No XP on Intel Macs, but Vista is good to go

If you've been counting on being able to run Windows on those new Intel-based Macs, Apple's not about to make it easy for you -- at least not if you're attached to Windows XP. According to Apple SVP Phil Schiller, the new Macs announced yesterday (those being the Intel iMac and MacBook Pro) may not be able to run current versions of Windows due to the fact that the computers will boot using the Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI), rather than a traditional BIOS (current Power PC Macs use Open Firmware). EFI was developed by Intel and allows a number of advanced features, including the ability to connect to the Internet from a command shell before the OS is loaded. Since EFI was developed after the rollout of Windows XP, it's not supported by the current or earlier version of Windows (it is, however, supported by 64-bit versions, but the new Macs are 32-bit, so it's back to square one). However, all is not lost: Windows Vista will support EFI, and Apple has said it has no plans to directly block Windows from working on the new boxes. So, if you're a Vista beta tester and have ordered a new iMac or MacBookPro, get those install CDs out; the rest of you will have to wait for the official Vista release, or find a way to hack XP to boot using EFI (which we're sure is about to become a major priority of some of you at this very moment).

[drebes @ Jan 11th 2006 6:49PM]

EFI will be the new USB (as in "cool new Intel technology popularized by Apple").

[Baxter Madu @ Jan 11th 2006 6:53PM]

It says here that Gateway used EFI in a media center PC not so long ago. That's XP isn't it?



http://news.com.com/2100-1008-5131787.html
It says here that Gateway used EFI in a media center PC not so long ago. That's XP isn't it?



http://news.com.com/2100-1008-5131787.html

[Kyran @ Jan 11th 2006 6:56PM]

I don't suppose these nifty EFI thingers are going to sport hardware DRM?

*starts searching about the matter*

[Reg Muffet @ Jan 11th 2006 6:58PM]

I actually see a VMWare / Virtual PC solution as far more interesting.



With dual-booting, you have to split your operations between two OSes, whereas with 100% virtualization you can run programs from the two systems more or less alongside each other.



Eg, playing Windows Solitaire while editing in OS X iMovie.



Also, the Virtual PC approach partitions the Windows OS away from critical OS directories, so if a virus / worm / spyware hits Windows, it's less likely to take out your data.

[bv @ Jan 11th 2006 6:59PM]

i'd rather have a peg leg than use a one button mouse for windows.

[Abomb @ Sep 25th 2006 11:41PM]

The new mouses do have right click, scrool ball, and side buttons that work better than any 2 click mouses

[GooMan @ Jan 11th 2006 6:59PM]

I thought vendors (Apple) had the option to enable some sort of legacy portion of EFI that would allow it to emulate a BIOS so legacy OSes could boot (Windows pre Vista).

[Leo @ Jan 11th 2006 7:10PM]

yeah, but how crappy would windows be with only one button... I really wish the new Mac Notebooks had two damn buttons.

[Alcaron @ Jan 11th 2006 7:10PM]

I am still MUCH more interested in someone getting OSX (real OSX, like the whole kit and kaboodle, not just the underlying OS sans the interface) to run easily on a PC.



Unless I'm late to the party and someone has allready done so, in which case....link please! :)

[corbs132 @ Jan 11th 2006 7:12PM]

Awesome! Vista and Mac Dual Boot? nice...

[Jazzman @ Jan 11th 2006 7:13PM]

Suprising they changed them that much. I'm typing this on an Apple Intel Developer box (not the ones released yesterday, the first Intel one that went to developers only) and I've run XP on it from day one (running XP now). Suprising the big change...



Then again that's OS level boot stuff, not stuff we need for dev work... I'm guessing someone will make it work...

[Desides @ Jan 11th 2006 7:14PM]

"It says here that Gateway used EFI in a media center PC not so long ago. That's XP isn't it?"

It's probably XP MCE, which I believe is based on XP Pro. If XP MCE supports EFI, expect sales to increase...

[Ed @ Jan 11th 2006 7:14PM]

Can someone at Macworld go to Microsoft's booth and ask if/when Virtual PC for Macs with Intel is coming out? Are they developing it? Are we looking at 1 year? More? Less? Thanks!

[Matt @ Jan 11th 2006 7:14PM]

Does Linux have EFI support?

Also, "EFI was developed by Intel and allows a number of advanced features, including the ability to connect to the Internet from a command shell before the OS is loaded"

..huh?

[Toneroo @ Jan 11th 2006 7:16PM]

#8, I agree. Who in their right mind would cripple something like this with Windows? It looks like a nice machine and the BSD-based O/S only makes it more attractive as far as I'm concerned.

[Dave @ Jan 11th 2006 7:17PM]

Gooman is right, EFI can emulate BIOS and legacy OSs should boot. None of this is known for the new intel Macs until someone tries and all the stories being posted LIKE FACT, ie. "it CAN use Windows XP" or "it CAN'T use Windows XP" are misguided and below the editoral level of sites like Engadget.

[Chris Becker @ Jan 11th 2006 7:18PM]

I agree with number 8.



I think that people should try to get OSX on the PC. That way I can have all of the Mac goodness on a home-built computer, and not pay alot for only the Mac OS.

[Wes Felter @ Jan 11th 2006 7:21PM]

There is a BIOS backwards compatibility layer for EFI, but I guess Apple didn't include it.



Virtual PC may protect your Mac data from getting wiped out by spyware, but anything inside the Windows environment is still screwed. Thatt's why I don't see virtualization as a big help for desktop security.



People got the full OS X to run on generic PCs months ago; it shouldn't be too hard to Google it.



Come on VMware, at least give us an announcement...

[MarvinK @ Jan 11th 2006 7:22PM]

I think a dual-boot option would be great. I mean, a good percentage of Mac users already use Virtual PC to get by with software missing on their platform. I think virtualization continues to make sense if you need it for solitaire. If you need want a MacBook that runs the latest 3D games (and like pretty much everything else, they come out on PC first), virtualization isn't a solution. I like the idea of a machine that does well for work, games and fun.

[Justin @ Jan 11th 2006 7:26PM]

"Who in their right mind would cripple something like this with Windows?"



So I can play Half-Life 2 on my Mac. =) I'd be fine with dual-boot if it meant being able to rock some HL2 or CS...

[Robo @ Jan 11th 2006 7:27PM]

For fucks sake if you need a two button mouse on your laptop buy a USB mouse.



Whether you like it or not, OS X uses one button, that's why the laptop has one button.

[rob @ Jan 11th 2006 7:48PM]

actually OSX can make use of a 2+ button mouse very nicely. i use scroll wheel mice on all my macs. i dont know why there is so much of an obsession with the one-button mouse in the windows fanboy camp...

[Echo_ @ Jan 11th 2006 7:57PM]

#8, I agree. Who in their right mind would cripple something like this with Windows? It looks like a nice machine and the BSD-based O/S only makes it more attractive as far as I'm concerned.



...its the same goddamn thing as any pc now so its not crippling it.. nice try





and its still a shame they dont put two buttons on the macbookpro who wants to plug in a mouse when your using it on your lap

[Peter Camperton @ Jan 11th 2006 8:02PM]

OSX has very intuitive 2 button functionality. I wish more people would realize that.



That being said I prefer 1 button on a notebook.

[leojsoap @ Jan 11th 2006 8:02PM]

Urr, me not like single button mouse idea, me never use one with OS X & me not want think about one button + ctrl key.



yeah, that's a pretty stupid thing to say, you can plug about any multibutton mouse into a mac, the iMac ships by default with a wired multi as well.



I get by just fine with my one button bluetooth mouse, ctrl click is the same as right click for those who don't know, my hand is on the keyboard for key commands anyway.

[duh @ Jan 11th 2006 8:03PM]

For the complainers about one button mice...please get over yourself. You must have never used a mac or you would know that you can use a modifier key to bring up the contextual menu OR you can use the SAME two button mouse you use on your PC. Most people have no idea what the other button is for anyway! Its just so lame to hear that complaint over and over...

[thomas_h @ Jan 11th 2006 8:04PM]

then how come the Mighty Mouse has two buttons ?!?

[Tom Boucher @ Jan 11th 2006 8:21PM]

For the record, EFI did come out before Windows XP, it was on a few IBM eServer xSeries 380 Itanium servers I worked on back in '99 I think it was. Windows 2000 on IA64 and Windows 2003 on IA64 use it and work just fine. I think Windows XP Chose not to support it on the IA32 and EM64T/AMD64 revisions

[Brandon @ Jan 11th 2006 8:24PM]

Because it's Mighty.

[EvIoNeOn @ Jan 11th 2006 8:31PM]

As a Mac lover, yet gamer, this is my dream, especially since my brother somehow got a beta test copy of vista. I can't wait to get my hands on an iMac, since it's specs seem to be great as per gaming, but...where am I going to get over $1,300 dollars(for the one i would want)?? I guess I'll try even harder to find a job...Until then, I'll have to make more fun desktops ---> http://home.comcast.net/~xmaskitty/Intel_iMac.jpg

[Aerith @ Jan 11th 2006 8:45PM]

Vista beta 2 is rumored to come out late this month or next month which I cannot wait for!



Apple / Mac has been taking their sweet time improving on some things and even though OS X is the greatest OS right now on the market, they will ultimately lose against linux and vista.



Sorry Apple, but the fact is Microsoft is getting off their butt and doing something and just because you got Intel to work with your new machines it probobly wont save you.

[Jimi @ Jan 11th 2006 8:59PM]

I really want to get a macbook to replace my currant laptop, but won't do so until they make one with 2 buttons. It is a breaking point with me. All new macs come with the mighty mouse making it the new mac standard anyway; why have differant configurations for portable and desktop models? It just makes it harder going from your desktop to your laptop because you can't use them in the same way.



And the saying that ctrl key is cood enough is like saying virus and spyware are not problems on PCs because there are programs to prevent them. It may be true but it is still a problem and a major paain in the ass!

[Dude @ Jan 11th 2006 10:22PM]

Hell just wait for the Merom Intel chips that are 64 bits and support virtualization. You'll be able to run both XP and Os X at the same time and switch between the two. There would be NO speed delay like a Virtual PC solution.

[Jonathan Leinwand @ Jan 11th 2006 10:29PM]

I find two-buttons on a trackpad to be annoying. I use a two button mouse when my AI Book is docked and I am using a large screen, but don't miss the two buttons when only using the track pad.

[pete @ Jan 11th 2006 10:34PM]

So Apple has resorted to making it easy for Windows to be ran on their machines to try and bauild their measly 4% market share.

Hmmmm Dual core processors, Intel chips, two button mice standard (maybe). It's beging to show more and more the only big difference between mac and pc is software.

It's a good thing they've got the iPod or they would barely even exist today.

[hoplite @ Jan 11th 2006 10:34PM]

this dumbed down TravelMate 8200(read macbook pro) is PC notebook with one mouse button. If it had two, what would there be to differentiate it? besides price higher. we're talking hardware folks.

[bunch of cows @ Jan 11th 2006 10:56PM]

when will the full version of vista be out anyway!? approx!?

[Seth @ Jan 11th 2006 11:12PM]

I hear that vista only works with one button.

[Mike Ishigaki @ Jan 11th 2006 11:12PM]

Seriously... Who cares about getting the blue screen of death an a brand new MacBook Pro?! The reason Apple isn't blocking Windows on their new computers is because barely anyone would want some nice viruses, poor memory management, and constant End Process dialogs on their new Macs...



Forget this, lets hear about running OS X on the PC!

[MaC01 @ Jan 11th 2006 11:16PM]

wtf?! why the f&*k would you buy a an Intel iMac or MacBook Pro to put windows on it?! sad sad ppl......

[MaC01 @ Jan 11th 2006 11:22PM]

#30, funny that you think that Vista is going to be the death of all other OS's, why is it funny? because many of the features in Vista have been in OS X for YEARS, sorry, but nice try MS.

[Russell Center @ Jan 11th 2006 11:23PM]

#13

I believe there is a version of the LILO boot loader (ELILO) available for Linux, but haven't checked into it.

[Russell Center @ Jan 11th 2006 11:24PM]

#13

I believe there is a version of the LILO boot loader that supports EFI available for Linux called ELILO, but haven't checked into it.



http://freshmeat.net/projects/elilo/

[Brain21 @ Jan 11th 2006 11:33PM]

Forget the mouse issue. Just get a BT 2 button mouse.



*I* would like to know... when running on this laptop, will windows recognize the Command & Option keys as Control and Alt keys in the windows world?



Also, will there be a key that can be recognized as the "Window" key? I use the Window key all the time.



If not, is there software out there that can map keys or key combinations specifically to the window key? Like instead of Window+E could some software translate Ctrl+Alt+Shift+E to the same thing (errr, command+option+shift+E)?

[Alcaron @ Jan 11th 2006 11:48PM]

#17



Those previous people only got it to run by using PearPC, which is an emulator.



I don't want an emulator, I want native support.



I mean it runs natively on x86, obviously, so whats keeping it? The best I could figure is the whole EFI boot crap, I guess if they didn't intend it to be used ona system without EFI they wouldn't bother making it capable of booting from a sytem with a normal BIOS.



But the heavy lifting, i.e. porting OSX and all the untouchable by mere mortals code that comes with it, has allready been done by Apple.



I can only imagine it's just a matter of time before MS actually has some competition in the OS market.



I'm still not sure I'd USE OSX, lack of software is still killer and honestly theres alot of things about OSX I don't like. But it would be nice to have the option.

[PJ @ Jan 12th 2006 12:04AM]

hey...





i was wondering if windows programs would work w/ the new intel macs.. if anyone knows the 100% TRUE answer tothis questoin, please email me at [e-mail]





thank you so much.





-PJ

[OddManOut @ Jan 12th 2006 12:24AM]

Uh...yeah...and ?



I thought the hype and hoopla around macs these days was their "awesome" and stable unix like OS (which I am in no way knocking...). So what would be the point of running Msoft stuff on a Mac ? PARTICULARLY now that they're gonna have intel guts. It will be virtually the same thing as running Vista on a plain PC but cost more...



WHY?!?!?!?



(aside of course from the ubiquitous "Because I/We can!" factor...)

[mike @ Jan 12th 2006 12:32AM]

Apple / Mac has been taking their sweet time improving on some things and even though OS X is the greatest OS right now on the market, they will ultimately lose against linux and vista.



Sorry Apple, but the fact is Microsoft is getting off their butt and doing something and just because you got Intel to work with your new machines it probobly wont save you.



-----



That was vague.. so.. a more agile Apple has to worry about MS catching up to .. Jaguar.. in.. Dec 2006.. and.. Apple just reported $5.7B quarter.. best ever.. and you warn that, Intel can't save them...



Dude...where do I start?



How about you list ONE THING Apple has to worry about with Vista

[play free games @ Jan 12th 2006 12:39AM]

Virtual PC for Mac running natively without emulation would be mighty nice. I'm sure someone is working on it.

[Si @ Jan 12th 2006 2:21AM]

5: "i'd rather have a peg leg than use a one button mouse for windows."



I'd rather have a peg leg than use Windows.