It
shouldn't be surprising that Anything But iPod likes the
Creative Zen Vision:M (there does
seem to be just a little bit of bias in the site's name), and ABi's review of the Vision:M certainly does highlight the
PMP's strong points. Among the features the reviewer liked are the Vision:M's ability to play DivX and XviD, its
"superb" video quality playback, and its "very intuitive" GUI. Their biggest gripe (beyond the fact
that a video-out cable isn't available yet, and the resourceful reviewer had to resort to rolling his own in order to
test this feature)? The fact that the Vision:M isn't mass-storage compliant, meaning you have to run software to upload
content onto the device. But that's not enough to stop them from declaring that it's "everything the video iPod is
and then some." (We did mention that this review is from Anything But iPod, right?)
posted January 20th 2006 9:44AM
thats rubbish bout plays for sure my rio carbon is plays for sure but it still works with my linux system but it will only play drm wma's if u connect it to xp or xp mce
#30 - support section of the creative website will list firmware updates. Here's the summary of the one available for the vision:m
This download contains an improved version of your Zen™ Vision:M's firmware. It enhances your Zen Vision:M with PlaysForSure™ functionality and improves your player's audio, video playback and picture features. For more details, read the rest of this web release note.
PlaysForSure devices enable you to:
Use subscription-based online music services
Enjoy seamless support with any computer running Microsoft® Windows Media® Player 10 and Windows® XP - no drivers or software needed
***Use the drag-and-drop method to transfer songs or files to your player through Windows Explorer***
Use the Sync feature in Windows Media Player 10 to synchronize your player with your music library and playlists.
(asterisk emphasis mine)
There's more details too about how the update improves video playback but I don't think it's necessary to go into detail on that right now.
I doubt that Engadget is consciously in bed with Apple. Maybe some of their contributors, like many MANY other members of the tech-loving populous, have been screwed over by the utter shoddiness of Creative's offerings in the past. As a disgruntled owner of a half-working MuVo, I speak from experience. This is not blind anti-everything-but-Apple ranting, but rather an reasonably cautious nod to a company that has a WAY less-than-stellar reputation.
I have a choice of content providers for my iPod. I can go to any of thousands of retailers nationwide, buy shiny discs that contain un-DRMed, full quality digital audio, convert them to the format of my choice, and listen to them on my iPod.
I'd much rather own my music than rent it.
OK, so if the UMS compliance is fixed that helps. Now, how do I reconcile the fact that iPod has more car adapters, including cool harnesses for difficult cars like my Honda? With Creative, you have to have an input jack or use a third-party FM transmiter? Don't the FM transmitters all suck?
with iPod I can but a dock for my Onkyo receiver so I can control it with my A/V receiver remote.
And Podcasting... can I single-click and download a podcast to a Zen? I noticed that Engadget is an option on Zencast now - that's a good start. Enhanced Podcasts are an iPod-only option, too, right?
I just don't want to be constantly saying "Dang, I could do that if only I had an iPod".
I'm all about sound quality. Which one has the best? Creative or Ipod?
http://us.creative.com/support/downloads/download.asp?sOSName=Windows+XP®ion=1&Product_Name=ZEN+Vision%3AM&Product_ID=14331&modelnumber=&driverlang=1033&OS=10&drivertype=0&Image4.x=16&Image4.y=14
"This download contains an improved version of your Zen™ Vision:M's firmware. It enhances your Zen Vision:M with PlaysForSure™ functionality and improves your player's audio, video playback and picture features. For more details, read the rest of this web release note.
PlaysForSure devices enable you to:
* Use subscription-based online music services
* Enjoy seamless support with any computer running Microsoft® Windows Media® Player 10 and Windows® XP - no drivers or software needed
* Use the drag-and-drop method to transfer songs or files to your player through Windows Explorer
* Use the Sync feature in Windows Media Player 10 to synchronize your player with your music library and playlists.
Important:
* Do not disconnect the USB cable from your player or computer during installation.
Fixes:
* Improves MP3 audio playback quality.
* Improves the smoothness of WMV and AVI video playback.
* Ensures proper functionality when pictures are deleted in thumbnail view.
* Ensures proper video playback functionality when a large number of video files are transferred to your Zen Vision:M player."
The specs on the Vision:M are far superior to anything Apple has put out so far. This is the classic popularity contest at work (think Xbox vs Playstation 2) ... better hardware and capabilities, but one is more popular because of the brand name.
My personal opinion is that Apple has put out some great products, but just not the best products. Creative and Apple's other competitors just need to do a better job advertising and getting their products on the shelves with slightly lower prices. That should be their short-term goal. In the long-term, Apple really cannot expect to compete in any free marketplace. The compatability factor with online mp3/video services, most audio/video formats, satellite radio ... plus their lack of manufacturing power as comparied to the other 99% of the marketplace means that eventually their product will be dust.
The argument taking place is worthless. All of these products work for what most people need them for. As to which one is the best, LOOK AT THE SPEC SHEETS and then use both yourself. Creative is clearly on top as of this moment.
> What idiots. It's kind of sad, really, how desperate they are to make a competing player seem better than the iPod equivelent.
What's sad is that Apple has become the "Microsoft" of MP3 players. It really ISN'T that hard to make competing players seem better, there are a bunch of players that do more, sound better, playback more formats and cost less. But apparently it's going to take a large corporation to go head-to-head with Apple, a brand that the average consumer would be trust-worthy of right off the bat. Alot of people I know have the various Archos players. Why? Because they've seen mine and actually been able to use it in the real world. They've watched gorgeous Divx-encoded movies on it, they've seen it dock quickly and easily with no software.
Your average Joe Consumer is going to go to Best Buy and listen to some corporate-stooge talking head tell them "there's a reason why everyone has an iPod." I'm not sure if it's because the "lemming" mentality has gotten out of control in the US or because Apple uses it's connections to encourange those sales-morons to push it's products; thus creating a never-ending cycle of mediocrity.
The iPod has ONE thing - the scroll wheel. That's it. Well, it does have an absurd amount of accessories - however I don't need all those $40 add-ons because an Archos does most of them OUT OF THE BOX. It even does USB-hosting, how many players out there do that? Could you imagine how cool iPods would really be if you could dock one into another and share files without a PC? Yea, I know - the RIAA, bla bla bla. As long as far more consumer-friendly devices exist, I will ALWAYS choose them over something proprietary such as an iPod.
It's as simple as this - the retailers (and corporate-sponsored websites) are record-label and music industry friendly so they push what benefits them first and foremost. The smart consumer sees past the hype, past what "everyone else" has, and makes the smarter choice. Unfortunately, most American consumers are idiots.
I own a Vision M that I recently bought as a replacement for my trustworthy 20GB Nomad Zen USB 2.0. The guy that sits next to me brought his 30GB iPod with video in today and we compared playback. Though we viewed different content,the Vision M was crisper and richer in details and colors according to both of us. I will add that within the first 2 hours of my using the player - it locked up on me and had to be reset. This also happened to my Nomad Zen approx 12 times in the last 3 1/2 years. At the time it locked I was viewing an 80's music video in MPEG format. I haven't gone back to see if it happens again.
What I would change about the Vision M -
1. Make the touchpad less sensitive (even with the sensitivity at low)
2. Support AC3 audio or downgrade AC3 to something that will play.
3. Offer other colors for the accessories other than white to match the player.
In most things, I have my head so far up M$'s a$$ that I can say they better do something about those polyps. Anyways, I really wanted something that wasn't Apple for a portable music/video player. I wanted the first 2 generations of Creative's player to be decent, they weren't. Now along comes the "M" after Christmas. 2 months after I bought my 5G iPod. I continue to be thrilled with my 5G. The colors are vibrant, it is no problem to copy things from one of my 3 TiVos, after replacing the earbuds, the sound is very good.
Creative took too long here. They are firmly stuck in "me too" land and will only gather niche customers. If this thing had been announced and available before the 5G, Creative would be raking in the dough. Alas, this is not the case. By next Christmas there will be something better.
This is the 3rd or 4th screen comparison I've seen and can only say "hogwash" the 5G's screen is not washed out in the least.
Plays For Sure was M$'s answer to iTunes. Still playing catch up. With Yahoo, Musicmatch, etc. etc., iTunes isn't even challenged.
Which Archos is competitive with this one? Do they even offer a player in the 30-60gig range for around $300-400? I don't want to carry around a $500-1,000 loseable/stealable media player that will be upstaged in a year, obsolete in two, useless in three. Hell, if Sony got their heads out of their holes, they would allow me to record MP3's and MP4's onto UMD's and I'd be toting a PSP!
this is not the same size as the 60gb ipod. it is 33% bigger than the 60gb ipod.
creative zen vision:m 30GB - 18.6mm
apple ipod 60GB - 14mm
"I've seen it and it's not any thicker than a 5g 60gb."
The Creative is .7 inches thick; the 60gb ipod is .55 inches. Not a huge difference, but noticable. The 30 gb iPod is .43 inches thick.
"The none-UMS-compliant part seals the deal. I'm buying an iPod. Damn. I really didn't want to be an iPod lemming."
I don't think the iPod is, either. You can drag files yo it but you can't play them unless you add them in software.
Personally, if I had to choose between this and iPod, I would go iPod because 30 GB is not enough for me.
Hahah, I love all the blind Apple hate around here.
Rage on, rage on. Grrr! I need my play4sure! That format ROCKS HARDCORE MANNNNNNNNNNNNNN.
pros:
- sync with outlook is a big plus. removes the necessity to carry around my pda. makes it more of an all-in-one device.
- i also like the optional wired remote more than the bulky/ugly/screeming-i-have-an-ipod ipod+fm wired remote.
- codec
cons:
- no itrip.
- no scroll wheel (although the new ones aren't as nice as the old ones, but it's still the best design. why doesn't someone make a player with a mouse-wheel type navigation??)
- more complicated to get pod casts (although i refuse to use itunes, so that's not a big bonus [ephpod all the way])
- no 60 gig
I know that ipod's aren't the best musicplayers on the market, but a lot of people are still buying them (because it looks nice and has a kind of status)
In reality it is very difficult to tell people to buy a different HDD-player other then an ipod.
It's like telling people to use Linux instead of Windows because it is accually better and saver...Most people won't do that, so there is no point in critizing
"Apple ipods" since people still see it as the NR.1 !!!
ipods R.U.L.E (not a fan, just like them :P)
Mike, the ipods support outlook syncing
"Sync Album Art, Photos, Contacts and Calendars
Always compatible with Mac OS X Address Book and iCal, iTunes now also supports contacts syncing via Outlook Express or calendar and contacts syncing via Outlook for the PC."
http://www.apple.com/itunes/sync/
I think the review is spot on.
I own several mp3 players. This player (Vision:M), the old Dell DJ, a 5G iPod,an iRiver h320, and Cowans iAudio X5 (I'm a gadget freak) and the only upside to an iPod is the design.
Sound quality, still, is best on the original Dell DJ (as uncool as THAT sounds), but, since it's basically a Creative player, the Vision:M can rank next to it. I do notice more clarity in the DJ's sound, though.
Subscription music services DO come in handy and, given a bit of tweaking and the inclusion of this, an iPod would have more validity. I have no personal desire to own the music I listen to since it never leaves the MP3 player, and if I did, I can still buy it thru those same services for the same price.
iPods are over rated, iffy to handle, sound quality isn't the best, navigation on Creative's players are basically the same, and each design is simply a matter of taste.
Who really gives a damn if it's .2 inches bigger? Sound quality matters.
Oh wow!! A lime green iPod! Oh wait, nevermind.
for playforsure folks out there, and those interested in subscription services, you really can't sell me on that.
I want to own anything I purchase. It's not like cable where or internet service. It makes sense to lose those things once you stop paying, but to have music and own it, that's what I'm all about. I'd rather pay a smaller fee for what I really like and want than pay a higher fee for items I'm not really going to use or take advantage of.
It's like paying for individual health insurance and paying full price for group insurance coverage.
Jon, #28.
No, its a Microsoft problem. Microsoft never supported plays for sure on the Mac. In fact, Microsoft's last update of media player for the mac was in 2003. wmv9 or wmv10 on a Mac? Good luck with that. And in fact, they just announced they stopped all development of wmv and mediaplayer for the mac, throwing it to a 3rd party.
So your SOL if you want to use anything playsforsure on a mac. Blame Microsoft. Its more like "sure won't play" on the mac.
And Yahoo, napster, musicmatch, rhapsody? Whatever, wake me when when Apple drops to less than 80% marketshare in online downloads. I didn't even realize musicmatch was still around.
The subscription model has been around for years. About 10 people use it. And apparently, they all post on engadget ;)
#53/55 -
the zen doesn't have a removable battery either, does it?
as far as the rest of your complaints, most stem from different formats/file types. most people, like me, simply don't care.
i like my 60 ipod because it's one of the smallest 60 gb music players for the money... maybe it IS the smallest, though the gigabeat i believe is right there too. i don't have video on my ipod, i have 50+ gb of mp3s. i don't care about radio tuning because i got my ipod so i dont have to listen to the crappy radio. i don't care about line in because i am not a DJ or something where that matters.
i want a DAP to play audio, be small, hold all my songs, have a long battery life. that's it. the 60 GB seems like it would manage those things better than any competitor at the time i bought it - 60 GB DAPs are weirdly rare, though 30GB is common.
this is why the ipod is successful - most people don't care about all the features you care about.
ones you mention like the EQ and better sound quality - those are features i WOULD like in a PMP, but for everything else, i just wouldn't ever use it... and I don't think most consumers would, either.
I ask this to all the iPod junkies;
how come I got an 5G iPod for Christmas and went through three before having to throw in the towel?
The first iPod was bad right out of the box. When I plugged it in the screen and wheel were a bright white, the iPod made a loud humming noise and got too hot to the touch after 4 minutes. Returned that one.
The second one was better, but got stuck on the "Do Not Disconnect" screen for hours. Even doing a reset was no good. Returned that one.
The third one worked okay but would not be recognized by my computer and iTunes. There are numerous XP users who have this problem on the ipodlounge.com and Apple support forums. All the fixes suggested by Apple and on the forum would not work. Went so far as to totally wipe my hard drive clean and do a totally fresh install of Windows XP SP2 and all the newest USB drivers. Still nothing.
Why is the iPod the first piece of hardware that I've had and can't make it work with my computer? Why are there tons of posts on the Apple support forums with Windows users having this problem? Why does my girlfriend's Zen Micro work perfectly fine with my computer?
I'm not an Apple hater, I just want to not be stuck with having to buy a Mac to guarantee my iPod working.
I have a ipod with video 60gb, and I've held and used a few Vision:m's. The lack of hard drive MSC hard drive support is the deal breaker for me - use PC's that aren't WinXP and Mac's and the portable hardrive role is very important - I will NOT carry around more devices than I need to. It also isn't as well built as the ipod which feels more solid despite being way easier to scratch. All other advantages are as said.
#57 - i got my first ipod for xmas also (though i unfortunately bought it for myself). i didn't have any problems with mine, though. sorry you did. mine works fine with itunes, and it is recognized as a hard drive by my work and home machines...
ghah! mass-storage was my main requirement for getting a DAP/PMP device with storage in the 10's of gigabytes. Back to the drawing board for me.
Looks like the iPod fanboys are starting to get pissed because this player is so much better.
I own a black iPod 5G 30GB and ever since I player around with a demo of the Creative Vision: M at a local Fry's Electronics, I have been regret buying my iPod ever since.
The player just FEELS so much better. And no, it isn't thick at all. For, all of you who are complaining about thickness, you have to experience the player first-hand . It's much better to hold than the iPod, because it's thicker, has smooth edges, and just feels more solid. You'll have no trouble putting it in your pocket.
Also, the screen makes the iPod's look like shit. It has over 4x more colors and is much brighter. I took my iPod next to it and there was no contest: the Vision: M had a better screen.
The navigation can be arguable which one is better, but I like the Zen Vision: M better (also because it had a better GUI). I felt the iPod 5G's ergonomics for the clickwheel weren't right. It felt awkward and a little slippery to hold. The Vision: M felt solid and just right. The touchpad has been calibrated just right and there's tactile "rockers" next to it. I had no trouble navigating at all.
For all of you still complaining about how it "copied iPod's look", get over it. This is a much better device.
Anyone who takes Engadget seriously and not for what it really is, someones severely biased personal blog in tribute of Apple, must be incredibly naive. This is just an example why mainstream america will never accept blogs as a reliable source of journalism.
I actually saw the Zen at CES, and it was pretty cool. The video out changes to 640x480 instead of 320x240.
Unfortunately, Jon, the so called "choices" you name that the iPod doesn't offer, well, pretty much suck. MSN Music? BuyMusic.com? Windows Media Player 10? Give me a break. You call those choices? Even if Apple did offer compatibility with these services, I wouldn't use them because they're sub-par.
And WMA compatibility hardly matters to most of us who care about audio. AAC and MP3 Lame typically beat WMA in sound quality in unbiased listening tests (Hydrogen Audio, for example), and iTunes offers Apple Lossless format if you're really concerned about your bits (which can easily be transcoded back and forth to FLAC with no loss of quality, for those who care about FLAC).
People talk about iPod being proprietary as if PlaysForSure isn't. Wake up. Do you know anything about this company called Microsoft? Guess what: PlaysForSure is proprietary to Microsoft. You get a broader choice of hardware, but Microsoft is still pulling your strings. Get it?
One thing I'd love to see Apple add is a subscription service. Jobs says consumers don't want to rent their music, and in general he looks like he's right. Though I'd like that option. Point for you on that one.
And Syd, the iPod has something much more important than the scroll wheel: they have software integration that ACTUALLY WORKS, including an online music store that DOESN'T SUCK.
The Zen has more battery life. Well, sure. Look how much thicker it is! Apple could make the iPod thicker too and get more battery life. I suppose the market will decide which is more important - size or battery life.
My major gripe about Apple & iTunes is the crappy bitrate (128) in their music store. I refuse to buy music that is so compromised. When will we be able to buy lossless music online?
Nonetheless, this is just another DAP story on Engadget, AKA another lovefest for the Apple haters to dance around and blather on about how stupid iPod buyers are. The joke's on them.
Go ahead and keep your irrational iPod hate burnin', boys....
P.S. Thank you #55 & 57, for cutting and pasting your long list of features NO ONE CARES ABOUT into every Engadget DAP story. Does Creative give you a flat fee for each of your spams?
Maybe you can use your fancy Zen to record an audio note to self: "Self, I need to move on."
Give me the best sound possible, and give it to me at a reasonable price. That's all I as for.
I thought it was a very fair review
Hm...first, they should make it $30 cheaper. Also, does it output 640x480 resolution movies as that when it's output to a television?
The iPod is probably the best player in town (except the Shuffle). However Apple might want to ease the features the machine includes but that are excluded by Apple: quality recording (may it only be mono), possibility to read other audio and video files on the mass storage partition (I have cc audio files on my iPod I want to exchange freely), older models upgrading of functionalities (photos, HD recording, ...). Each update of the iPod should feel like Max OSX, better. It would be a good commercial point for all to think: Apple hardware doesn't become obsolete, they even enhance older models. I'm tired to have to use a third-party USB key for audio recording and file-sharing while I have 40GB in my other pocket... Does anyone from apple read these boards? ;-)
Regarding the Zen Vision:M...
I was in the market for a video mp3 player. I obviously looked at ipods, but after hearing about my friends' experiences with a plethora of problems with their new ipods, I turned to another company: creative. I had a friend who purchased the "Nomad Jukebox Xtra" thing, which was, I will admit, ugly and huge. One thing struck me, however - it was completely reliable! Any problems that my friend encountered with it, she said, were minimal and easily fixed.
After researching the Zen Vision:M, I was a bit worried about whether or not it would be ugly or if it would actually work well. However, I bought it on a whim, and I nervously waited for it.
THIS MACHINE IS AMAZING! I was SO hesitant and SO worried about it (I'm not just a creative "buff" here to claim m y player is the best) but it turned out to exceed all of my expectations. It isn't big at all ... I got a black one which is sleek and beautiful. It is the teeniest bit thicker than an ipod ... but I don't notice/mind it, and plus: I'd rather have a tiny teeny bit more thickness than to have my machine break all the time! The screen is flawless, the sound quality is beautiful, the controls, although it is stated that they are awkward, are actually very useful.
This is a brilliant machine.
Hi, I'm thinking about buying the Zen Vision:M. But USB Mass Storage support would be critical. So far by what I have seen USB Mass Storage is supported by creating a partition (using the device user interface) that can have at most 16 GB in the 30 GB model, and whatever music files that are placed there are not readable by the device, only by the computer which recognizes those 16 GB as UMS. Does the latest version of the firmware adds USB Mass Storage support for the entire device or just for those 16 GB?
I love the Vision M. Just got one from Frys. It is great. I paid $30 more than Ipod $330 but I got 33% more features.
Regarding the space and WMA:
I don't remeber which program I used. But I converted all my MP3's to WMA. They sound great and use like almost half as mush less room as the my MP3s.
So essentially I can store twice as much on my 30GB. So it's essentially like having a 60gb.
And the videos convert to WMA use also a fith or so of my normal MPEGs size. And quality is awsome. Loks just likethe regular video. No loss or pixelated stufff.
And better battery life and sound quality. Also builtin Alarm Clock. So not bad for $30 more.
TDH
I bought a Zen vision M for christmas,
and it is way better for me than the i pod
All my friends have video i pod, and they seem to like mine better, go figure
but overall, i believe this is a good mp3 player,
AFAIK, The Zen doesn't support UMS for uploading media files, even after the firmware update. Instead everything uploaded via UMS apepars in a separate data partition that is not accessible by the player itself.
The iPod is a piece of crap for PC users. It can't do anything but play music good. It's made for macs and for music only. The iPod video SUCKS. It can't play long videos, and the battery life is really horrible. The Creative Zen Vision M is way better. It's only $30 more than the iPod. It's made to do more than the iPod. And for your info, Creative was making mp3 players before Apple even thought about making one. Why don't you do some research. The only thing about the ipod is that it's sleek and sexy. The Creative Vision M is also sexy, but a little thick. It has better video quality. It's easier to add songs, videos, etc.. to it. Unlike an Ipod, it doesn't require any software, it's USB plug n' play. It's compatible with almost all subscription services. Go Creative!
I own both iPod and Zen Vision:M PMPs. The sound and video quality on both are almost the same. I couldn't say which is better, because both sound great, regardless. The video, however is 1/10 better on my Zen, so I prefer it over iPod, not to mention that mine came with the av-out port already and all I needed to do was plug my camera's av-out cable to it and works perfectly on all TVs i've plugged it to (highest at 720x480@30fps). As for the iPod, I need to get an extra adapter for this, which I most likely will not do, so i can't compare tv-playback... also I don't want to bother converting to mp4, so zen is better on that.
As for car mobility, I am forced to use an FM transmitter on both players on my Honda CR-V, but on my Mazda pickup truck I plug it directly to the USB and Aux ports. the USB port reads the iPod as iPod, but the Creative as an external drive, however the sound quality s better from the Aux port and this is what makes it better with the zen's remote control, and handy too, since I don't like over reaching to the radio.
As for problems I've had with each player type:
iPod: it sometimes crashes and I have to wait until the battery dies until I can reboot it for it to work again. although the scrolling wheel is nice, the button itself is a tad more trouble to push at times at least with large fingers, since I sometimes touch the very sensitive scrolling wheel and I end up choosing the wrong thing. I guess it takes a bit extra practice.
Zen Vision:M: It crashes at times with my creed albums.... which is weird, because that's the only time it's ever crashed... but you can easily solve it by pressing the reset button and in 2 minutes tops, you are back to rocking.... I can't think of anything else... once you adjust the sensitivity of the scrolling pane, it's too simple. Oh, I guess the only problem I have is that it doesn't load on my Mac, unless you set a "removable disk" space under Extras (basically, it works as a flash drive of up to 16GB**on mine at least). You can then transfer video, audio, photos or whatever to other computers, so that is extremely useful, at least to me it is.
All in all, for the mear 3000+ songs I have, either works great, but because my zen looks cheaper and sturdier (safer on 3rd world countries), and even though my zen is also a refurbished one, this is my player of choice. My iPod is great, but I will give it away to my younger brother, only so it won't collect more dust. Zen 4 out of 5, iPod 3 out of 5.
did that help anyone? oh, btw: i love both mac and pcs, depending on the use, so it has nothing to do with windows or mac lover issue. only that better is better.