Lawsuit claims Microsoft knowingly sold defective Xbox 360s
Chicago resident Robert Byers isn't buying Microsoft's claim that "only" 3% of the Xbox 360s that have been sold were faulty, so he's filed a class action lawsuit against the corporation in an Illinois federal court calling for undisclosed damages, litigation expenses, and the replacement or recall of 360 consoles. The suit claims that Microsoft knowingly released a defective product in order to beat Sony (and presumably Nintendo) to market and gain an early foothold in the next-gen console "war." As we've reported several times, users have been complaining that their new Xboxes crash during regular and online play, displaying various error messages or blanking the screen, and that many units have right toasty power bricks. We sure hope this all gets resolved soon, because we are still on hold waiting for customer service to troubleshoot our store-bought 360.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
jaybone317 @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Thank god mine has been workin great this whole time since launch, these horror storries are making me nervous though!
Jesse @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Why does every release of a new console always have problems? Do these companies do real world testing? Like in a real home with and entertainment center and carpet? or is it just in labs? Has it always been this way? Did the original NES have problems or did the SNES? I dont remember.
Matt @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Nintendo consoles have never had these problems, it's mostly been with the PS2 and Xbox 360. Or when working with new ideas, like Sega.net on the Dreamcast.
snackboy @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
so MS releases a console more powerful the 95% of the computers on the market, and every single one of them is expected to be perfect? come one people get a grip. how many appliances ever get purchased en-masse on one day? 400,000 xbox 360 consoles sold on one day!!!! Of course there are bound to be a few machines that don't work. A few bone head users that didn't properly ventilate their machine. And yes, the occasional "scratched" disk.
I fail to understand why articles like a CAL which has been unverified as to its content and legitmacy even sees the light of day in the press (if that is what you call this).
Tell me when they win. Then we have something to talk about!!!
Whisky @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Every product always will have a certain amount of problems once released in the real world. You can test 5-1000 units or 10,000 and i'm sure 1 out of 10,000 could have a defect that probably happen during assembly. Also all the devices use various parts from various manufactures, how can you known that every single part is working correctly you can only trust the company that sold you the part, to have tested it. So many multiple conbinations and variables, you can't guarantee a perfect product.
Now whether Microsoft knew about a defect ahead of time and proceded to deal with it later, is another issue.
OMAC @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
The original Playstation had problems too. It's entirely possible that Microsoft is spot on when it says only 3% of XBox 360s are defective. The only reason this is getting so much attention is because the hype surrounding the XBox 360 and the people with problems are extremely vocal. But to put things in perspective, when my preordered XBox 360 comes in at Gamestop, it better work right or I will be screaming bloody murder too:)
MH @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
There have been problems since the first consoles. I remember constantly blowing into the NES carts to keep the playing. The XBox 360 is a little more sophitsicated that the NES. With increased complexity comes an increase in the number of things that may not work right due to manufacturing defects.
Alex @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Engadget, please stop feeding the troll. Products like the XBOX 360 need space for ventilation and these problems are just overblown hype. It's time for tech sites like yourself to show some sense and explain the realities of a system launch.
Reanimated @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
If they were selling faulty consoles, wouldn't mine be broken?
I had it on for over 12 hours yesterday with no problems at all.
Frank Perez @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Remember in fight club where Ed Norton was an insurance claims agent for the auto companies and he would settle with the victims of defective autos instead of ordering a recall. This is the same thing, microsoft is just waiting until a class action suit comes forward and will settle for an amount which is less then the price of a recall. Thats why they released a limited supply. Instead of using underwriters labs they're testing them with real consumers, its genius!
Jesse @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
3% of the units for the first day is 12,000. That is a pretty big number of units so if even 1% of those people post on the web that is going to look bad to the company. MS should take efforts to mitigate this. Saying people didnt properly ventilate is not an adequate response, when you purcahse an entertainment device but have to hang it by strings from the ceiling that just is unacceptable.
Tommymang @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
"The suit claims that Microsoft knowingly released a defective product in order to beat Sony (and presumably Nintendo) to market and gain an early foothold in the next-gen console war...."
I have never heard before such a nonsense in my life. Only in America!
Reanimated @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Come on #7, you know what the score is here.
MS iz da debil!!!!11
Joe @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
We are all watching brilliant marketing moves in action, and the public is buying it. Any press is good press - first Microsoft successfully created a demand by specifically under-shipping units in its American launch so that people would clamor around this new "it" product. By doing this, they encourage newsworthy price-gouging deals on eBay. There is also the classic foolish crook robbing the local video game store story that happens every time. This successfully gets a lot of media attention and positions the 360 as "the" item this holiday season. Knowing that the public is fickle and has no capacity to care about this stuff unless there is some controversy around it to keep it on top of their minds, they knowingly ship a small percentage of the product with faulty power supplies (easy to replace in a recall). This keeps the buzz going strong (any press is good press) until a week before Christmas when there is a sudden influx of 360's at all the major outlets making sure every kid that wants one will get one this year. And what a bargain $400 is compared to the $2000 they were fetching on eBay earlier in the holiday season.
F'ing brilliant.
daschupa @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
What the crap damages is this guy talking about? Is he emotionally damaged because his PGR3 crashes sometimes? Crap, he would have a better time suing MS for the original xbox controller due to cramps. Anyhoo, I'm going to go sue Sony for rushing the PSP to compete with the DS without making any games for it.
Saffy @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Half of the people posting here don't seem to understand the "watchdog" concept of the press.
To quote www.ire.org, "A crucial duty of a journalist is to serve the public interest by acting as a watchdog on government and business. This duty has become all the more important at a time when governments are restricting the flow of information. At such times, broadcast and print journalists must redouble their efforts to use freedom-of-information laws to obtain public documents and help the public appreciate the value of such laws."
By pointing out problems in product launches, tech journalists are holding corporations accountable and pushing them to always try to do better next time, to avoid bad publicity. Unless you're a lacky working for one of these corporations, then engadget (and others) are doing you all a favor which will lead to better products in the long run, so stop the hatefest on the press.
It's obvious that Microsoft could have done better with the XBOX launch (as Apple could have done better with the Nano, etc.) so let us do our job and use the power of the press to get corporations to produce better products. Otherwise, I don't want to hear any of you complain about the build quality or design flaws of any product. No one is saying Microsoft should be shut down for their mistakes, just that they should own up to them, compensate loyal consumers and get it right next time. Is that such a bad thing? Yesh...
daschupa @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
What the crap damages is this guy talking about? Is he emotionally damaged because his PGR3 crashes sometimes? Crap, he would have a better time suing MS for the original xbox controller due to cramps. Anyhoo, I'm going to go sue Sony for rushing the PSP to compete with the DS without making any games for it.
Jimmy San @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
I bought mine yesterday and when I plugged it in 3 red lights - it never worked - you would think that could be spotted at the factory.
When I called tech support, they made it sound like a lot of the 360s are defective.
Lectoid @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Well, my 360 has worked flawlessly, minus a scratched disk (Target's return policy rocks BTW). My P/S is about 15 inches away from my apartments radiator, but it is sitting out on the open floor. I didn't even know it had a fan until I read it and then put my ear up to it to listen.
I would like to know if this guy has a 360.
EarnRespect @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
one word... Frivolous.
schmee @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
I'm inclined to believe microsofts claims of 3%. The thing is everyone who's 360 doesn't work is going to be screaming for blood over it. While the peoples who's 360's work, well are to busy playing them to care about countering the argument. I'll bet that if averyone who's 360 worked came forward with as much tenacity defending microsoft we wouldn't hear a word from anyone otherwise. They'd just be drowned out.
Jeff @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
"Nintendo consoles have never had these problems,"
Apparently you are not aware of the recall of EVERY SINGLE Nintendo Famicom sold through 1983. Around 600,000 systems. During the time Nintendo was fixing problems with the system (which were a safety hazard), they also were not selling the system in stores - I believe for more than six months.
Look it up; I'm doing this from memory so the details may be a bit off, but that's the gist of it. It cost them hundreds of millions of dollars. The problems were obviously ironed out by the time of the NES release.
But still, these sorts of things *should not* be an acceptable way of doing business. Nintendo did not expect or plan for these problems, and it should not be the kind of thing that a company says "oh well, it's a new product, you have to expect bugs." People aren't paying to be beta testers.
Lectoid @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Jimmy San: When I called tech support, they made it sound like a lot of the 360s are defective.
14,000 is a lot (400,000 * .03)
epp_b @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Maybe if the market hadn't been pushing so hard and everyone wasn't so up-tight about meeting some arbitrary deadline, things like this wouldn't happen.
Lectoid @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Damn, 12,000, mistyped.
Rob @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
I haven't got my X-box yet, but I'm pretty sure that due to Microsoft's evil intentions it would have been defective, can I join the class action?
Nick @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
#2 Jesse wrote:
>>Do these companies do real world testing? Like in a real home with and entertainment center and carpet? or is it just in labs?>Instead of using underwriters labs they're testing them with real consumers, its genius!<<
You're a non-genius Frank. Because you don't realize that companies can't release a product in the US without the necessary safety compliance testing by an authorized entity such as UL. That said, electrical safety compliance testing would probably not uncover a heating flaw in the XBox. And MS would have sent UL a unit whose performance they knew was golden.
klew @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
1. It's basically a computer.
2. It spins a disc, therefore more moving parts and a laser, any of which can hiccup at any time. Don't know about GC, Saturn, or Dreamcast.
3. NES and SNES were cartridge based (similar to flash memory? not sure) and had much less processing power requirements. Look at the old space shuttles running 386 chips, no margin for error there.
4. It's a gaming system.
Nick @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Argh my post got munged, so here is a repeat. Sorry!
#2 Jesse wrote:
>>Do these companies do real world testing? Like in a real home with and entertainment center and carpet? or is it just in labs?
REAL computer companies run their prototypes in 100F-degree+ heat rooms for weeks to test out reliability in conditions worse than real-world. Whether or not MS did this (and properly), only they know.
#9 Frank wrote:
>>Instead of using underwriters labs they're testing them with real consumers, its genius!
You're a non-genius Frank. Because you don't realize that companies can't release a product in the US without the necessary safety compliance testing by an authorized entity such as UL. That said, electrical safety compliance testing would probably not uncover a heating flaw in the XBox. And MS would have sent UL a unit whose performance they knew was golden.
Jon @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
My 360 works great. Don't beleive the hype. The amazing thing about the internet is that any claim no matter how rediculous can be heard by the multitudes. Gotta Love it, but just don't beleive everything you hear.
Google @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
People are idiot to file such claims. Why dont we see class action suits on cars, clothes, shoes, food...everything we buy? Xbox is an acception as stated that when you have a massive launch and no matter how much test is done to check for failure. You will end up with small amount of failure. Give me a break ppl...this is just another way to scam corporations out of money and freebies. And you wonder why the cost of living is going up? Stupid cases like these makes the company lose money and charge us more...gg moron!
g conrad @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
OMG a Microsoft product that is defective! What is the world coming to? Heavens to Betsy we all know that their other products (like windows) are all rock solid. Gimme a break folks. You buy junk from a junk dealer and you expect it to work without numerous flaws? Excuse me I have to guffaw.
seb @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
With electronic devices there is typically a 100% screen for pass fail. I used to work at a well known disk drive manufacturer. Every disk drive leaving the plant was screened. This resulted in typical line yield rates of 90%. Ie this means that 10% of everything built didn't work. Obviously the broken units did not ship, reason being that it's WAY to expensive to ship a BROKEN product and then have to REPLACE it. Yet we still had warranty failures for lots of reasons, damaged in shipment, damaged by dumb ass customers, marginal parts that were not cought by the tests, etc etc.
I'm not a big fan of Microsoft, but even I don't believe that MS knowingly shipped defective products out into the field. ( Buggy maybe, defective no way ). The 360 is a MUCH more complex piece of hardware then a disk drive. If they're seeing a 3% failure rate in the field I would say they are doing very well. Heck anything below 10% failure for a new product like this is pretty good, and the failure rate will steadily decrease as they add more advanced screens to their manufacturing process.
Mick @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
This happens every time a console is released. Anyone remember the PS2s inability to read discs? How about the PSPs dead pixel and broken button problems? Anyone remember having to turn a Playstation up-side-down to get it to read discs?
For the people saying that Nintendo has never had issues with their systems, what about all of the blowing that everyone had to do with the carts to get them to play? What about the crazy hold reset and push power to get the original Zelda's battery backup to actually backup your game? What about the recall for the faulty loading mechanism on the NES?
Everything released, console or not, has its percentage of faulty units. Things get amplified with a new console release because the type of people who are the early adopters are the same type of people who will run to a message board to scream bloody murder.
Killian Gray @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Why the f*$k are you guys defending Microsoft? They clearly shipped a product that has a number of problems. I'm old enough to remember multiple console launches from a number of companies and none of them were as botched as the 360's. I'd love to own a working 360, don't get me wrong, but I don't see any point in denying that a problems exists in the first place. Let's embarass them into fixing the problem so we all benefit from this situation.
Mick @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
#32
What rock were you under during the PSP and PS2 launches?
SuicideNinja @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
I haven't had a serious problem with the 360 since launch. I've had a couple of problems with individual games but nothing major. Call of Duty 2 has presented no problems.
Don't forget that the rushed games can be at fault to.
I also know (from working in PC hardware) that people don't pay attention to airflow, heat, dust, cat hair, dog hair, etc. I'm sure simply the placement of the Xbox 360 are causing some people's problems. After that the problems probably related to shipping.
Don't go by Microsoft's tech support's opinion, or what it "seems" either. Anyone who works in a call center is biased beacuse when they have an angry customer it's a bad day and they remember it. 5 years of call center experience shows me that although the employee may think something is totally wrong with an individual product, he/she misses the overal picture. People don't call you if there isn't a problem first of all. And if you get 5-6 calls in a row about the same problem, you will automatically assume there is a major problem. 6 bad calls out of 80-120 is only 5-7%.
Let's see; in my experience with dealing with mass amounts of hardware:
15% of Maxtor Hard drives I have dealt with have had early failure problems. That's out of a couple hundred. Guess what hard drive the official PS2 is (and most likely the PS3 will have)? I really hope the don't, or I can change it for a different brand. I probably have just been unlucky with them, but my opinion of the brand has waned.
5-10% of IBM laptops I've dealth with have various minor problems. Probably due to shipping. I deal with about 20 every 3 months.
About 80% of Sony products I have owned have had a problem. 7 PS2s, 3 DVD players, 2 Sony DVD burners, 1 CD Burner, 1 Sony Desktop. I have 1 working dvd player and 2 PS2s that are still working since I've had them. Thankfully I was able to fix those PS2s and get rid of them.
I've decided that these things just happen. Consumers get weary, but it's hard to say whether that is deserved or not.
I personally still buy Maxtor, IBM, and Sony products if they are the right price. They aren't my first choice brand (except for IBM laptops).
am @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Don't put a lot of stock in tech support saying a lot of people are having problems. That's all tech support hears, because they're tech support. Very few people call to say, "Hey, everything's jolly good; workin' fine. Bye."
My first Gamecube was defective out of the box, too - something wrong with the GPU (crashed in Monkey Ball of all things ;)). Products have defects, moreso at launch. Next breaking news story: icy roads prove slippery, CAL filed against the weather.
Geoffrey Hamilton @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
My XBOX 360 has had disc read problems with Tiger Woods, PGR3, Call of Duty. More recently it has froze up 5 times this past weekend with Need for Speed Most Wanted. Should I wait till the lawsuit goes through before I get it fixed? How would you approach the situation?
jACK @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Have been using my 360 for about 12 hrs each day since Nov 15. (Thanks hex168.com)
Interesting that Bob is suing for "unspecified damages and litigation-related expenses" when, if he did in fact get a defective unit... MS has been great about replacing them even to the extent of OVERNIGHT shipping both ways:
http://www.varbusiness.com/components/weblogs/article.jhtml?articleId=174401816
Probably not even necessary to repair since, reportedly, over 400k units have shipped with an electronics-low a 3% defect rate:
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1765&Itemid=2
Quick point also that a relatively harsh electronics site has reviewed the 360 and given it a 9/10:
http://www.trustedreviews.com/article.aspx?art=2202
Why do I make these points? Because I'm a gamer and am tired of the flame wars. Competition is a healthy thing - so long as my PS2, Gamecube and 360 don't actually start to "rumble." Such prolific whiny B$, however, is enough to make me sick. Perhaps I can tell that to my boss and get out of here... I'm looking forward to finishing God of War tonight then getting back to PDZ!
Karsunky @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
My regular xbox has always crashed, even before I modded it.
If you're buying a MS product isn't it almost expected to crash? Do they make anything that doesn't?
Gigerm @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Microsoft must have been a dedede! if they didnt think ths was going to happen
Jimbob @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
New products often having teething problems - when there's so many there's bound to be a few problems. The product can be tested as much as posible in the lab - but there's almost always going to be something that crops up in real world usage.
It's also more likely for defective products to appear at the start of manufacturing. Just that 'cause the Xbox360 launch is so big and publicised these are magnified - kind of like the iPod nano problems.
Jay @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
EXCELLENT!
SUE THAT SHIT COMPANY TO THE GROUND AND PUT IT OUT OF ITS MISERY ONCE AND FOR ALL!
CRAPBOX 360 BELONGS IN THE TRASH ALONG WITH THE REST OF THE COMPANY!
ken fager @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Legitimate question:
Are there ANY class action lawsuits for PSPs with dead pixels that Sony absolutely refuses to fix? A screen with dead pixels qualifies as a defective product with other major electronics companies (Nintendo, Apple, etcetera...). I have tried reasoning with Sony but I've been given nothing but the corporate runaround.
gadgetboy @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
What impact does this kinda cr@p have on the legal system over there? Doesn't it get clogged with these kind of trivial lawsuits?
Absolutely ridiculous.
jaysins @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
cap lock does not make you look smart or validate your opinion!!!! retard. A couple of excalation points... that's another story :)
Brian (redban) @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
sue sue sue...
I called wednesday about my 360 freezing up, sent it out Thursday, got it back today.. Microsoft is handling it fine, people need to wash their puzzies.
realistic @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
Of course the lawsuit is frivolous.
Lets be realistic here M$ products are infamous for crashes, bugs, security holes, etc, etc. Why does anyone think this product would be any different???
Additionally, there has been a concentration on the 3% number. Keep in mind that many of these machines are probably wrapped up with a pretty bow setting under a Christmas tree unplayed! This number could go up drastically after the holiday.
bDavid Longhurst @ Dec 19th 2005 2:38AM
my xbox and xbox360 are sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet ....no probs and i love em both and i dont work for microsoft. peace out !