Mac fanboy you may also think that mac came out with the great idea of using a pointing device called �mouse�....well they didnt they also "stole" that idea from Xerox.

So, does that says that his steveness is evil? no, that says that the technology is out there so everyone can use it as they will, windows (on the inside) is VERY different from mac OS and mac OS is VERY different from the PARC OS and if youre thinking that im a MS fanboy then you're wrong but since reading this page is a part of my life now, i would like that not just you but ALL of US do research before posting something because were not writing to let others know that we like M$, MAC or LINUX but were writing to debate about something and you wouldnt go into a debate if you dont know about the subject.

Dont take any of this in a bad way but i would just like that all of us get better with time and were not gonna do this beeing fanboys.

That's all i have to say and excuse my english cuz im from a spanish speaking country.

[Ray Morris @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

#28 "raindog does not care about HD quality content. However, most of us do care about HD content and this battle is important".
Perhaps most of us here care about HD content, but most people in general do not.
Who will win the format war? Standard DVD.
The average person will not want to convert to another format. "What for?" So they'll have to get the latest again and again and again? They're fed up that their DVDs are already supposedly 'outdated', and so would the next thing be. The average consumer is already more than aware of that! Plus, look at the new I-pod (and many other DVD playing gadgets), do 'most people' really care about HD? No. Most people are still buying standard TV sets, HD-DVD 0r Blu-Ray doesn't mean a thing on those TVs. Only a chosen few of us will even bother with anything better than standard DVD, like the Laserdisc cult of the 80s. Hollywood will not make nearly the money on any HD format, as they hope to.

[Crazyglues @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Ok this is for the fool who posted comment number 40. JUSTME first thing you need to do is get a spanish to english dictionary because your an idiot... oh and you should take this in a bad way... because that's how I was saying it...

your an idiot... because you talk about do some research and you don't know a dam thing about what your talking about...

First off i'm a windows user not a mac fanboy.... and mac didn't steal the O.S. from Xerox they where given it, fool, go do your homework, you brain-dead idiot..

Bill gates got a copy of the O.S. by saying he was going to develope software for mac... then he copied and stole the code... idiot....

don't talk about stuff you don't understand, and don't tell someone else to do research when you don't even take your own advice... go get a clue before you waste time posting again.

and I did take your comments in a bad way because when someone who should just shut up... post something stupid like you just did it is a dam waste of time for people who would have rather read something from someone with some god dam sense....

[funkonaut @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

"anti-consumer"?

Is that why I can't play AVIs using Windows Media Player for OS X?

What about the fact that Microsoft hasn't released an updated version of Windows Media Player for OS X since 2003? If Microsoft has their way, you will be required to use a Windows PC in order to play HD-DVD content. That seems pretty anti-consumer to me!

Not to mention that 90% of all websites don't render properly on a browser other than Internet Explorer.

Microsoft is so hypocritical.

[OniHanju @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

Ok, this kinda behavior in the comments section is downright troll-worthy and if anyone had any sense they'd ban your email addresses from this website. We all have a common goal here. Name-calling and arguements on par with a 13-year-old's don't have a place here. Don't verbally attack others and don't lie through your teeth just to try and prove your point. Also, don't go thinking any company (not even your favorite one!) is gonna look out for our (i.e. the consumers) interests. We as the consumer must back those who share our opinions as temporary allies regardless of who and what they are; An alliance of convenience. If you think sitting by and not taking action is the answer, you have that right. But, if you engage in petty foolishness and heckling ... well the door's over there.

[jorz @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

DRM should be called Digital Restriction Management.

Copyright isn't the reason. Restrictive business models are. Case in point, the activation scheme for XP was suppose to be about copyright protection for Microsoft. Save it from all those casual copiers. Your activation won't work on an e-machines PC when you swap out the motherboard unless you call e-machines. Use a generic motherboard? E-machines won't let you activate. Buying another copy of XP or E-machine motherboard so you PC can work sounds like a business model to me. Activation made it possible. http://weblog.infoworld.com/foster/2005/10/11.html#a316

[Brad @ Dec 19th 2005 12:55AM]

"This is just the usual FUD. Managed Copy is part of AACS, which is utilized by both HD-DVD and Blu-ray. So either both will have it or none of them.

And btw, those fine Managed Copys will be DRMd no end and they (the studios and MSFT) actually expect you to pay a fee for MCs on top of what you payed for the disc itself. Strange how Bill forgets to mention these little things..."

STFU and get your facts straight man.

"i guess the last part also makes alot of sense sense in conjunction with the cell processor of the ps3 which is also very network oriented. IMHO, sony is providing some seriously network oriented hardware including giga ports"

You too moron...

Oh btw double sided HD DVDs will have 64GBs of data storage pal...try that on for size..Ahaaahahahaa!!! Heh BR movies will be on 25GB discs using MPEG2 while HD DVD movies will be on 30GB discs using VC-1/MPEG4.

[Andrew Lazetera @ Jan 4th 2006 3:32PM]

Yea, and bill gates, i have "One Thing" for you to fix too...